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Well obviously there's no I here, it's just dust on the wind and no one really cares if experience ends or not. And so the thread unravels and my suffering ends. But if it's oblivion I'm going to be really upset, just so as you know.
I care if experience ends or not . Suffering does not end simply because you say the one who suffers is not there. I would call this denial. Just because there is no permanent self doesnt mean you just dissolve in to nothingness and dont care about life any more.
No, I wasn't saying that. Just that I am in meditation as I am writing this and self view is arising and ceasing from time to time, you guys are helping actually and thankyou. It is fairly blissful here and as the cares are let go of, it gets more so. I may get flippant or poetic from time to time, sorry about that.
"The experience of Maha may sound as if one is going after certain sort of experience and appears to be in contradiction with the 'ordinariness of enlightenment' promoted in Zen Buddhism. This is not true and in fact, without this experience, non-dual is incomplete. This section is not about Maha as a stage to achieve but to see that Sunyata is Maha in nature. In Maha, one does not feel self, one 'feels' universe; one does not feel 'Brahman' but feels 'interconnectedness'; one does not feel 'helplessness' due to 'dependence and interconnection' but feels great without boundary, spontaneous and marvelous. Now lets get back to 'ordinariness'.
Ordinariness has always been Taoism’s forte. In Zen we also see the importance of this being depicted in those enlightenment models like Tozan’s 5 ranks and the The Ten Oxherding Pictures. But ordinariness must only be understood that non-dual and the Maha world of suchness is nothing beyond. There is no beyond realm to arrive at and never a separated state from our ordinary daily world; rather it is to bring this primordial, original and untainted experience of non-dual and Maha experience into the most mundane activities. If this experience is not found in most mundane and ordinary activities then practitioners have not matured their understandings and practices.
Before Maha experience has always been rare occurrence in the natural state and was treated as a passing trend that comes and goes. Inducing the experience often involves concentration on repeatedly doing some task for a short period of time for example,
If we were to breathe in and out, in and out…till there is simply this entire sensation of breath, just breath as all causes and conditions coming into this moment of manifestation.
If we were to focus on the sensation of stepping, the sensation of hardness, just the sensation of the hardness, till there is simply this entire sensation ‘hardness’ when the feet touches the ground, just this ‘hardness’ as all causes and conditions coming into this moment of manifestation.
If we were to focus on hearing someone hitting a bell, the stick, the bell, the vibration of the air, the ears all coming together for this sensation of sound to arise, we will have Maha experience. ...
However ever since incorporating the teaching of dependent origination into non-dual presence, over the years it has become more ‘accessible’ but never has this been understood as a ground state. There seems to be a predictable relationship of seeing interdependent arising and emptiness on the experience of non-dual presence.
A week ago, the clear experience of Maha dawned and became quite effortless and at the same time there is a direct realization that it is also a natural state. In Sunyata, Maha is natural and must be fully factored into the path of experiencing whatever arises. Nevertheless Maha as a ground state requires the maturing of non-dual experience; we cannot feel entirely as the interconnectedness of everything coming spontaneously into being as this moment of vivid manifestation with a divided mind.
The universe is this arising thought. The universe is this arising sound. Just this magnificent arising! Is Tao. Homage to all arising."
How does perception of time work? How can I seem to observe change when there is only this moment? Or is it one of those things that is impossible, but how things are?
Buddhism, setting up the principle that all things have no ego-substance, especially stresses the realization of no- ego. But the more deeply man reflects on the status of the self, the more he has to seek the absolute ground beyond the self. Belief springs not only from man's subjective demand, but also from his response to the beckoning of the absolute. It comes from the absolute and depends on the call of God. But this God is not only the object but also the ground of the object; He is not only the subject but also the ground of the subject. In Shoji, Dogen says:
When you let go of your mind and body and for get them completely, when you throw yourself into Buddha's abode, when everything is done by the Buddha, when you follow the Buddha Mind without effort or anxiety-you break free from life's suffering and become the Buddha.
When we transcend the subject and touch its ground, we come in contact with the absolute. The mind of God appears in the flowers in the field and the birds in the air. In them we see the form of the absolute. The truth speaks through objects. Arising from the Buddha, it takes shape in the world.
Oh dear, my experience totally agrees with him, but in the Theravada views I've been alluding to, the Buddha said there was no ground of being, consciousness is originated based on craving and we gotta get out of here. Hmmm.
"But, Master Gotama, the monk whose mind is thus released: Where does he reappear?"
"'Reappear,' Vaccha, doesn't apply."
"In that case, Master Gotama, he does not reappear."
"'Does not reappear,' Vaccha, doesn't apply."
"...both does & does not reappear."
"...doesn't apply."
"...neither does nor does not reappear."
"...doesn't apply."
"How is it, Master Gotama, when Master Gotama is asked if the monk reappears... does not reappear... both does & does not reappear... neither does nor does not reappear, he says, '... doesn't apply' in each case. At this point, Master Gotama, I am befuddled; at this point, confused. The modicum of clarity coming to me from your earlier conversation is now obscured."
"Of course you're befuddled, Vaccha. Of course you're confused. Deep, Vaccha, is this phenomenon, hard to see, hard to realize, tranquil, refined, beyond the scope of conjecture, subtle, to-be-experienced by the wise. For those with other views, other practices, other satisfactions, other aims, other teachers, it is difficult to know. That being the case, I will now put some questions to you. Answer as you see fit. How do you construe this, Vaccha: If a fire were burning in front of you, would you know that, 'This fire is burning in front of me'?"
"...yes..."
"And suppose someone were to ask you, Vaccha, 'This fire burning in front of you, dependent on what is it burning?' Thus asked, how would you reply?"
"...I would reply, 'This fire burning in front of me is burning dependent on grass & timber as its sustenance.'"
"If the fire burning in front of you were to go out, would you know that, 'This fire burning in front of me has gone out'?"
"...yes..."
"And suppose someone were to ask you, 'This fire that has gone out in front of you, in which direction from here has it gone? East? West? North? Or south?' Thus asked, how would you reply?"
"That doesn't apply, Master Gotama. Any fire burning dependent on a sustenance of grass & timber, being unnourished — from having consumed that sustenance and not being offered any other — is classified simply as 'out' (unbound)."
"Even so, Vaccha, any physical form by which one describing the Tathagata would describe him: That the Tathagata has abandoned, its root destroyed, made like a palmyra stump, deprived of the conditions of development, not destined for future arising. Freed from the classification of form, Vaccha, the Tathagata is deep, boundless, hard to fathom, like the sea. 'Reappears' doesn't apply. 'Does not reappear' doesn't apply. 'Both does & does not reappear' doesn't apply. 'Neither reappears nor does not reappear' doesn't apply.
"Any feeling... Any perception... Any mental fabrication...
"Any consciousness by which one describing the Tathagata would describe him: That the Tathagata has abandoned, its root destroyed, made like a palmyra stump, deprived of the conditions of development, not destined for future arising. Freed from the classification of consciousness, Vaccha, the Tathagata is deep, boundless, hard to fathom, like the sea. 'Reappears' doesn't apply. 'Does not reappear' doesn't apply. 'Both does & does not reappear' doesn't apply. 'Neither reappears nor does not reappear' doesn't apply."
The passage concerns the Tathagata after death. Deep, boundless, hard to fathom, suggest undescribable experience. The flame going out suggests oblivion.
But taiyaki, can you see that from this, some would put Dogen in the category 'teachers of other views'. The question is, does the unnourished fire refer to ignorance or to appearance itself, luminous though it be?
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personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
Well, the Buddha says specifically that does not reappear doesn't apply. So I take that to mean nirvana isn't oblivion. He also says "...the Tathagata is deep, boundless, hard to fathom, like the sea..." Which to me sounds like some sort of subtle continuation. A metaphor is often given of enlightenment being like the wave that realizes that it was always part of the sea, thats what I hear.
"An ancient Zen master said: 'Being-time stands on the topmost peak and in the utmost depths of the sea, being-time is three heads and eight elbows, being-time is a height of sixteen or eighteen feet, being-time is a monk's staff, being time is a hossu, being-time is a stone lantern, being-time is Taro, being-time is Jiro, being-time is earth, being-time is sky.
"Being-time" means that time is being. Every existent thing is time. The sixteen-foot golden figure is time. As it is time it has the grandeur of time. You must learn that it is twelve hours of "nowness." Three heads and eight elbows is time. Since it is time it cannot but be identical with these twelve hours this very moment. Though we do not measure twelve hours as a long or a short time, still we [arbitrarily] call them twelve hours. The traces of the ebb and flow of time are so evident that we do not doubt them; yet, though we do not doubt them, we ought not to conclude that we understand them. Human beings are changeable, at one time questioning what they do not understand and at another time no longer questioning the same thing, so their former questionings do not always coincide with their present ones. The questioning alone, for its duration, is time.
Man disposes himself and construes this disposition as the world. You must recognize that every thing, every being in this entire world is time. No object obstructs another, just as no time obstructs another. Thus the initial orientation of each different mind toward the truth exists within the same time, and for each mind there is as well a moment of commencement in its orientation towards truth. It is no different with practice-enlightenment.
Man disposes himself and looks upon this disposition [as the world]. That man is time is undeniably like this. One has to accept that in this world there are millions of objects and that each one is, respectively, the entire world-this is where the study of Buddhism commences. When one comes to realize this fact, [one perceives that] every object, every living thing is the whole, even though it itself does not realize it. As there is no other time than this, every being-time is the whole of time: one blade of grass, every single object is time. Each point of time includes every being and every world.
Just consider whether or not there are any conceivable beings or any conceivable worlds which are not included in this present time. If you are the ordinary person, unlearned in Buddhism, upon hearing the words aru toki (at one time or being-time) you will doubtlessly understand [that they mean "at one time," that is,] that at one time Being appeared as three heads and eight elbows, that at one time Being was a height of sixteen or eighteen feet, or that at one time I waded through the river and at one time crossed the mountain. You may think that the mountain and that river are things of the past, that I have left them behind and am now living in this palatial building-they are as separate from me as heaven is from earth.
However, the truth has another side. When I climbed the mountain and crossed the river, I was [time]. Time must needs be with me. I have always been; time cannot leave me. When time is not regarded as a phenomenon which ebbs and flows, the time I climbed the mountain is the present moment of being-time. When time is not thought of as coming and going, this moment is absolute time for me. At the time I climbed the mountain and crossed the river, did I not experience the time I am in this building? Three heads and eight elbows is yesterday's time, a height of sixteen or eighteen feet is today's; but "yesterday" or "today" means the time when one goes straight into the mountains and sees ten thousand peaks. It has never passed. Three heads and eight elbows is my being-time. It seems to be of the past, but it is of the present. A height of sixteen or eighteen feet is my being-time. It appears to be passing, but it is now. Thus the pine is time, as is the bamboo.
Do not regard time as merely flying away; do not think that flying is its sole function. For time to fly away there would have to be a separation [between it and things]. Because you imagine that time only passes, you do not learn the truth of being-time. In a word, every being in the entire world is a separate time in one continuum. And since being is time, I am my being-time. Time has the quality of passing, so to speak, from today to tomorrow, from today to yesterday, from yesterday to today, from today to today, from tomorrow to tomorrow. Because this passing is a characterize of time, present time and past time do not overlap or impinge upon one another. But the master Seigen is time, Obaku is time, Kosei is time, Sekito is time. Since you and I are time, practice-enlightenment is time."
The Nirmaṇakāya is a physical body of a Buddha. An example would be Gautama Buddha's body.
The Sambhogakāya is the reward-body, whereby a bodhisattva completes his vows and becomes a Buddha. Amitabha, Vajrasattva and Manjushri are examples of Buddhas with the Sambhogakaya body.
The Dharmakāya is the embodiment of the truth itself, and it is commonly seen as transcending the forms of physical and spiritual bodies. Vairocana Buddha is often depicted as the incomprehensible Dharmakāya, particularly in esoteric Buddhist schools such as Shingon and Kegon in Japan.
person, yes, but the extinctionists solve the riddle as meaning there was never anyone to reappear or not, so only the process we call life goes to extinction. They say 'deathless' means not caring about dying. Seems a bit sneaky of the Buddha though.
That sutta was a discussion with the wanderer Vacchagotta who had a lot of questions for the Buddha. He has already tought a lot about these things. If the Buddha were to simply say "it's like this", it would not help Vaccha in any way. That's one reason the Buddha did reply in this way.
Also, this paragraph is I think important:
"Does Master Gotama have any position at all?"
"A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origin, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origin, such its disappearance; such is perception... such are mental fabrications... such is consciousness, such its origin, such its disappearance.' Because of this, I say, a Tathagata — with the ending, fading out, cessation, renunciation, & relinquishment of all construings, all excogitations, all I-making & mine-making & obsession with conceit — is, through lack of clinging/sustenance, released."
taiyaki, that's cool, but what is said is that thinkers like Dogen are still coming from the position of taking consciousness, what he is describing, as the ground of being. The idea is that meditators are so used to consciousness as being prior in all their experiences of meditational practice, that they never considered it as being impermanent and find it difficult to understand Buddha's more radical view that even Dogen's suchness is impermanent, will lead to suffering, and despite all the bliss and wonders, should be discarded along with consciousness, life and the whole bundle of Dukkha. I don't like this view, but it does explain how Buddhism differs from other systems.
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personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
person, yes, but the extinctionists solve the riddle as meaning there was never anyone to reappear or not, so only the process we call life goes to extinction. They say 'deathless' means not caring about dying. Seems a bit sneaky of the Buddha though.
I guess, but there certainly was a fire, if you stuck you're hand it you'd get burnt. A wave is always a part of the sea, so from the point of view of the sea the wave is the same to it whether its a wave or not. So is it then right to say there never was a wave? I say there is a wave but it arises and ceases and is always part of the sea.
Sabre, yes. He also said he knew what happens after death, however, he said something like 'if it were to be said that the monk thus released, does not see, does not know, that would not be the case'. i.e. does not know what will happen.
So if it's a fetter of views, why does the Mahayana take such a many splendoured view?
I used to interpret it like this 'if a fire goes out, the sky and earth do not vanish', and I saw the end of my body in the same way. Now I am questioning that understanding. Maybe he meant 'you're dead and that's it. No more joy or pain'. And that's not very inspiring, it's kind of like giving up on things.
taiyaki, that's cool, but what is said is that thinkers like Dogen are still coming from the position of taking consciousness, what he is describing, as the ground of being. The idea is that meditators are so used to consciousness as being prior in all their experiences of meditational practice, that they never considered it as being impermanent and find it difficult to understand Buddha's more radical view that even Dogen's suchness is impermanent, will lead to suffering, and despite all the bliss and wonders, should be discarded along with consciousness, life and the whole bundle of Dukkha. I don't like this view, but it does explain how Buddhism differs from other systems.
i get what you are pointing to because i had the same questions. these links in a way helped me to solve the issue. hope they help you out as well.
there is no consciousness apart from manifestation. and upon further examination even manifestation isn't pin pointable. completely traceless, yet vividly appearing (dependently originated).
thanks taiyaki. You guys are great actually. I haven't had one snide or condescending comment on this board so far. Some forums are a bit more elitist.
Sabre, yes. He also said he knew what happens after death, however, he said something like 'if it were to be said that the monk thus released, does not see, does not know, that would not be the case'. i.e. does not know what will happen.
So if it's a fetter of views, why does the Mahayana take such a many splendoured view?
I don't know. But I do know that nirvana as a sort of heaven is not found in every Mahayana tradition.
from what I understand the Buddha was an accomplished meditation master prior to becoming the buddha. he understood and realized atman, but this was not the liberation he sought.
anatta, emptiness, dependent origination point in another direction, but this does not deny the atman, but rather puts correct perspective on it.
truly there is absolutely nothing we can call self, mine, me, or i.
"Whatever we see, it is not I, not me, nor a man, not a woman. In the eye, there is just color. It arises and passes away. So who is seeing the object? There is no seer in the object. Then how is the object seen? On account of certain causes. What are the causes? Eyes are one cause; they must be intact, in good order. Second, object or color must come in front of the eyes, must reflect on the retina of the eyes. Third, there must be light. Fourth, there must be attention, a mental factor. If those four causes are present, then there arises a knowing faculty called eye consciousness. If any one of the causes is missing, there will not be any seeing. If eyes are blind, no seeing. If there is no light, no seeing. If there is no attention, no seeing. But none of the causes can claim, "I am the seer." They're just constantly arising and passing.
As soon as it passes away, we say, "I am seeing." You are not seeing; you are just thinking, "I am seeing." This is called conditioning. Because our mind is conditioned, when we hear the sound, we say, "I am hearing." But there is no hearer waiting in the car to hear the sound. Sound creates a wave, and, when it strikes against the eardrum, ear consciousness is the effect. Sound is not a man, nor a woman; it is just a sound that arises and passes away. But, according to our conditioning, we say, "That woman is singing and I am hearing." But you're not hearing, you are thinking, "I am hearing." Sound is already heard and gone. There is no "I" who heard the sound; it is the world of concept. Buddha discovered this in the physical level, in the mental level: how everything is happening without an actor, without a doer - empty phenomenon go rolling on."
We as Buddhists don't make real something eternal that stands on it's own, so we don't see the cosmos the same way as monism (one-ism) does. Which is why we don't consider a monist ideation of the liberated state as actually signifying "liberation." We see that a monist is still binding to a concept, a vast ego... an identity even if beyond concept or words, is still a limitation to the liberated experience of a Buddha. We see that even the liberated state is relative, though everlasting due to the everlasting realization of inter-dependent-co-emergence. We don't see any state of consciousness or realization as being one with a source of absolutely everything. We see the liberated consciousness as just the source of our own experience, even though we ourselves are also relative to everything else. The subtle difference is a difference to be considered, because it actually leads to an entirely different realization and thus cannot be equated with a monist (one-ist) view of the cosmos at all which we consider a bound view and not equal to the liberated view.
This accord with my preferred view. i.e. reality is better than views.
reality with correct view brings about reality as it is.
reality with incorrect view brings about a distortion of reality as it is.
reality after correct view bringing about reality as it is then can facilitate the dropping of views.
in my honest opinion without buddha's right view on reality, it is practically impossible to come to the buddha's conclusions even though his conclusions are bare, naked and in front of us at all times.
so right view with an open mind and investigative determination will bring about correct vision and ultimately a freedom from all views.
It's not that a Buddhist does not directly experience a unifying field of perception beyond being a perceiver that is perceiving... but, the Buddhist does not equate this even subconsciously, deep within the experiential platform of consciousness, with a source of all being. It's merely a non-substantial unity of interconnectivity, not a vast and infinite oneness that is the subject of all objects. That would not be considered liberation from the perspective of a Buddha. That would merely be a very subtle, but delusional identification with an experience that originates dependent upon seeing through phenomena, where the consciousness expands past perceived limitations. Even this consciousness that experiences this sense of connection with everything, beyond everything is also considered a phenomena and is empty of inherent, independent reality. Yet persists for as long as the realization persists, which for a Buddha is without beginning nor end.
S. XII. 1 Thus, through the entire fading away and extinction of this `Ignorance', the `Karma-formations' are extinguished. Through the extinction of Karma-formations, `Consciousness' (rebirth) is extinguished. Through the extinction of consciousness, the `Mental and Physical Existence' is extinguished. Through the extinction of the mental and physical existence, the `Six Sense-Organs' are extinguished. Through the extinction of the six sense-organs, `Sensorial Impression' is extinguished. Through the extinction of sensorial impression, `Feeling' is extinguished. Through the extinction of feeling, `Craving' is extinguished. Through the extinction of craving, `Clinging' is extinguished. Through the extinction of clinging, the `Process of Becoming' is extinguished. Through the extinction of the process of becoming, `Rebirth' is extinguished. Through the extinction of rebirth, `Decay and Death', sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief and despair are extinguished. Thus takes place the extinction of this whole mass of suffering. This is called the noble truth of the extinction of suffering.
S. XLIV 4 Thus, he who does not understand corporeality, feeling, perception, mental formations and consciousness according to reality (i.e. as void of a personality, or Ego) nor understands their arising, their extinction, and the way to their extinction, he is liable to believe, either that the Perfect One continues after death, or that he does not continue after death, and so forth.
The world, however, is given to pleasure, delighted with pleasure, enchanted with pleasure. Truly, such beings will hardly understand the law of conditionality, the Dependent Origination (pa.ticca-samuppaada) of everything; incomprehensible to them will also be the end of all formations, the forsaking of every substratum of rebirth, the fading away of craving, detachment, extinction, Nibbaana.
"From Dharma Overground, Dharma Dan (Daniel M. Ingram):
Dear Mark,
Thanks for your descriptions and analysis. They are interesting and relevant.
I think of it this way, from a very high but still vipassana point of view, as you are framing this question in a vipassana context:
First, the breath is nice, but at that level of manifesting sensations, some other points of view are helpful:
Assume something really simple about sensations and awareness: they are exactly the same. In fact, make it more simple: there are sensations, and this includes all sensations that make up space, thought, image, body, anything you can imagine being mind, and all qualities that are experienced, meaning the sum total of the world.
In this very simple framework, rigpa is all sensations, but there can be this subtle attachment and lack of investigation when high terms are used that we want there to be this super-rigpa, this awareness that is other. You mention that you feel there is a larger awareness, an awareness that is not just there the limits of your senses. I would claim otherwise: that the whole sensate universe by definition can't arise without the quality of awareness by definition, and so some very subtle sensations are tricking you into thinking they are bigger than the rest of the sensate field and are actually the awareness that is aware of other sensations.
Awareness is simply manifestation. All sensations are simply present.
Thus, be wary of anything that wants to be a super-awareness, a rigpa that is larger than everything else, as it can't be, by definition. Investigate at the level of bare sensate experience just what arises and see that it can't possibly be different from awareness, as this is actually an extraneous concept and there are actually just sensations as the first and final basis of reality.
As you like the Tibetan stuff, and to quote Padmasambhava in the root text of the book The Light of Wisdom:
"The mind that observes is also devoid of an ego or self-entity. It is neither seen as something different from the aggregates Nor as identical with these five aggregates. If the first were true, there would exist some other substance.
This is not the case, so were the second true, That would contradict a permanent self, since the aggregates are impermanent. Therefore, based on the five aggregates, The self is a mere imputation based on the power of the ego-clinging.
As to that which imputes, the past thought has vanished and is nonexistent. The future thought has not occurred, and the present thought does not withstand scrutiny." I really found this little block of tight philosophy helpful. It is also very vipassana at its core, but it is no surprise the wisdom traditions converge.
Thus, if you want to crack the nut, notice that everything is 5 aggregates, including everything you think is super-awareness, and be less concerned with what every little type of consciousness is than with just perceiving them directly and noticing the gaps that section off this from that, such as rigpa from thought stream, or awareness from sensations, as these are golden chains"
How can you find delight and mirth Where there is burning without end? In deepest darkness you are wrapped! Why do you not seek for the light? I.ook at this puppet here, well rigged, A heap of many sores, piled up, Diseased, and full of greediness, Unstable, and impermanent! Devoured by old age is this frame, A prey to sickness, weak and frail; To pieces breaks this putrid body, All life must truly end in death. The Three Warnings
A. III. 35 Did you never see in the world a man, or a woman, eighty, ninety, or a hundred years old, frail, crooked as a gable-roof, bent down, resting on crutches, with tottering steps, infirm, youth long since fled, with broken teeth, grey and scanty hair or none, wrinkled, with blotched limbs? And did the thought never come to you that you also are subject to decay, that you also cannot escape it?
Did you never see in the world a man, or a woman who, being sick, afflicted, and grievously ill, wallowing in his own filth, was lifted up by some and put to bed by others? And did the thought never come to you that you also are subject to disease, that you also cannot escape it?
Did you never see in the world the corpse of a man, or a woman, one or two or three days after death, swollen up, blue-black in color, and full of corruption? And did the thought never come to you that you also are subject to death, that you also cannot escape it? Samsara
S. XV. 3 Inconceivable is the beginning of this Sa.msaara; not to be discovered is any first beginning of beings, who obstructed by ignorance, and ensnared by craving, are hurrying and hastening through this round of rebirths. Sa.msaara-the wheel of existence, lit, the `Perpetual Wandering'-is the name given in the Pali scriptures to the sea of life ever restlessly heaving up and down, the symbol of this continuous process of ever again and again being born, growing old, suffering, and dying. More precisely put: Sa.msaara is the unbroken sequence of the fivefold Khandha-combinations, which, constantly changing from moment to moment, follow continually one upon the other through inconceivable periods of time. Of this Sa.msaara a single life time constitutes only a tiny fraction. Hence, to be able to comprehend the first Noble Truth, one must let one's gaze rest upon the Sa.msaara, upon this frightful sequence of rebirths. and not merely upon one single life time, which, of course, may sometimes be not very painful.
The term `suffering' (dukkha), in the first Noble Truth refers therefore, not merely to painful bodily and mental sensations due to unpleasant impressions, but it comprises in addition everything productive of suffering or liable to it. The Truth of Suffering teaches that, owing to the universal law of impermanence, even high and sublime states of happiness are subject to change and destruction, and that all states of existence are therefore unsatisfactory, without exception carrying in themselves the seeds of suffering.
Which do you think is more: the flood of tears, which weeping and wailing you have shed upon this long way-hurrying and hastening through this round of rebirths, united with the undesired, separated from the desired-this, or the waters of the four oceans?
Long have you suffered the death of father and mother, of sons, daughters, brothers, and sisters. And whilst you were thus suffering, you have indeed shed more tears upon this long way than there is water in the four oceans.
S. XV. 13 Which do you think is more: the streams of blood that, through your being beheaded, have flowed upon this long way, these, or the waters of the four oceans?
Long have you been caught as robbers, or highway men or adulterers; and, through your being beheaded, verily more blood has flowed upon this long way than there is water in the four oceans.
But how is this possible?
Inconceivable is the beginning of this Sa.msaara; not to be discovered is any first beginning of beings, who, obstructed by ignorance and ensnared by craving, are hurrying and hastening through this round of rebirths.
S. XV. 1 And thus have you long undergone suffering, undergone torment, undergone misfortune, and filled the graveyards full; truly, long enough to be dissatisfied with all the forms of existence, long enough to turn away and free yourselves from them all.
Hence the annihilation, cessation and overcoming of corporeality, feeling, perception, mental formations, and consciousness: this is the extinction of suffering, the end of disease, the overcoming of old age and death.
The undulatory motion which we call a wave-and which in the ignorant spectator creates the illusion of one and the same mass of water moving over the surface of the lake-is produced and fed by the wind, and maintained by the stored-up energies. Now, after the wind has ceased, and if no fresh wind again whips up the water of the lake, the stored-up energies will gradually be consumed, and thus the whole undulatory motion will come to an end. Similarly, if fire does not get new fuel, it will, after consuming all the old fuel, become extinct.
Just in the same way this Five-Khandha-process-which in the ignorant worldling creates the illusion of an Ego-entity- is produced and fed by the life-affirming craving (ta.nhaa), and maintained for some time by means of the stored-up life energies. Now, after the fuel (upaadaana), i.e. the craving and clinging to life, has ceased, and if no new craving impels again this Five-Khandha-process, life will continue as long as there are still life-energies stored up, but at their destruction at death, the Five-Khandha -process will reach final extinction.
Thus, Nibbaana, or `Extinction' (Sanskrit: nirvaana; from nir +root vaa to cease blowing, become extinct) may be considered under two aspects, namely as:
1. `Extinction of Impurities' (kilesa-parinibbaana), reached at the attainment of Arahatship, or Holiness, which generally takes place during life-time; in the Suttas it is called `saupaadisesa-nibbaana', i.e. `Nibbaana with the Groups of Existence still remaining'.
2. `Extinction of the Five-Khandha-process' (khandha-parinibbaana), which takes place at the death of the Arahat, called in the Suttas: `an-upaadisesa-nibbaana' i.e. `Nibbaana without the Groups remaining'.
Truly, there is a realm, where there is neither the solid, nor the fluid, neither heat, nor motion, neither this world, nor any other world, neither sun nor moon.
This I call neither arising, nor passing away, neither standing still, nor being born, nor dying. There is neither foothold, nor development, nor any basis. This is the end of suffering.
Oblivion? Or is it what Thusness describes.
Serious guy, that Buddha fellow. Shook me a little reading those suttas.
A monk asked Tozan, “When cold and heat come, how can we avoid them?” Tozan said, “Why don’t you go to the place where there is no cold or heat?” The monk said, “What is the place where there is no cold or heat?” Tozan said, “When it’s cold, the cold kills you; when it’s hot, the heat kills you.”
This is not advice to “accept” your situation, as some commentators have suggested, but a direct expression of authentic practice and enlightenment. Master Tozan is not saying, “When cold, shiver; when hot, sweat,” nor is he saying, “When cold, put on a sweater; when hot, use a fan.” In the state of authentic practice and enlightenment, the cold kills you, and there is only cold in the whole universe. The heat kills you, and there is only heat in the whole universe. The fragrance of incense kills you, and there is only the fragrance of incense in the whole universe. The sound of the bell kills you, and there is only “boooong” in the whole universe…
`I am' is a vain thought; `This am I' is a vain thought; `I shall be' is a vain thought; `I shall not be' is a vain thought. Vain thoughts are a sickness, an ulcer, a thorn. But after overcoming all vain thoughts, one is called `a silent thinker'. And the thinker, the Silent One, does no more arise, no more pass away, no more tremble, no more desire. For there is nothing in him whereby he should arise again. And as he arises no more, how should he grow old again? And as he grows old no more how should he die again? And as he dies no more, how should he tremble? And as he trembles no more, how should he have desire'?
Comments
the world is breathing.
this arising thought has nothing to do with any other thought, but is the result of the whole reality.
same with the arising sensations and the other sense spheres.
each arising phenomena contains the whole, yet is distinct and separate.
when breathing it is not a self that is breathing. it is everything that is breathing.
Ordinariness has always been Taoism’s forte. In Zen we also see the importance of this being depicted in those enlightenment models like Tozan’s 5 ranks and the The Ten Oxherding Pictures. But ordinariness must only be understood that non-dual and the Maha world of suchness is nothing beyond. There is no beyond realm to arrive at and never a separated state from our ordinary daily world; rather it is to bring this primordial, original and untainted experience of non-dual and Maha experience into the most mundane activities. If this experience is not found in most mundane and ordinary activities then practitioners have not matured their understandings and practices.
Before Maha experience has always been rare occurrence in the natural state and was treated as a passing trend that comes and goes. Inducing the experience often involves concentration on repeatedly doing some task for a short period of time for example,
If we were to breathe in and out, in and out…till there is simply this entire sensation of breath, just breath as all causes and conditions coming into this moment of manifestation.
If we were to focus on the sensation of stepping, the sensation of hardness, just the sensation of the hardness, till there is simply this entire sensation ‘hardness’ when the feet touches the ground, just this ‘hardness’ as all causes and conditions coming into this moment of manifestation.
If we were to focus on hearing someone hitting a bell, the stick, the bell, the vibration of the air, the ears all coming together for this sensation of sound to arise, we will have Maha experience.
...
However ever since incorporating the teaching of dependent origination into non-dual presence, over the years it has become more ‘accessible’ but never has this been understood as a ground state. There seems to be a predictable relationship of seeing interdependent arising and emptiness on the experience of non-dual presence.
A week ago, the clear experience of Maha dawned and became quite effortless and at the same time there is a direct realization that it is also a natural state. In Sunyata, Maha is natural and must be fully factored into the path of experiencing whatever arises. Nevertheless Maha as a ground state requires the maturing of non-dual experience; we cannot feel entirely as the interconnectedness of everything coming spontaneously into being as this moment of vivid manifestation with a divided mind.
The universe is this arising thought.
The universe is this arising sound.
Just this magnificent arising!
Is Tao.
Homage to all arising."
http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2009/03/on-anatta-emptiness-and-spontaneous.html
beginning, middle, end. these are projected onto a "moment" which is also a projection.
you should check out the concept called being-time by dogen.
he covers exactly what you are questioning.
I knew saying present moment was an error as soon as I said it. Basically, change and impermanence are also projections?
When you let go of your mind and body and for get them completely, when you throw yourself into Buddha's abode, when everything is done by the Buddha, when you follow the Buddha Mind without effort or anxiety-you break free from life's suffering and become the Buddha.
When we transcend the subject and touch its ground, we come in contact with the absolute. The mind of God appears in the flowers in the field and the birds in the air. In them we see the form of the absolute. The truth speaks through objects. Arising from the Buddha, it takes shape in the world.
Oh dear, my experience totally agrees with him, but in the Theravada views I've been alluding to, the Buddha said there was no ground of being, consciousness is originated based on craving and we gotta get out of here. Hmmm.
Change is a projection. If change is constant, there is no change?
The cessation Alan Watts is talking about happens in this very moment, not at death.
"'Reappear,' Vaccha, doesn't apply."
"In that case, Master Gotama, he does not reappear."
"'Does not reappear,' Vaccha, doesn't apply."
"...both does & does not reappear."
"...doesn't apply."
"...neither does nor does not reappear."
"...doesn't apply."
"How is it, Master Gotama, when Master Gotama is asked if the monk reappears... does not reappear... both does & does not reappear... neither does nor does not reappear, he says, '... doesn't apply' in each case. At this point, Master Gotama, I am befuddled; at this point, confused. The modicum of clarity coming to me from your earlier conversation is now obscured."
"Of course you're befuddled, Vaccha. Of course you're confused. Deep, Vaccha, is this phenomenon, hard to see, hard to realize, tranquil, refined, beyond the scope of conjecture, subtle, to-be-experienced by the wise. For those with other views, other practices, other satisfactions, other aims, other teachers, it is difficult to know. That being the case, I will now put some questions to you. Answer as you see fit. How do you construe this, Vaccha: If a fire were burning in front of you, would you know that, 'This fire is burning in front of me'?"
"...yes..."
"And suppose someone were to ask you, Vaccha, 'This fire burning in front of you, dependent on what is it burning?' Thus asked, how would you reply?"
"...I would reply, 'This fire burning in front of me is burning dependent on grass & timber as its sustenance.'"
"If the fire burning in front of you were to go out, would you know that, 'This fire burning in front of me has gone out'?"
"...yes..."
"And suppose someone were to ask you, 'This fire that has gone out in front of you, in which direction from here has it gone? East? West? North? Or south?' Thus asked, how would you reply?"
"That doesn't apply, Master Gotama. Any fire burning dependent on a sustenance of grass & timber, being unnourished — from having consumed that sustenance and not being offered any other — is classified simply as 'out' (unbound)."
"Even so, Vaccha, any physical form by which one describing the Tathagata would describe him: That the Tathagata has abandoned, its root destroyed, made like a palmyra stump, deprived of the conditions of development, not destined for future arising. Freed from the classification of form, Vaccha, the Tathagata is deep, boundless, hard to fathom, like the sea. 'Reappears' doesn't apply. 'Does not reappear' doesn't apply. 'Both does & does not reappear' doesn't apply. 'Neither reappears nor does not reappear' doesn't apply.
"Any feeling... Any perception... Any mental fabrication...
"Any consciousness by which one describing the Tathagata would describe him: That the Tathagata has abandoned, its root destroyed, made like a palmyra stump, deprived of the conditions of development, not destined for future arising. Freed from the classification of consciousness, Vaccha, the Tathagata is deep, boundless, hard to fathom, like the sea. 'Reappears' doesn't apply. 'Does not reappear' doesn't apply. 'Both does & does not reappear' doesn't apply. 'Neither reappears nor does not reappear' doesn't apply."
The passage concerns the Tathagata after death. Deep, boundless, hard to fathom, suggest undescribable experience. The flame going out suggests oblivion.
But taiyaki, can you see that from this, some would put Dogen in the category 'teachers of other views'. The question is, does the unnourished fire refer to ignorance or to appearance itself, luminous though it be?
"Being-time" means that time is being. Every existent thing is time. The sixteen-foot golden figure is time. As it is time it has the grandeur of time. You must learn that it is twelve hours of "nowness." Three heads and eight elbows is time. Since it is time it cannot but be identical with these twelve hours this very moment. Though we do not measure twelve hours as a long or a short time, still we [arbitrarily] call them twelve hours. The traces of the ebb and flow of time are so evident that we do not doubt them; yet, though we do not doubt them, we ought not to conclude that we understand them. Human beings are changeable, at one time questioning what they do not understand and at another time no longer questioning the same thing, so their former questionings do not always coincide with their present ones. The questioning alone, for its duration, is time.
Man disposes himself and construes this disposition as the world. You must recognize that every thing, every being in this entire world is time. No object obstructs another, just as no time obstructs another. Thus the initial orientation of each different mind toward the truth exists within the same time, and for each mind there is as well a moment of commencement in its orientation towards truth. It is no different with practice-enlightenment.
Man disposes himself and looks upon this disposition [as the world]. That man is time is undeniably like this. One has to accept that in this world there are millions of objects and that each one is, respectively, the entire world-this is where the study of Buddhism commences. When one comes to realize this fact, [one perceives that] every object, every living thing is the whole, even though it itself does not realize it. As there is no other time than this, every being-time is the whole of time: one blade of grass, every single object is time. Each point of time includes every being and every world.
Just consider whether or not there are any conceivable beings or any conceivable worlds which are not included in this present time. If you are the ordinary person, unlearned in Buddhism, upon hearing the words aru toki (at one time or being-time) you will doubtlessly understand [that they mean "at one time," that is,] that at one time Being appeared as three heads and eight elbows, that at one time Being was a height of sixteen or eighteen feet, or that at one time I waded through the river and at one time crossed the mountain. You may think that the mountain and that river are things of the past, that I have left them behind and am now living in this palatial building-they are as separate from me as heaven is from earth.
However, the truth has another side. When I climbed the mountain and crossed the river, I was [time]. Time must needs be with me. I have always been; time cannot leave me. When time is not regarded as a phenomenon which ebbs and flows, the time I climbed the mountain is the present moment of being-time. When time is not thought of as coming and going, this moment is absolute time for me. At the time I climbed the mountain and crossed the river, did I not experience the time I am in this building? Three heads and eight elbows is yesterday's time, a height of sixteen or eighteen feet is today's; but "yesterday" or "today" means the time when one goes straight into the mountains and sees ten thousand peaks. It has never passed. Three heads and eight elbows is my being-time. It seems to be of the past, but it is of the present. A height of sixteen or eighteen feet is my being-time. It appears to be passing, but it is now. Thus the pine is time, as is the bamboo.
Do not regard time as merely flying away; do not think that flying is its sole function. For time to fly away there would have to be a separation [between it and things]. Because you imagine that time only passes, you do not learn the truth of being-time. In a word, every being in the entire world is a separate time in one continuum. And since being is time, I am my being-time. Time has the quality of passing, so to speak, from today to tomorrow, from today to yesterday, from yesterday to today, from today to today, from tomorrow to tomorrow. Because this passing is a characterize of time, present time and past time do not overlap or impinge upon one another. But the master Seigen is time, Obaku is time, Kosei is time, Sekito is time. Since you and I are time, practice-enlightenment is time."
-Dogen on Being-Time
The Nirmaṇakāya is a physical body of a Buddha. An example would be Gautama Buddha's body.
The Sambhogakāya is the reward-body, whereby a bodhisattva completes his vows and becomes a Buddha. Amitabha, Vajrasattva and Manjushri are examples of Buddhas with the Sambhogakaya body.
The Dharmakāya is the embodiment of the truth itself, and it is commonly seen as transcending the forms of physical and spiritual bodies. Vairocana Buddha is often depicted as the incomprehensible Dharmakāya, particularly in esoteric Buddhist schools such as Shingon and Kegon in Japan.
Something like that.
Also, this paragraph is I think important:
So if it's a fetter of views, why does the Mahayana take such a many splendoured view?
these links in a way helped me to solve the issue.
hope they help you out as well.
http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2007/03/thusnesss-six-stages-of-experience.html
http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2009/03/on-anatta-emptiness-and-spontaneous.html
http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2009/09/realization-and-experience-and-non-dual.html
http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2011/12/experience-realization-view-practice.html
http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2011/10/zen-exploration-of-bahiya-sutta.html
and upon further examination even manifestation isn't pin pointable.
completely traceless, yet vividly appearing (dependently originated).
anatta, emptiness, dependent origination point in another direction, but this does not deny the atman, but rather puts correct perspective on it.
truly there is absolutely nothing we can call self, mine, me, or i.
then what problems are there?
As soon as it passes away, we say, "I am seeing." You are not seeing; you are just thinking, "I am seeing." This is called conditioning. Because our mind is conditioned, when we hear the sound, we say, "I am hearing." But there is no hearer waiting in the car to hear the sound. Sound creates a wave, and, when it strikes against the eardrum, ear consciousness is the effect. Sound is not a man, nor a woman; it is just a sound that arises and passes away. But, according to our conditioning, we say, "That woman is singing and I am hearing." But you're not hearing, you are thinking, "I am hearing." Sound is already heard and gone. There is no "I" who heard the sound; it is the world of concept. Buddha discovered this in the physical level, in the mental level: how everything is happening without an actor, without a doer - empty phenomenon go rolling on."
http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2012/01/munindra-on-anatta.html
This accord with my preferred view. i.e. reality is better than views.
reality with incorrect view brings about a distortion of reality as it is.
reality after correct view bringing about reality as it is then can facilitate the dropping of views.
in my honest opinion without buddha's right view on reality, it is practically impossible to come to the buddha's conclusions even though his conclusions are bare, naked and in front of us at all times.
so right view with an open mind and investigative determination will bring about correct vision and ultimately a freedom from all views.
just some more thoughts to ponder hehe.
S. XII. 1
Thus, through the entire fading away and extinction of this `Ignorance', the `Karma-formations' are extinguished. Through the extinction of Karma-formations, `Consciousness' (rebirth) is extinguished. Through the extinction of consciousness, the `Mental and Physical Existence' is extinguished. Through the extinction of the mental and physical existence, the `Six Sense-Organs' are extinguished. Through the extinction of the six sense-organs, `Sensorial Impression' is extinguished. Through the extinction of sensorial impression, `Feeling' is extinguished. Through the extinction of feeling, `Craving' is extinguished. Through the extinction of craving, `Clinging' is extinguished. Through the extinction of clinging, the `Process of Becoming' is extinguished. Through the extinction of the process of becoming, `Rebirth' is extinguished. Through the extinction of rebirth, `Decay and Death', sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief and despair are extinguished. Thus takes place the extinction of this whole mass of suffering. This is called the noble truth of the extinction of suffering.
First quote from this link site. Second from the Buddha.
Thus, he who does not understand corporeality, feeling, perception, mental formations and consciousness according to reality (i.e. as void of a personality, or Ego) nor understands their arising, their extinction, and the way to their extinction, he is liable to believe, either that the Perfect One continues after death, or that he does not continue after death, and so forth.
The world, however, is given to pleasure, delighted with pleasure, enchanted with pleasure. Truly, such beings will hardly understand the law of conditionality, the Dependent Origination (pa.ticca-samuppaada) of everything; incomprehensible to them will also be the end of all formations, the forsaking of every substratum of rebirth, the fading away of craving, detachment, extinction, Nibbaana.
Dear Mark,
Thanks for your descriptions and analysis. They are interesting and relevant.
I think of it this way, from a very high but still vipassana point of view, as you are framing this question in a vipassana context:
First, the breath is nice, but at that level of manifesting sensations, some other points of view are helpful:
Assume something really simple about sensations and awareness: they are exactly the same. In fact, make it more simple: there are sensations, and this includes all sensations that make up space, thought, image, body, anything you can imagine being mind, and all qualities that are experienced, meaning the sum total of the world.
In this very simple framework, rigpa is all sensations, but there can be this subtle attachment and lack of investigation when high terms are used that we want there to be this super-rigpa, this awareness that is other. You mention that you feel there is a larger awareness, an awareness that is not just there the limits of your senses. I would claim otherwise: that the whole sensate universe by definition can't arise without the quality of awareness by definition, and so some very subtle sensations are tricking you into thinking they are bigger than the rest of the sensate field and are actually the awareness that is aware of other sensations.
Awareness is simply manifestation. All sensations are simply present.
Thus, be wary of anything that wants to be a super-awareness, a rigpa that is larger than everything else, as it can't be, by definition. Investigate at the level of bare sensate experience just what arises and see that it can't possibly be different from awareness, as this is actually an extraneous concept and there are actually just sensations as the first and final basis of reality.
As you like the Tibetan stuff, and to quote Padmasambhava in the root text of the book The Light of Wisdom:
"The mind that observes is also devoid of an ego or self-entity.
It is neither seen as something different from the aggregates
Nor as identical with these five aggregates.
If the first were true, there would exist some other substance.
This is not the case, so were the second true,
That would contradict a permanent self, since the aggregates are impermanent.
Therefore, based on the five aggregates,
The self is a mere imputation based on the power of the ego-clinging.
As to that which imputes, the past thought has vanished and is nonexistent.
The future thought has not occurred, and the present thought does not withstand scrutiny."
I really found this little block of tight philosophy helpful. It is also very vipassana at its core, but it is no surprise the wisdom traditions converge.
Thus, if you want to crack the nut, notice that everything is 5 aggregates, including everything you think is super-awareness, and be less concerned with what every little type of consciousness is than with just perceiving them directly and noticing the gaps that section off this from that, such as rigpa from thought stream, or awareness from sensations, as these are golden chains"
http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2009/09/rigpa-and-aggregates.html
How can you find delight and mirth
Where there is burning without end?
In deepest darkness you are wrapped!
Why do you not seek for the light?
I.ook at this puppet here, well rigged,
A heap of many sores, piled up,
Diseased, and full of greediness,
Unstable, and impermanent!
Devoured by old age is this frame,
A prey to sickness, weak and frail;
To pieces breaks this putrid body,
All life must truly end in death.
The Three Warnings
A. III. 35
Did you never see in the world a man, or a woman, eighty, ninety, or a hundred years old, frail, crooked as a gable-roof, bent down, resting on crutches, with tottering steps, infirm, youth long since fled, with broken teeth, grey and scanty hair or none, wrinkled, with blotched limbs? And did the thought never come to you that you also are subject to decay, that you also cannot escape it?
Did you never see in the world a man, or a woman who, being sick, afflicted, and grievously ill, wallowing in his own filth, was lifted up by some and put to bed by others? And did the thought never come to you that you also are subject to disease, that you also cannot escape it?
Did you never see in the world the corpse of a man, or a woman, one or two or three days after death, swollen up, blue-black in color, and full of corruption? And did the thought never come to you that you also are subject to death, that you also cannot escape it?
Samsara
S. XV. 3
Inconceivable is the beginning of this Sa.msaara; not to be discovered is any first beginning of beings, who obstructed by ignorance, and ensnared by craving, are hurrying and hastening through this round of rebirths.
Sa.msaara-the wheel of existence, lit, the `Perpetual Wandering'-is the name given in the Pali scriptures to the sea of life ever restlessly heaving up and down, the symbol of this continuous process of ever again and again being born, growing old, suffering, and dying. More precisely put: Sa.msaara is the unbroken sequence of the fivefold Khandha-combinations, which, constantly changing from moment to moment, follow continually one upon the other through inconceivable periods of time. Of this Sa.msaara a single life time constitutes only a tiny fraction. Hence, to be able to comprehend the first Noble Truth, one must let one's gaze rest upon the Sa.msaara, upon this frightful sequence of rebirths. and not merely upon one single life time, which, of course, may sometimes be not very painful.
The term `suffering' (dukkha), in the first Noble Truth refers therefore, not merely to painful bodily and mental sensations due to unpleasant impressions, but it comprises in addition everything productive of suffering or liable to it. The Truth of Suffering teaches that, owing to the universal law of impermanence, even high and sublime states of happiness are subject to change and destruction, and that all states of existence are therefore unsatisfactory, without exception carrying in themselves the seeds of suffering.
Which do you think is more: the flood of tears, which weeping and wailing you have shed upon this long way-hurrying and hastening through this round of rebirths, united with the undesired, separated from the desired-this, or the waters of the four oceans?
Long have you suffered the death of father and mother, of sons, daughters, brothers, and sisters. And whilst you were thus suffering, you have indeed shed more tears upon this long way than there is water in the four oceans.
S. XV. 13
Which do you think is more: the streams of blood that, through your being beheaded, have flowed upon this long way, these, or the waters of the four oceans?
Long have you been caught as robbers, or highway men or adulterers; and, through your being beheaded, verily more blood has flowed upon this long way than there is water in the four oceans.
But how is this possible?
Inconceivable is the beginning of this Sa.msaara; not to be discovered is any first beginning of beings, who, obstructed by ignorance and ensnared by craving, are hurrying and hastening through this round of rebirths.
S. XV. 1
And thus have you long undergone suffering, undergone torment, undergone misfortune, and filled the graveyards full; truly, long enough to be dissatisfied with all the forms of existence, long enough to turn away and free yourselves from them all.
http://www.urbandharma.org/udharma2/wob1.html
Hence the annihilation, cessation and overcoming of corporeality, feeling, perception, mental formations, and consciousness: this is the extinction of suffering, the end of disease, the overcoming of old age and death.
The undulatory motion which we call a wave-and which in the ignorant spectator creates the illusion of one and the same mass of water moving over the surface of the lake-is produced and fed by the wind, and maintained by the stored-up energies. Now, after the wind has ceased, and if no fresh wind again whips up the water of the lake, the stored-up energies will gradually be consumed, and thus the whole undulatory motion will come to an end. Similarly, if fire does not get new fuel, it will, after consuming all the old fuel, become extinct.
Just in the same way this Five-Khandha-process-which in the ignorant worldling creates the illusion of an Ego-entity- is produced and fed by the life-affirming craving (ta.nhaa), and maintained for some time by means of the stored-up life energies. Now, after the fuel (upaadaana), i.e. the craving and clinging to life, has ceased, and if no new craving impels again this Five-Khandha-process, life will continue as long as there are still life-energies stored up, but at their destruction at death, the Five-Khandha -process will reach final extinction.
Thus, Nibbaana, or `Extinction' (Sanskrit: nirvaana; from nir +root vaa to cease blowing, become extinct) may be considered under two aspects, namely as:
1. `Extinction of Impurities' (kilesa-parinibbaana), reached at the attainment of Arahatship, or Holiness, which generally takes place during life-time; in the Suttas it is called `saupaadisesa-nibbaana', i.e. `Nibbaana with the Groups of Existence still remaining'.
2. `Extinction of the Five-Khandha-process' (khandha-parinibbaana), which takes place at the death of the Arahat, called in the Suttas: `an-upaadisesa-nibbaana' i.e. `Nibbaana without the Groups remaining'.
Truly, there is a realm, where there is neither the solid, nor the fluid, neither heat, nor motion, neither this world, nor any other world, neither sun nor moon.
This I call neither arising, nor passing away, neither standing still, nor being born, nor dying. There is neither foothold, nor development, nor any basis. This is the end of suffering.
Oblivion? Or is it what Thusness describes.
Serious guy, that Buddha fellow. Shook me a little reading those suttas.
A monk asked Tozan, “When cold and heat come, how can we avoid them?”
Tozan said, “Why don’t you go to the place where there is no cold or heat?”
The monk said, “What is the place where there is no cold or heat?”
Tozan said, “When it’s cold, the cold kills you; when it’s hot, the heat kills you.”
This is not advice to “accept” your situation, as some commentators have suggested, but a direct expression of authentic practice and enlightenment. Master Tozan is not saying, “When cold, shiver; when hot, sweat,” nor is he saying, “When cold, put on a sweater; when hot, use a fan.” In the state of authentic practice and enlightenment, the cold kills you, and there is only cold in the whole universe. The heat kills you, and there is only heat in the whole universe. The fragrance of incense kills you, and there is only the fragrance of incense in the whole universe. The sound of the bell kills you, and there is only “boooong” in the whole universe…
~The Flatbed Sutra of Louie Wing, Ted Biringer