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To me, it's sort of like the scales of justice. Where is the balance?
Have you ever watched the film "Judgment At Nuremberg"? It's an exception theatrical film. It addresses your question directly, as the one trail focuses rather specifically on one immensely respected judge who began the slippery slope down as he did follow the general guidelines of the Third Reich. So on those scales of justice, wouldn't the positive karma of years on the bench pre-Hitler, be rather wiped out as he began sentencing innocent people to death or sterilization?
Did you ever hear of the impressionist David Frye...Watergate era? He put out an LP one time, and one of segments was "Nelson Rockefeller in heaven." Rockefeller's being interviewed about what heaven is like, and he says he recently met Hitler in heaven, and that he was a changed man. Wears penny loafers and cardigan sweaters. Wonderful person now.
@vinlyn, hmmm searching my memory banks. It seems you are mixing morality and Buddhism. Of course one of the 6 paramitas is ethics or as one member called it duty. And I am sure that the Nazis did not have duty to the Dharma. So you make good point. The sidhis (occult abilities) don't matter too much in Buddhism other than as exercises on the path of wisdom and compassion; we were saying Hitler was an occultist. I truly do not know, but I will share my idea of karma. They are seeds which all eventually sprout. Your idea that black seeds cancel out white seeds is new to me. Couldn't white seeds also cancel out black seeds? So if Hitler tends to the needs of a hell being (Bodhisattva), then he could create white seeds, which is very hard to do in hell. See how the cosmology of Tibetan Buddhism is part of the mind training?
May all beings be free of suffering and the causes of suffering...
Forgot a part briefly Bodhisattvas will go into hell to help all beings.
@vinlyn, hmmm searching my memory banks. It seems you are mixing morality and Buddhism. Of course one of the 6 paramitas is ethics or as one member called it duty. And I am sure that the Nazis did not have duty to the Dharma. So you make good point. The sidhis (occult abilities) don't matter too much in Buddhism other than as exercises on the path of wisdom and compassion; we were saying Hitler was an occultist. I truly do not know, but I will share my idea of karma. They are seeds which all eventually sprout. Your idea that black seeds cancel out white seeds is new to me. Couldn't white seeds also cancel out black seeds? So if Hitler tends to the needs of a hell being (Bodhisattva?), then he could create white seeds, which is very hard to do in hell. See how the cosmology of Tibetan Buddhism is part of the mind training?
May all beings be free of suffering and the causes of suffering...
Yes, I am mixing morality and Buddhism, because I see Buddhism as one of the great human schools of morality.
As far as white seeds canceling out black seeds (or vice versa), I guess I don't see it that way. After all, many Italians justified Mussolini's rule by saying, "But he made the trains run on time." What could Hitler have done -- during his lifetime -- to cancel out the murder of an estimated 11 million people?
We had a member who found Buddhism in prison. He eventually left the forum because it was hurting him and his teachers advised him to leave. So I guess for him a forum was hard even a person who practiced Buddhism in jail!
What could Hitler have done -- during his lifetime -- to cancel out the murder of an estimated 11 million people?
And much of the murder was done with such strong intent, very methodically. And he didn't repent. (Repent for what? He believed he was doing good in the world, improving the world's genetic base.) He committed suicide simply to deny the enemy the satisfaction of killing him.
@Jeffrey A member's teachers advised him to leave the forum? Why? When was this?
We can have compassion for him for being so delusional, but yes. His thing was to eliminate people with inferior genes: Jews, gypsies, gays, the mentally handicapped. Actually "eugenics" was all the rage in roughly the 1st half of the 20th Century. It got much of its start in California. I read that the Rockefeller Foundation was behind it, and gave the Nazi regime grants in the beginning, to do studies. Back then in the US, Black and Native American women were being sterilized against their will. In that respect, to some extent Hitler was a product of his time, though obviously he took everything to unimaginable ghastly extremes.
re: the member who quit on advice of his teacher--anger? Seeds of anger? Was it a rough crowd here when he was around? This place has seen mellow times and tense times, ebb and flow.
re: the member who quit on advice of his teacher--anger? Seeds of anger? Was it a rough crowd here when he was around? This place has seen mellow times and tense times, ebb and flow.
How sad and ironic that visiting a Buddhist forum became counterproductive to his practice! I find that bizarrely samsaric, too! :' (
I just looked up the history of eugenics, and found that not only did the Nazi regime exterminate people, they performed 450,000 forced sterilizations in less than 10 years.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
Should Hitler and his immediate deputies be held responsible? Should the workers who were in the concentration camps who turned on the gas showers or tortured prisoners or cremated corpses be held responsible? Should those who enthusiastically attended mass rallies and those who supported Hitler in newspapers be held responsible? Should those who simply turned their backs and pretended not to know be held responsible?
I am reminded by your last line, of this quotation:
First they came for the communists, and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist. Then they came for the Jews, and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Jew. Then they came for me and there was no one left to speak out for me.
(attributed to pastor Martin Niemöller (1892–1984) )
fundamentally, all who observed, and knew how terribly, terribly wrong it was, and did nothing are as responsible as those who perpetrated the crimes. There's also a difference between 'Guilt' and 'Responsibility', to my mind.....
Yes my first sangha was aol buddhist chat. People have different needs and personal karma, their environment.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
How sad and ironic that visiting a Buddhist forum became counterproductive to his practice! I find that bizarrely samsaric, too! :' (
I just looked up the history of eugenics, and found that not only did the Nazi regime exterminate people, they performed 450,000 forced sterilizations in less than 10 years.
Reminds me of the Chinese with Tibetan girls... oh dear, this thread has a bitter flavour....
Should Hitler and his immediate deputies be held responsible? Should the workers who were in the concentration camps who turned on the gas showers or tortured prisoners or cremated corpses be held responsible? Should those who enthusiastically attended mass rallies and those who supported Hitler in newspapers be held responsible? Should those who simply turned their backs and pretended not to know be held responsible?
I am reminded by your last line, of this quotation:
First they came for the communists, and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist. Then they came for the Jews, and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Jew. Then they came for me and there was no one left to speak out for me.
(attributed to pastor Martin Niemöller (1892–1984) )
fundamentally, all who observed, and knew how terribly, terribly wrong it was, and did nothing are as responsible as those who perpetrated the crimes. There's also a difference between 'Guilt' and 'Responsibility', to my mind.....
Yes, I love Niemoller's writing. I used that very quote in a "reader's theatre" I wrote for our school called "Who Will Answer". It was very well received.
I once saw (don't remember where...some movie or t.v. show) a discussion where they asked a German how they could not have known what was happening, when they could see thousands and thousands of people sent into the concentration camp in their village, a rather small area, but no one ever coming out. They thoughtfully turned a blind eye.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
Well...American is a label, too. Am I responsible for the bombing and killing of Iraqis, Afghans, Pakistanis and others unless I renounce my citizenship? I've been tempted to. On the other hand, if I renounce my citizenship, I can't vote, and have less chance of affecting America.
John Rabe was a Nazi who established the "Nanking Safety Zone" in China, saving an estimated 200,000 Chinese citizens from likely slaughter during WWII.
It's just impossible to know the whole story by looking at a label; you really have to look at the individual and his/her actions. I'm not saying labels provide no information, but they really don't provide enough information alone to judge someone's morality.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
Well...American is a label, too. Am I responsible for the bombing and killing of Iraqis, Afghans, Pakistanis and others unless I renounce my citizenship?
The point is, none of this is happening in your front yard, right under your nose. you vote and make your feelings felt, and that's commendable. But my personal point is that, when you can have a direct, physical presence and influence, or at least engineer an response to what is going on, which could make a difference - and you don't - then you shouldn't be able to sleep at night....
Yes - definitely agree there are (or feel like there are) different levels of responsibility, depending on the exact conditions.
I feel, though, that Americans should be--and should have been all this time--rioting in the streets from the moment we invaded Iraq. I know the reasons we haven't are many, and complex; but the reasons the average German kept going about his/her business were many and complex, too.
Many Germans didn't know about the concentrations camps (plenty did, but plenty didn't) until after the war; I can't hold them accountable for the camps, at least. Yet I not only know about the illegal and immoral bombing of Iraqis, I feel strongly that we should be in the streets, and yet even I am not in the streets. At some point you just say, "I can't possibly do anything about this."
But, underneath it all, I really believe we can. Or at least I'd sleep better at night if I were trying harder. An additional factor in the modern, super-connected world, is that there are just so, SO many issues to work on; maybe we gravitate towards ones on which we believe we can have a greater effect?
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
"When we want to change the world, we should start with a small garden..."
Well...American is a label, too. Am I responsible for the bombing and killing of Iraqis, Afghans, Pakistanis and others unless I renounce my citizenship? I've been tempted to. On the other hand, if I renounce my citizenship, I can't vote, and have less chance of affecting America.
John Rabe was a Nazi who established the "Nanking Safety Zone" in China, saving an estimated 200,000 Chinese citizens from likely slaughter during WWII.
It's just impossible to know the whole story by looking at a label; you really have to look at the individual and his/her actions. I'm not saying labels provide no information, but they really don't provide enough information alone to judge someone's morality.
I think that's a very fair question.
If you have ever written to your congressman or participated in a demonstration or contributed to a peace organization, etc., then I would say you took what action you could. If you have done nothing, then I would say you share in the responsibility at some level.
Many Germans didn't know about the concentrations camps (plenty did, but plenty didn't) until after the war; I can't hold them accountable for the camps, at least. Yet I not only know about the illegal and immoral bombing of Iraqis, I feel strongly that we should be in the streets, and yet even I am not in the streets. At some point you just say, "I can't possibly do anything about this."
That is true. But the Germans elected Hitler as a result of his frothing at the mouth about topics such as Jews, etc. He wasn't subtle about hate, and they ate that up.
What did John Rabe do for the Jews? I suspect that from the Jewish perspective, the label was relevant, appropriate and accurately indicative of a certain morality.
In WWII the Japanese issued thousands of visas to Jews in Europe to help them escape. They felt the Jews were highly intelligent, and at one point there were plans to appoint Jews to govern Manchukuo, Japanese Manchuria. If the Chinese had known, it wouldn't have changed their opinion of the Japanese one iota. Human beings are complex and contradictory creatures. They can commit unspeakable atrocities one week, and a rare kindness another week. Then return to the main fare: more atrocities.
The problem is that the rabid, murderous person that comes to mind when we say "Nazi," does not describe all Nazis. Nazi just means "member of the National Socialist party." In our post-WWII frenzy, we've given it the same level of hype that my fellow Wisconsinite, McCarthy, gave to "communist."
Communists have killed easily 20 times the number of people killed in the Holocaust. 25 million in Russia, 65-80 million in China, 2 million in Cambodia, 1.2 million in Tibet, unknown millions in Africa. Yet no one today assigns the equivalent level of personal blame to a member of the Communist Party that we tend to assign to members of the National Socialist Party.
Simple party membership cannot possibly be the most important factor. In fact, because we now know, and have known for at least five decades, the incredible number of atrocities committed by members of the Communist Party, it might be safe to say that membership in today's Party would be more incriminating than a German's membership in the Nazi Party, since things in Germany were happening at such an incredible speed that it was impossible for all people to know exactly what was happening.
I really think people have to be judged on their own merits--their own actions, their own choices.
One interesting way to look at it might be from the victim's perspective: How does an Iraqi family feel about me, an American? How much blame do they assign me? How much blame does a Jewish Holocaust victim assign to German citizens, or to Nazi party members? How much blame does a Tibetan assign to a Chinese citizen, compared to the blame assigned to a member of the Chinese Communist Party?
How many of those people who smart at the word "Nazi" are aware there was a connection with Tibet, though? That's what I was referring to. Few people in the US know the Nazis studied the Kalachakra, Shambala and other Tibetan lore. It's a specialized field.
Even in Germany it wasn't well-known until a couple of blockbuster books were published in the last few years, outlining the DL's involvement with Nazi researchers who went to Tibet.
@Dakini - could I ask what the DL's involvement with Nazi researches refers to here? Are you talking about the Losar expeditions in '38 and '39?
The topic really isn't my bag, I've only come across references to it. Maybe "involvement" isn't the word, "contact" might be more accurate. It shouldn't be difficult to research, though.
The topic really isn't my bag, I've only come across references to it. Maybe "involvement" isn't the word, "contact" might be more accurate. It shouldn't be difficult to research, though.
But if two blockbuster books outlined the Dalai Lama's involvement with Nazi researchers, then what they were outlining was actually that actions of a three-year-old (if we're talking about the '38 expedition), or a 10-year-old at the very oldest (was there even an expedition in 1945?)
Contact or involvement, it smacks of an attempt to impune someone who wasn't really old enough to be impunable. My German teacher was a full-blown, enthusiastic member of the Hitler Youth, and no one casts aspersions on her involvement with Nazis at that age.
I think it's important to get to the bottom of this "Nazi-Dalai Lama" thing, because as we can tell from the OP, even though the allegations seem untenable, the overall effect has been (as intended) to make people think the Dalai Lama has "something to do with Nazis."
I agree. But he did have "something" to do with them. There must be info on this around the internet. Feel free to report back to us.
Youth movements are often how nationalist leaders come to power. I think that was discussed earlier on this thread. If we consider members of the Hitler youth innocent, then we must consider those who saw people being marched past their village to the camps but did nothing as equally innocent. These are fine lines, but important ones to some. On the other hand, we could also say that the youth were used and manipulated, their idealism taken advantage of. That's also true. These are very tricky issues.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
Youth movements are often how nationalist leaders come to power. I think that was discussed earlier on this thread. If we consider members of the Hitler youth innocent,
Really? How so? Is there a history there of youth bringing the papacy to power or helping maintain the power? (I know nothing on that score, you're our resident Catholicism expert. )
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
I was thinking more in terms of thinking of him as 'innocent'.....
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personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
The current Pope was an actual member the Hitler youth.
I agree. But he did have "something" to do with them. There must be info on this around the internet. Feel free to report back to us.
Youth movements are often how nationalist leaders come to power. I think that was discussed earlier on this thread. If we consider members of the Hitler youth innocent, then we must consider those who saw people being marched past their village to the camps but did nothing as equally innocent. These are fine lines, but important ones to some. On the other hand, we could also say that the youth were used and manipulated, their idealism taken advantage of. That's also true. These are very tricky issues.
How does an innocent child joining a youth group equate to grown men and women watching neighbors marched to their death?
The Dalai Lama was somewhere between 3 and 10 years old if/when there were any German researchers gasping their way up the Potala steps. If these mythical travelers had any influence on him whatsoever, then after six decades of dedicated and compassionate outreach on his part, we can only conclude it was a good influence.
The point is, that even if a horde of nameless Nazis forcibly took up residence in the Potala for the entire war, unbeknownst to anyone but the blockbuster authors, and drowned the infant Dalai Lama in Nazi propaganda, he turned into an incredibly decent man; therefore any attempt to criticize the child for his unsolicited "Nazi connection" is in this case, moot several times over. In fact, you could even say he deserves even more credit, not less.
Obviously the more likely story is that the system in which he was raised--plus his own family, and his own character--is responsible for the man he turned out to be.
You seem upset by this thesis that the Dalai Lama is some sort of Nazi sympathizer, @Sile. No one on this forum holds that view that I'm aware of. Perhaps you'd feel better addressing your concern to whomever has written about it.
You seem upset by this thesis that the Dalai Lama is some sort of Nazi sympathizer, @Sile. No one on this forum holds that view that I'm aware of. Perhaps you'd feel better addressing your concern to whomever has written about it.
Not at all - just examining the logic (or lack thereof) in the argument when it's broken down into its various components (the age of the child in question, the effect of the alleged contact, etc.)
The current Pope was an actual member the Hitler youth.
Now *that's* a doozy.
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personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
The current Pope was an actual member the Hitler youth.
Its a well known fact among the followers. It created quite the kerfuffle when they were considering who the new pope would be.
I think it goes to show that association with an organization, particularly as a youth, doesn't equate to a belief in its doctrine. Or at least that people can learn and change.
How many of those people who smart at the word "Nazi" are aware there was a connection with Tibet, though? That's what I was referring to. Few people in the US know the Nazis studied the Kalachakra, Shambala and other Tibetan lore. It's a specialized field.
Even in Germany it wasn't well-known until a couple of blockbuster books were published in the last few years, outlining the DL's involvement with Nazi researchers who went to Tibet.
Do you have either/both of the titles for these books, @Dakini? Or a general idea--just need a place to start in looking them up. "Nazi" + "Dalai Lama" just brings up all the usual Chinese sites so far.
I had no idea the Chinese were into propaganda about that. I go through so much material on the internet, it's hard to say. There's one book, but it's in German, I've read reviews of it somewhere. Colin Goldner, "Dalai Lama: Fall of a God-King" (Dalai Lama: Fall Eines Gott-Konigs") It's sold on Amazon, pricey, though.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
The current Pope was an actual member the Hitler youth.
!!! :eek: Any more tidbits about him you'd care to share?
It's * alleged* he has a Swiss bank account...... But it's also a well-known fact that the Vatican helped many German high-powered officers to hide several enormous sums of money through the Vatican.
"Holy money-laundering, Vat-man!"
there are many, many unclaimed bank accounts in Switzerland belonging to people who transferred their fortunes there, at the start of WWII. Many of these probably belong to high members of the Nazi party.....
W.C. Fields opened so many, under several pseudonyms, nobody knows anything about them, or even what could be done with them, if they found out which ones they were.... It's believed some of them are also in Switzerland.
Comedian W.C. Fields had secretive bank accounts around the world, some of which were never found because Fields had opened them in fictitious names and kept no records. It is estimated that about $600,000 of his money was never found
What did Nazi ideologues look for in India, and what did they find ?
n their eyes the classical culture of India was a reserve in which knowledge of an Aryan stem civilisation was supposed to have survived. Indian writings furnished them with the religious bases for a cruel warrior religion and an inhuman ethic for the conduct of war. They saw the Indian caste system as providing a social orientation model that fitted their racialist ideology. They linked the Indian idea of the “global ruler” to their own “Führer principle” and applied it to Hitler. From the Tantric systems of India and Tibet they developed their own fascist sexual theory.
What did Nazi ideologues look for in India, and what did they find ?
n their eyes the classical culture of India was a reserve in which knowledge of an Aryan stem civilisation was supposed to have survived. Indian writings furnished them with the religious bases for a cruel warrior religion and an inhuman ethic for the conduct of war. They saw the Indian caste system as providing a social orientation model that fitted their racialist ideology. They linked the Indian idea of the “global ruler” to their own “Führer principle” and applied it to Hitler. From the Tantric systems of India and Tibet they developed their own fascist sexual theory.
Do you know how this ties into the Dalai Lama, though, Thao? He wasn't old enough to be imparting any teachings on any of this during the Nazi era.
I see a lot of "they" did this and "they" did that, without references to who did or didn't come to Tibet, and how the infant/child Dalai Lama was somehow responsible for the Nazi system.
It's implied that the Nazis formed their system based on information gathered in Tibet; that would point then to the Nazis being in Tibe before Naziism was formed, which would mean in the 1930s. The Dalai Lama didn't even have his grown-up teeth yet.
Yes, the "global ruler" is the Cakravartin spoken of in the Kalachakra Tantra. For some of their in-depth info they may have studied with the DL's tutor. No one has said the Dl is responsible for the Nazi system, that's outrageous, Sile. The Nazis are responsible for the Nazi system. It is not implied anywhere that they formed their system based on the info gathered in Tibet. What this is about is that they looked for mythology or ancient texts (the Vedas, for ex.) to justify their fixation on an Aryan race, and perhaps to evolve their own mythology based on ancient Aryan mythology. Somewhere just recently I came across a similar statement to Thao's about what the Nazis found in Buddhism, something about a cruel warrior system (possibly referring to the Kalachakra again, I didn't look into it. I was kind of shocked, actually.) This sounds like a really good research project.
Comments
Have you ever watched the film "Judgment At Nuremberg"? It's an exception theatrical film. It addresses your question directly, as the one trail focuses rather specifically on one immensely respected judge who began the slippery slope down as he did follow the general guidelines of the Third Reich. So on those scales of justice, wouldn't the positive karma of years on the bench pre-Hitler, be rather wiped out as he began sentencing innocent people to death or sterilization?
Did you ever hear of the impressionist David Frye...Watergate era? He put out an LP one time, and one of segments was "Nelson Rockefeller in heaven." Rockefeller's being interviewed about what heaven is like, and he says he recently met Hitler in heaven, and that he was a changed man. Wears penny loafers and cardigan sweaters. Wonderful person now.
May all beings be free of suffering and the causes of suffering...
Forgot a part briefly Bodhisattvas will go into hell to help all beings.
As far as white seeds canceling out black seeds (or vice versa), I guess I don't see it that way. After all, many Italians justified Mussolini's rule by saying, "But he made the trains run on time." What could Hitler have done -- during his lifetime -- to cancel out the murder of an estimated 11 million people?
@Jeffrey A member's teachers advised him to leave the forum? Why? When was this?
But you'd have to ask him. Maybe you could discuss about his practice and his teacher?
re: the member who quit on advice of his teacher--anger? Seeds of anger? Was it a rough crowd here when he was around? This place has seen mellow times and tense times, ebb and flow.
I just looked up the history of eugenics, and found that not only did the Nazi regime exterminate people, they performed 450,000 forced sterilizations in less than 10 years.
fundamentally, all who observed, and knew how terribly, terribly wrong it was, and did nothing are as responsible as those who perpetrated the crimes.
There's also a difference between 'Guilt' and 'Responsibility', to my mind.....
oh dear, this thread has a bitter flavour....
I once saw (don't remember where...some movie or t.v. show) a discussion where they asked a German how they could not have known what was happening, when they could see thousands and thousands of people sent into the concentration camp in their village, a rather small area, but no one ever coming out. They thoughtfully turned a blind eye.
http://newbuddhist.com/discussion/14297/so-much-ignorance#Item_0
John Rabe was a Nazi who established the "Nanking Safety Zone" in China, saving an estimated 200,000 Chinese citizens from likely slaughter during WWII.
It's just impossible to know the whole story by looking at a label; you really have to look at the individual and his/her actions. I'm not saying labels provide no information, but they really don't provide enough information alone to judge someone's morality.
you vote and make your feelings felt, and that's commendable. But my personal point is that, when you can have a direct, physical presence and influence, or at least engineer an response to what is going on, which could make a difference - and you don't - then you shouldn't be able to sleep at night....
I feel, though, that Americans should be--and should have been all this time--rioting in the streets from the moment we invaded Iraq. I know the reasons we haven't are many, and complex; but the reasons the average German kept going about his/her business were many and complex, too.
Many Germans didn't know about the concentrations camps (plenty did, but plenty didn't) until after the war; I can't hold them accountable for the camps, at least. Yet I not only know about the illegal and immoral bombing of Iraqis, I feel strongly that we should be in the streets, and yet even I am not in the streets. At some point you just say, "I can't possibly do anything about this."
But, underneath it all, I really believe we can. Or at least I'd sleep better at night if I were trying harder. An additional factor in the modern, super-connected world, is that there are just so, SO many issues to work on; maybe we gravitate towards ones on which we believe we can have a greater effect?
If you have ever written to your congressman or participated in a demonstration or contributed to a peace organization, etc., then I would say you took what action you could. If you have done nothing, then I would say you share in the responsibility at some level.
In WWII the Japanese issued thousands of visas to Jews in Europe to help them escape. They felt the Jews were highly intelligent, and at one point there were plans to appoint Jews to govern Manchukuo, Japanese Manchuria. If the Chinese had known, it wouldn't have changed their opinion of the Japanese one iota. Human beings are complex and contradictory creatures. They can commit unspeakable atrocities one week, and a rare kindness another week. Then return to the main fare: more atrocities.
Communists have killed easily 20 times the number of people killed in the Holocaust. 25 million in Russia, 65-80 million in China, 2 million in Cambodia, 1.2 million in Tibet, unknown millions in Africa. Yet no one today assigns the equivalent level of personal blame to a member of the Communist Party that we tend to assign to members of the National Socialist Party.
Simple party membership cannot possibly be the most important factor. In fact, because we now know, and have known for at least five decades, the incredible number of atrocities committed by members of the Communist Party, it might be safe to say that membership in today's Party would be more incriminating than a German's membership in the Nazi Party, since things in Germany were happening at such an incredible speed that it was impossible for all people to know exactly what was happening.
I really think people have to be judged on their own merits--their own actions, their own choices.
Contact or involvement, it smacks of an attempt to impune someone who wasn't really old enough to be impunable. My German teacher was a full-blown, enthusiastic member of the Hitler Youth, and no one casts aspersions on her involvement with Nazis at that age.
I think it's important to get to the bottom of this "Nazi-Dalai Lama" thing, because as we can tell from the OP, even though the allegations seem untenable, the overall effect has been (as intended) to make people think the Dalai Lama has "something to do with Nazis."
Youth movements are often how nationalist leaders come to power. I think that was discussed earlier on this thread. If we consider members of the Hitler youth innocent, then we must consider those who saw people being marched past their village to the camps but did nothing as equally innocent. These are fine lines, but important ones to some. On the other hand, we could also say that the youth were used and manipulated, their idealism taken advantage of. That's also true. These are very tricky issues.
The Dalai Lama was somewhere between 3 and 10 years old if/when there were any German researchers gasping their way up the Potala steps. If these mythical travelers had any influence on him whatsoever, then after six decades of dedicated and compassionate outreach on his part, we can only conclude it was a good influence.
The point is, that even if a horde of nameless Nazis forcibly took up residence in the Potala for the entire war, unbeknownst to anyone but the blockbuster authors, and drowned the infant Dalai Lama in Nazi propaganda, he turned into an incredibly decent man; therefore any attempt to criticize the child for his unsolicited "Nazi connection" is in this case, moot several times over. In fact, you could even say he deserves even more credit, not less.
Obviously the more likely story is that the system in which he was raised--plus his own family, and his own character--is responsible for the man he turned out to be.
I think it goes to show that association with an organization, particularly as a youth, doesn't equate to a belief in its doctrine. Or at least that people can learn and change.
But it's also a well-known fact that the Vatican helped many German high-powered officers to hide several enormous sums of money through the Vatican.
"Holy money-laundering, Vat-man!"
there are many, many unclaimed bank accounts in Switzerland belonging to people who transferred their fortunes there, at the start of WWII. Many of these probably belong to high members of the Nazi party.....
W.C. Fields opened so many, under several pseudonyms, nobody knows anything about them, or even what could be done with them, if they found out which ones they were....
It's believed some of them are also in Switzerland. From here:
http://www.ehow.com/info_8222787_famous-wills.html
I see a lot of "they" did this and "they" did that, without references to who did or didn't come to Tibet, and how the infant/child Dalai Lama was somehow responsible for the Nazi system.
It's implied that the Nazis formed their system based on information gathered in Tibet; that would point then to the Nazis being in Tibe before Naziism was formed, which would mean in the 1930s. The Dalai Lama didn't even have his grown-up teeth yet.