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spiritual teachers as liars
genkaku
Northampton, Mass. U.S.A. Veteran
Today, I am doing a labor-intensive correcting of a book that contains the student recollections of the Zen teacher Soen Nakagawa Roshi ... primping in preparation for a presentation on the Internet. What was pdf format was translated into a Word document and in the process, the machine misread one thing and another that needs correction.
Most of the recollections are, as you might expect, pleasant, heart-felt and, to one degree or another, informative.
But one of the questions that crossed my mind this morning was this: Why is it, in spiritual endeavor, that we assume axiomatically that our gurus or teachers or whatever you want to call them are not (among other things) liars? Who is responsible for this axiom? How do we know we are right? Who says so?
I don't intend the question as some muck-raker's dream or cynic's delight. It's just that in pretty much any other daily venue, we leave the door open to the human capacity to lie. It's not cynicism ... just life. So on what basis do we close and lock the 'lying' door when it comes to spiritual bright lights? Why should they be accorded what we would not accord to other acquaintances and even friends?
I'm not so much interested in the heroes-with-feet-of-clay syndrome. I'm just curious at what I think of as a peculiar -- if human -- unwillingness. Is it possibly that we seek our own true truth and are sick of the lies we ourselves can tell?
I don't know. What do you think?
Most of the recollections are, as you might expect, pleasant, heart-felt and, to one degree or another, informative.
But one of the questions that crossed my mind this morning was this: Why is it, in spiritual endeavor, that we assume axiomatically that our gurus or teachers or whatever you want to call them are not (among other things) liars? Who is responsible for this axiom? How do we know we are right? Who says so?
I don't intend the question as some muck-raker's dream or cynic's delight. It's just that in pretty much any other daily venue, we leave the door open to the human capacity to lie. It's not cynicism ... just life. So on what basis do we close and lock the 'lying' door when it comes to spiritual bright lights? Why should they be accorded what we would not accord to other acquaintances and even friends?
I'm not so much interested in the heroes-with-feet-of-clay syndrome. I'm just curious at what I think of as a peculiar -- if human -- unwillingness. Is it possibly that we seek our own true truth and are sick of the lies we ourselves can tell?
I don't know. What do you think?
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Comments
then, if that doesn't kick in, what resonates.....?
what of what they say or write, gives you one...two...maybe more.... 'ahaaah!' moments?
what sounds right?
What makes sense?
to me, anyway......
Noone likes to see cracks in the foundations - perhaps its preferable to just plaster over the cracks.
I guess also, the assumption is that though teachers may be mistaken or misguided, they would not actively seek to lie - if this were not true, then who could you believe? In essence, people place 'faith' in their teachers...
I also like your interpretation that we are all too aware how easy it is to lie and perhaps in a spiritual journey dont wish to focus on this point otherwise it detracts from the purity or truth of the message being transmitted.
Its quite a powerful thought leading you back to 'yourself'...
And really, we assign this role to people who are telling us what we want to hear and why would we not believe this person is telling the truth, if it's also what we want to hear?
Certainly some leaders, gurus or whomever, have been exposed as liars in some form. The reaction to that is also emotional, a feeling of betrayal on one hand and simple disbelief in the evidence on the other. Human nature. Buddhists are as human as anyone else in how we interact with each other.
Spiny
But then after 5 years he shared his life's heartbreak. Makes those little things not so important.
I would add though that people are to varying degrees able to detect if someone is lying and some are better at lying than others. Also people do follow a particular teacher for a while and when done with at least a somewhat critical eye inconsistencies tend to show themselves.
There have been a lot of charlatans and it would seem that many of them have eventually been found out to be lying. The ones who haven't over the course of their life are either brillian liars or worthy of veneration.
the teachers can sometimes agree to disagree. This leaves some space for the 'I don't knows' in life. What they all have is common is the goal; what your heart tells you, you want to achieve.
The messenger sometimes makes a whoopsie, but often in varying degrees they'll give you the right directions. What complicates matters is when the students don't follow the directions, then get lost, and blame the messenger.
I tend to take my cues from life - if I find myself becoming too galvanised, I look again and find the otherside and spend twice as long on that! Eventually, there is truth in everything and nothing (if you need to convince yourself then you'll find the evidence you need!) - so people dont really lie - they're just 'misguided and persuasive' - Ive found people lying when theyre just trying their best to help!!
If one tries to push a personal agenda then inevitably there will come a point....
That struck me as strange at the time though, because there's a whole section on having faith in your teacher in Lamrim, and this sect is heavily into Lamrim.
I had my doubts, but there could be an element of truth in it.
We really want to get honest when we’re serious about our practice.
And maybe this makes us wish for this really honest and sincere teacher who can facilitate our quest for truth. And so that’s what we project on the person of the teacher.
Plausible enough?
Spiritual guides aren't the only ones who benefit from an assumption of honesty. We assume our doctors don't lie (witness Mountains' shock when his sister's surgeon lied by omission re: her diagnosis), we place our trust in a variety of professionals: health care, mental health care, accountants. It's common and reasonable to assume a certain standard of integrity on such people, as opposed to, say, strangers, and some types of salespeople maybe. We're more likely to research the auto repair shop that gave us an estimate than we are our priest. But times are changing.
It's always a gamble to give our trust to anyone, but we learn to read people better through experience.
It’s nice when we can be relaxed about it; when in our mind we keep the teacher human.
When we don’t turn the teacher into a saint, we don’t have to turn him into a demon after the balloon of illusion is punctured.
@federica The teacher is a finger, not to be mistaken for the moon? Sure, I can work with that analogy.
edit: @Zero! You addressed my concern before it even posted! Brilliant post--the analogy makes more sense now. :thumbsup:
I think that really, in all endeavors, spiritual or not, the memories and moments that stand the test of time are the ones most helpful to us; I contrast this a lot with the Tibetan "see your teacher as a Buddha and you shall reap the blessings of a Buddha, see your teacher as a Bodhisattva and you shall reap the blessings of a Bodhisattva, see your teacher as an ordinary person and you shall reap blessings in such accord"
Dharma is inside you. Where else would it be?
I think a teacher can be a very helpful reminder, but just as you say, the relationship can be very dangerous. My one friend jokes often about the extravagant commentaries on some texts ... "and then the master coughed..." -- as if every blink oozes with profundity. We must recognize our basic human needs, but also give thanks to those that guide.
Just as a mother bird develops a nest for a young bird to grow, thank those before you that have brought you to now, to where there is a nest, a foundation for growth. A teacher need not come to you with a textbook or a slew of teachings -- ideally we see all our interactions as teachers -- learning to understand our own triggers.
Sorry for the wild tangent, just a lot of stuff came to mind.
A novice in whose heart the faith shone bright, met with his teacher in a dream one night and said, "I tremble in bewildered fear; how is it master that I see you here? My heart became a candle when you went, a flame that flickers with astonishment. I seek truth's secret like a searching slave - explain to me your state beyond the grave!"
His teacher said, "I cannot understand, amazed I gnaw the knuckles of my hand. You say that youre bewildered - in this pit, bewilderment seems endless, infinite! A hundred mountains would be less to me, than one brief speck of such uncertainty!"
Quoted from http://www.thebigview.com/buddhism/precepts.html
"I undertake to observe the precept to abstain.... from false speech.
-Fourth Training-
Aware of the suffering caused by unmindful speech and the inability to listen to others, I am committed to cultivate loving speech and deep listening in order to bring joy and happiness to others and relieve others of their suffering. Knowing that words can create happiness or suffering, I am committed to learn to speak truthfully, with words that inspire self-confidence, joy, and hope. I am determined not to spread news that I do not know to be certain and not to criticise or condemn things of which I am not sure. I will refrain from uttering words that can cause division or discord, or that can cause the family or the community to break. I will make all efforts to reconcile and resolve all conflicts, however small. "
http://web.singnet.com.sg/~alankhoo/Precepts.htm#Lying
"4. Do not Lie
To refrain from telling lies is to show respect for the truth. No good can come from telling lies, be it out of fun or malice. When a Buddhist observes the fourth precept, he refrains from telling lies or half-truths that exaggerate or understate, and instead cultivates the virtue of truthfulness. Once people uphold the respect for truth, there will be fewer quarrels and misunderstandings and fewer cases of false accusations in the courts of justice. Society will then become more peaceful and orderly."
Nobody is perfect, but if a teacher is not even trying to set the best example possible, how can they expect respect? Not Lying is not hard.
Spiny
Surely this is worth bearing in mind when making judgements about others. Are we harsh or lenient? forgiving or merciless?
I know I am not very objective- if at all- and even with a high level of mastery in a given subject, never an expert. This makes me prone to scrutiny, but it's also the reason we need to ask questions.
We all ask questions, and with some compromise, a meeting of minds is achieved. There is no aloofness, distancing or verbal confusion, because the language has to accord for anything meaningful to take place. The language has to be accessible.
"Not fit to teach" is a pretty good teacher, don't you think?
There are some teachings on how to recognize a good dharma teacher, probably available online. I kind of understand about doing work for the sangha. The effect of that connection. One thing occurs to me is if you have some inspirations such as particular Zen masters I think the 'law of attraction' will bring you to the right sangha. Remember you have a wisdom mind. How do you find the right partner in a marriage? Divorcing the sangha is painful I imagine, but if it's what you need to do then that's it.
when the direction is clearly wrong, consult another signpost.... :rolleyes: Yes, @Bothi - that's what this thread is all about.... no?
Re: your conclusion .... that is a pretty sad state of affairs, IMO, when we have to resort to "at least I learned something from his/her mistakes."
Buddhism is about consciously avoiding mistakes to reduce suffering, not about making the best of a bad situation. The latter is a saving grace, not a remedy. JMHO.
http://en.wikipedia.com/wiki/Lama
http://en.wikipedia.com/wiki/Guru
Spiny