If someone commits an act against the eightfold path, can they still become enlightened?

searchingone

Say at one time in his youth, a man harms human beings, or sexual misconduct (say bestiality) or something else that goes against the principles of buddhism. Then years later he realizes that he has made errors in his ways (for whatever reason) and begins taking buddhism very seriously. Does he still stand a chance of enlightenment, or is he going to experience an unfavourable rebirth?

Also, on the subject of the rebirths: I understand some buddhists believe that the rebirths and worlds like the Naraka are literal and some are states of mind. If a person had commited something that was wrong and it causes him grief, suffering and utmost regret, could this be seen as s form of non-literal variation of the rebirths, and that his internal/external conflicts could be seen as his time in that 'Hell' before the realization and pain and hopes to better himself and do good from now on come in? Could that change of attitude on life be seen arguably as a rebirth in itself, since all things are everchanging?





We were having a discussion like this at uni during a debate on Buddhism and Christian attitudes towards right and wrong on these subjects. In christianity the man may go to hell or if he embraces god and confesses and seeks self improovement he can go on to a peaceful rest.

federica

Yes.
http://angulimala.org.uk/the-story-of-angulimala/

Angulimala broke every one of the 8fold path conditions, and probably a whole load of precepts.

He got on ok.

poptart

There is no "sin" as such in Buddhism, only unskilful actions. Doing wrong causes negative karma which has to be paid out in some way. We can undo the effects of karma by becoming more skilful in our actions.

Your idea of rebirth seems to be confused with the Christian notion of being "born again". The ultimate aim of practice is to reach a stage of enlightenment where you do not ever have to be reborn, so in a sense changing your lifestyle to live more skilfully will help you toward that end, but I don't know if that can be called rebirth in the true sense.

Cinorjer

Agree with both previous posters. What is sometimes ignored is that Buddha taught a way to free oneself from the wheel of karma.

caz

Angulimala nuff said.

Spaceless

This christian is living in extra staunch hallucination. therefore they will disregard all belief and non beliefs system. And their system of belief is same as islam but they will never reconcile islam. By and large in present era and historically, they never acknowledge all beings are God, but inferior to God as heavenly beings. In buddhism, only Buddha is errless, even bodhisavattas of equal enlightenment, a slight one degree to buddhaness is regarded as err. be love be relax and be enlightened

patbb

8 fold path is a guideline for things to do to allow you to find peace and self-realization (realizing who you truly are and how things work in a very direct way).

just like

if you want to learn physic and get your phd, you should:
1. go to school
2. study hard
3. etc...
4. etc...

if you want to learn how your mind work, who you are and see and realize what the Buddha was talking about, you should:
1. Right View
2. Right Intention
3. Right Speech
4. etc...

seeker242

The story of Milarepa is a good one too. It says yes.

Spaceless

you should not has a slightest thought against 8 fold path, its purely loving kindness :thumbsup:

Spaceless

you should not has a slightest thought against 8 fold path, its purely loving kindness :thumbsup:

And you ought to awareness of people taking your compassion for granted before your complete fruition into wholesome 8 fold path. liberate them as and when needed at time you need to be like christian way of approach as it really benefit them cause they have buddha nature and will become buddha.

searchingone

Ok, so say I did something along the lines of what I said earlier in my initial post and felt thoroughly disgusted with myself for it. What would a buddhist perspective tell me to do exactly? I go to a buddhist group every thursday, but nothing on the grounds of morality is ever brought up in discussion. How would someone live free of the regrets of these pasts in the buddhist mindset?

person

WHAT CAN I DO TO REMOVE PREVIOUS NEGATIVE KARMA?
Nobody likes to suffer, so we all like to rid ourselves of negative karmic potential.
There are several possibilities, and in fact we may need to try and apply all of these methods as much as we can:

To avoid having negative thoughts that lead to negative actions in the future, we need to observe and control our own thoughts and behaviour, and destroy our negative attitudes.
Similarly, we can observe/study (meditate) our own mind and encourage positive thoughts that lead to positive actions.
We can avoid negative karmic seeds to ripen by purifying it, using the four powers of purification (see below). Although this does not eliminate the negative karmic actions, it can avoid the results to occur.
Ultimately, when we realise emptiness directly (see the page on Wisdom), and remove all our delusions, we are not under the control of past karma anymore.
THE FOUR POWERS OF PURIFICATION
The purification practices found within Buddhism are not unlike the practices applied in many other religions. The most essential mental factor that one requires is sincerity or honesty with oneself. When one wants to purify past negative karma, one has to do some action with the correct motivation.
This is summarised in the following Four Powers of Purification:

Power of the Object: One should practice thinking of all sentient beings one may have hurt. Traditionally, one remembers all sentient beings and the Three Jewels of Refuge (Buddha, Dharma and Sangha), by generating compassion for all sentient beings and taking refuge.
Power of Regret: This should not be senseless guilt or self-recrimination, which are said to be useless emotional torture. What is intended here is to examine oneself and one's actions and to recognise that negative actions done in the past were very unwise.
Power of Promise: As a logical consequence of the above, one should promise not to repeat these negative actions. It is good if one can promise to avoid a negative behaviour for a specific time, or at least promise that one will put effort in avoiding repetition. Not being honest at this stage makes the practice useless or even harmful to oneself.
Power of Practice: Basically any positive action with a good motivation can be used as practice. Traditionally in Buddhism, one can practice e.g. making prostrations (throwing oneself to the floor - as a means to destroy pride), making offerings (to counteract greed), reading Buddhist texts (to counteract ignorance and negative thoughts), reciting mantras etc.
It is often explained that one needs to clear a field by purifying it from rocks and weeds, then planting seeds by study and meditation, giving water and fertiliser by doing positive actions, and automatically new harvest will grow.

http://viewonbuddhism.org/karma.html

Jason

Say at one time in his youth, a man harms human beings, or sexual misconduct (say bestiality) or something else that goes against the principles of buddhism. Then years later he realizes that he has made errors in his ways (for whatever reason) and begins taking buddhism very seriously. Does he still stand a chance of enlightenment, or is he going to experience an unfavourable rebirth?

From the Theravada point of view, the answer is yes, unless they've committed one of the five henious actions (anantarika-kamma ): killing one's mother or father, killing an arahant, injuring a Buddha, and causing a schism in the Sangha. According to tradition, they weight of these actions is so heavy it obstructs one from achieving nibbana in their present life, and almost assuring an unpleasant rebirth (e.g., see the stories of Ajatasattu, Devadatta, etc.). They're able to achieve awaking in subsequent lives, however.

Also, on the subject of the rebirths: I understand some buddhists believe that the rebirths and worlds like the Naraka are literal and some are states of mind. If a person had commited something that was wrong and it causes him grief, suffering and utmost regret, could this be seen as s form of non-literal variation of the rebirths, and that his internal/external conflicts could be seen as his time in that 'Hell' before the realization and pain and hopes to better himself and do good from now on come in? Could that change of attitude on life be seen arguably as a rebirth in itself, since all things are everchanging?

Sure, that's entirely consistent with the teachings on rebirth (punabhava, literally 'again becoming'), which is portrayed as both a mental process in the here and now and one that operates throughout consecutive lives.

In Buddhism, samsara (literally 'wandering on') can be interpreted two ways — the continual cycle of death and rebirth of beings, or the continual cycle of death and rebirth of the conceit 'I am,' the self-identification that designates a being (satta) — and they're not mutually exclusive. In addition, many take these teachings metaphorically. For example, when the Buddha talks about hell (niraya), he's often talking about unpleasant or painful painful mental feelings "like those of the beings in hell" (AN 4.235).

Personally, I think the Buddha held a more nuanced position than a lot traditionalists believe. For example, David Kalupahana notes in his book, Buddhist Philosophy, that:

A careful study of these concepts of heaven and hell, gods and evil spirits, reveals that they were accepted in Buddhism as regulative ideas or concepts only. The fact that they are merely theories based on speculation is well brought out it certain statements by the Buddha. To a Brahman who questioned the Buddha as to whether there are gods, he replied, "It is not so." When asked whether there are no gods, the Buddha's reply was the same, "It is not so." And finally to the Brahman who was baffled by these replies, the Buddha said, "The world, O Brahman, is loud in agreement that there are gods" (ucce sammatam kho etam brahmana lokasmin yadidam atthi devati). The same is the attitude of the Buddha with regard to the concept of hell. In the Samyutta-nikaya he is represented as saying that it is only the uneducated ordinary man (assutava puthujjano) who believes that there is a hell beneath the great ocean. According to the Buddha's view, hell is another name for unpleasant feelings (dukkha vedana). [The first reference is MN 2.213, the second is S 4.206]

Just something to think about, anyway.

Dakini

Ok, so say I did something along the lines of what I said earlier in my initial post and felt thoroughly disgusted with myself for it. What would a buddhist perspective tell me to do exactly? I go to a buddhist group every thursday, but nothing on the grounds of morality is ever brought up in discussion. How would someone live free of the regrets of these pasts in the buddhist mindset?

First of all, bestiality isn't against any precept. Are you from a Christian background?

How to live free of regrets is up to you. Regret is in the mind. It has nothing to do with precepts or morality. If you've made mistakes in your life, you just keep on living your life, and observing the precepts as best you can. You may consider devoting yourself to helping others. That would help. There's a film of the first half of Milarepa's life that you can buy or rent. If Milarepa can turn over a new leaf (and become a saint), anyone can.

vinlyn

First of all, bestiality isn't against any precept. Are you from a Christian background?

I think many of us would disagree with that.

Jeffrey

From the White Lotus of Great Compassion Sutra:

This world is produced by karma; this manifests by means of karma. All sentient beings are produced by karma; they appear through the cause of karma; they are fully classified by karma.

From page 119 of the Jewel Ornament of Liberation:

Generally, all eight of these actual meditative concentrations are based on a one-pointed virtuous mind.
This explanation of the karma and result of unshakeable meditative concentration. The Precious Jewel Garland says:

By the infinite meditative concentration and formlessness, One will experience the bliss of Brahma and so forth.

Therefore the creators of samsara are the three afflicted karmas.

III. Ascription. This third category, ascription of karma, means that you experience the results of the karma you create. Results will ripen in the skandas related to the actor, and not to others. The Collective Abhidharma says:

What does the ascription of karma mean? One experiences the maturation of the karma one has created. It is uncommon to others and, so, is called ascription.

If that were not the case, the karma that was created could be wasted or there could be the danger of facing a result that one had not created. Therefore, in the sutra it says:

That karma that is created by Devadatta will not mature in the earth, water, and so forth. But that karma will ripen in the skandas and ayatana of that particular individual. To whom else would the karma result?

Therefore you should quickly cease to stop creating negative karma.

Jeffrey

*a man or woman should cease

TheFound

the past is in the past, you have been reborn since then. You aren't the same even if you wanted to be. That being said you still have to be responsible enough to learn from the past...once you are sincere about learning and changing for the better, you can let go of any guilt, and are cleansed... ask yourself...what's memory for?...what's guilt for?...hmmm?

Dakini

If a person had commited something that was wrong and it causes him grief, suffering and utmost regret, could this be seen as s form of non-literal variation of the rebirths, and that his internal/external conflicts could be seen as his time in that 'Hell' before the realization and pain and hopes to better himself and do good from now on

They say that suffering burns off bad karma. At least, that's what the Tibetans say. It's that simple. Doesn't have to get into any fancy theory about hells. Learn from your mistakes. Move forward. Remember, life is fleeting, you could die tomorrow, so time is short. Live every day as if it were your last chance to make good.

patbb

If someone commits an act against the eightfold path, can they still become enlightened?

i think if you've never done anything bad at all (which is unlikely to be possible) the you couldn't get enlighten.

At least it would be very difficult to gain wisdom and relate to anyone.

searchingone

so if someone causes the suffering of others and feels a conscience for it, be it anything from assault, mugging, theft or hurting others, then in some ways, does the suffering of guilt and self torment contribute to karma that we should liberate ourself, or does it burn up karma that we have that is negative.

I suppose one thought (if Im not mistaken) is that the suffering of guilt in our misdeeds is the negative rebirth, and then when we pick ourselves up and move on, we have been reborn?

Jason

so if someone causes the suffering of others and feels a conscience for it, be it anything from assault, mugging, theft or hurting others, then in some ways, does the suffering of guilt and self torment contribute to karma that we should liberate ourself, or does it burn up karma that we have that is negative.

From the Theravadin perspective, I'd say it's more the former. (For example, see my blog post on conscience and concern.)

lamaramadingdong

Following the Eight-Fold Path doesn't lead to enlightenment, it is enlightenment.

person

so if someone causes the suffering of others and feels a conscience for it, be it anything from assault, mugging, theft or hurting others, then in some ways, does the suffering of guilt and self torment contribute to karma that we should liberate ourself, or does it burn up karma that we have that is negative.

I suppose one thought (if Im not mistaken) is that the suffering of guilt in our misdeeds is the negative rebirth, and then when we pick ourselves up and move on, we have been reborn?

The guilt and self torment aren't burning off negative karma. They are a self inflicted pain in addition to any karmic suffering. There's some analogy the Buddha taught where this type of mental anguish is like someone who gets hit with a dart and then instead of just suffering that one dart also gets hit with a second.

One view of karma is that a past action will return to you in a similar manner. So punching someone in the nose would be returned to you by also getting it in the nose. Maybe just the physical karma could come in the form of banging your face into a wall on accident and the mental aggression could occur seperately. But tormenting yourself about it isn't a ripening of that karma its an additional pain you are putting on yourself.

I posted earlier about ways to counteract negative karma to lessen its outcome, so there are actual constructive things that can be done.

Bekenze

First of all, bestiality isn't against any precept. Are you from a Christian background?

I think many of us would disagree with that.

This is interesting. Are there any sutra references saying anything about bestiality either way, condoning or condemning? Or does it just say nothing?

Dakini

Nothing. Sexual misconduct is defined as not-harming, and not engaging with people who are already in a relationship (or married), not having sex with women under the care of their parents, not having sex with monastics, and so forth.

vinlyn

Nothing. Sexual misconduct is defined as not-harming, and not engaging with people who are already in a relationship (or married), not having sex with women under the care of their parents, not having sex with monastics, and so forth.

I would expand that to being sexual misconduct if you commit a sex act without the consent of the other being.

searchingone

we were having a debate recently in my friends group about this. Personally I know Ive been in a few fights when I was younger so I guess some of my karma may come back to me in some form.

See I got curious on the bestiality point simply because I recently became aware of a pro-zoophilia and bestiality movement, and wondered how that stacks up with beliefs in Buddhism

Mountains

...he can go on to a peaceful rest.

How boring.