How do Buddhists know for certain hell is not forever?

AstralProjectee

How do Buddhists know for certain hell is not forever?

Thanks.

genkaku

The same way that non-Buddhists know it is -- i.e. they don't know.

ihepf

Trough impermanence. Everything is impermanent even hell.

The same way that non-Buddhists know it is -- i.e. they don't know.

or that.

Zero

Nothing is for certain.

The buddhist teachings describe a cyclic universe thus the option to cycle is there.

person

What @ihepf said, impermanence. Everything changes, nothing lasts.

Dakini

We "know" because the Buddha said so. If you were a Christian, then you might have something truly serious to worry about.

OP, why the hell obsession? I'm getting kinda worried about you. Have you killed someone? Caused deliberate harm to numerous sentient beings? If not, relax. You're ok. And even if you had, you can turn yourself around and dedicate the rest of your life to doing good deeds for others. Really, you're gonna be ok. *hug* More important at this stage, I'd say, would be to actually start practicing the Dharma daily. The precepts, meditation, kindness, mindfulness.

AstralProjectee

Dakini, I will not say exactly what I have done but it was odd unintentional harm was caused over a period of time that has caused a lot of suffering and future suffering. I am truly sorry for what I have done. But I think even Hitler and demons should have another chance if they pay for what they have done. I would suffer by the mistakes of someone else's deeds as long as it is not for eternity.

Peace!

Dakini

OK, thanks. The KEY WORD is "unintentional". You're off free with that one! In Buddhism, it's all about intent. If you didn't intend harm, you can rest peacefully, hell-wise. Really, honestly, that's how it works. Still, your conscience may bother you, but that has nothing to do with going to hell after death. Do what you can to make atonement, or go to a Buddhist teacher and ask for a purification ceremony. It'll help. Bless you.

ihepf

Still, your conscience may bother you, but that has nothing to do with going to hell after death.

Yeah, that has to do with going to hell in life .

Dakini, I will not say exactly what I have done but it was odd unintentional harm was caused over a period of time that has caused a lot of suffering and future suffering. I am truly sorry for what I have done. But I think even Hitler and demons should have another chance if they pay for what they have done. I would suffer by the mistakes of someone else's deeds as long as it is not for eternity.

Peace!

Because i dont belief in afterlife or rebirth etc, my concept of hell is the hell i create right here right now for my self.

I have done things too that caused harm to others (brawls, insults etc..) and to me and i suffered a lot because of that. I literally created hell on earth for me, in my mind. What done is done. If you can repair it do it if not apologize. The hell in mind is optional and doesnt make things really better .

genkaku

We "know" because the Buddha said so.

@Dakini -- Ummmmmmm??????????

Jason

Experience?

Jeffrey

Because their is motion. It's not always one thing even

Jeffrey

There are sentient beings who voluntarily go into hell to help beings. If you can believe in hell then why not opening to beings seeing those who manifest the real deal. (that's my need maybe yours is different kinda)

Zero

Dakini, I will not say exactly what I have done but it was odd unintentional harm was caused over a period of time that has caused a lot of suffering and future suffering. I am truly sorry for what I have done. But I think even Hitler and demons should have another chance if they pay for what they have done. I would suffer by the mistakes of someone else's deeds as long as it is not for eternity.
Peace!

You wont know whether there is a hell or not until you die - worrying about it now wont make any difference and it is doubtful that you will find the certainty you seek.

The worry itself, the guilt and the doubt caused will however work to create a sort of hell for you in this life - address that as it is immediate and certain - it is doubtful that you can change the past but you can choose your present and in turn influence your future - there's enough there to keep you busy over your life.

person

OP, you can try the vajrasattva mantra and practice. It's said to purify negative karma, up to you, its been beneficial for me.

http://www.wildmind.org/mantras/figures/vajrasattva-mantra

Dakini

We "know" because the Buddha said so.

@Dakini -- Ummmmmmm??????????

haha! "know" was put in quotes for a reason! But the scriptures do say that. And lots of commentary and articles I've read by monks and leading analysts. Everything is impermanent anyway, so an impermanent stay in hell is consistent with that. What the Buddha didn't explain is whether the hell and heavenly realms themselves are impermanent.

person

What the Buddha didn't explain is whether the hell and heavenly realms themselves are impermanent.

I can't speak to whether the Buddha said it or not but in temporal Buddhist cosmology all the realms up to certain form realms are destroyed at the end of a universe.

The destruction by fire is the normal type of destruction that occurs at the end of the Saṃvartakalpa. But every eighth mahākalpa, after seven destructions by fire, there is a destruction by water. This is more devastating, as it eliminates not just the Brahma worlds but also the Ābhāsvara worlds.

Every sixty-fourth mahākalpa, after 56 destructions by fire and 7 destructions by water, there is a destruction by wind. This is the most devastating of all, as it also destroys the Śubhakṛtsna worlds. The higher worlds are never destroyed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhist_cosmology

Dakini

That makes a lot of sense, @person, in fact, I thought of that myself, but I didn't know it was in the cosmology. Thanks.

@AstralProjectee Hitler will have a second chance, after he pays his dues. You, however, according to my understanding, will have no dues to pay, because there was no ill intent in what you did. Try to give your conscience a rest. Do loving-kindness meditation on yourself. Stop flogging yourself with visions of hell. You're not a bad person. Maybe practicing mindfulness would help avert future accidents. Get professional help, if you can't stop flagellating yourself. Life goes on. You're welcome here with us.

taiyaki

Forever is only in relationship to a posited "subject".

Also there is only change. Impermanence is a seal and it doesn't take much experiential investigation to realize that everything is constantly changing.

Because the subject is constantly changing and everything else is constantly changing, even hell is constantly changing.

But there are no entities that change occur to. Only processes meeting processes, on and on and on an on an on an on an on an on an on.

caz

How do Buddhists know for certain hell is not forever?

Thanks.

Because Hell is a Samsaric phenomena and Samsara phenomena are impermenent because they arise due to causes and conditions nothing that ever arises in Samsara is permenent.

lamaramadingdong

Only forever is forever.

ThailandTom

We don't

pegembara

How do Buddhists know for certain hell is not forever?

Thanks.

Because we are here having this peaceful discussion, just as heaven is not forever. But things inevitably change.

caz

How do Buddhists know for certain hell is not forever?

Thanks.

Because Hell is a Samsaric phenomena and Samsara phenomena are impermenent because they arise due to causes and conditions nothing that ever arises in Samsara is permenent.

And to put it even more simply Buddha's Dharma doesn't lie.

Denkatsu

I wanna put a quote I have read recently.

The poor in spirit, or indigent of spirit, are actually those who recognize their own nothingness, shame and inner misery. This kind of being unquestionably receives Enlightenment.

Theswingisyellow

Hell is your own creation. Realize your in hell, abandon it's causes and conditions, and then tread the Path.
Hell after this physical life is as real to me as pink unicorns, not to dismiss the believers in pink unicorns, but hell, pink unicorns, and what may come after this physical existence are unknowable and unprovable things.
For myself I would rather extricate myself from the hell I am in, in the here and now.
This is truth for me, your truth may be different.

Denkatsu

Why encourage death in misery? We can never learn or grow from that.

Victorious

Buddhist know because of Anicca principal and Personal Experience.

Science know because of laws of thermodynamics and other peoples experinces. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_of_thermodynamics


It only took science 2000 years to get there. Give or take...

/Victor



:coffee:

federica

I wanna put a quote I have read recently.

The poor in spirit, or indigent of spirit, are actually those who recognize their own nothingness, shame and inner misery. This kind of being unquestionably receives Enlightenment.

The source?
Please cite where this is from.
apart from the fact that it's bullcrap, of course.....

Udo

OP, you can try the vajrasattva mantra and practice. It's said to purify negative karma, up to you, its been beneficial for me.

http://www.wildmind.org/mantras/figures/vajrasattva-mantra

Wow, I've followed the link and I've started the mp3 version on this site .... realy never heard such an inspiring mantra .... though I'm in Zen-Tradition I feel like reciting the mantra.

Greetings Udo

SpinyNorman2

How do Buddhists know for certain hell is not forever?

This reminds me of that Jean Paul Sartre quote: "Hell is other people"

KarunaDharmakaya

How do Buddhists know for certain hell is not forever?

Thanks.

depends if you are asking me as an ignorant ego self then i dont know anything other than the present moments

if we are talking about hell as based in the sutras then NO hell isnt eternal
LOTUS SUTRA chapter 12 devedtta is in hell and he is predicted to later come out of hell and become aq Buddha in the Future

also SUTRA of the earth store bodhisattva,which took a vow o not reach enlightenement till al hells are empty,the bodhisattva goes and saves those from hell,allowing them to leave and be reborn into higher planes(based on them having REMORSE/REPENT/REFORM)

that should cover a doctrinal standing on the none eternity of hell.

KarunaDharmakaya

Forever is only in relationship to a posited "subject".

Also there is only change. Impermanence is a seal and it doesn't take much experiential investigation to realize that everything is constantly changing.

Because the subject is constantly changing and everything else is constantly changing, even hell is constantly changing.

But there are no entities that change occur to. Only processes meeting processes, on and on and on an on an on an on an on an on an on.

everything is constantly changeing is the Buddha changeing??does the Buddha fall back into greed anger ignorance or are these thing Permanently destroyed??if it is Permanent then Impermanence ends when u become Buddha right?

robot

How do Buddhists know for certain hell is not forever?

Thanks.

depends if you are asking me as an ignorant ego self then i dont know anything other than the present moments

if we are talking about hell as based in the sutras then NO hell isnt eternal
LOTUS SUTRA chapter 12 devedtta is in hell and he is predicted to later come out of hell and become aq Buddha in the Future

also SUTRA of the earth store bodhisattva,which took a vow o not reach enlightenement till al hells are empty,the bodhisattva goes and saves those from hell,allowing them to leave and be reborn into higher planes(based on them having REMORSE/REPENT/REFORM)

that should cover a doctrinal standing on the none eternity of hell.

Doesn't do it for me.
What I get from those passages is this.

Hell is a place that may or may not be eternal and that people go there and may or may not get out. We will have to wait and see if the predictions are true.

There is a Bodhisattva down there working tirelessly to free people but who could be overwhelmed by new arrivals at any time. His job is complicated by the problem of these Hell people having to accept remorse, repent, reform, while in the midst of extreme suffering and surrounded by others in the same plight, with little or no help.
Stories like that are definitely not what interests me about Buddhism.

Lady_Alison

Fwiw hell is temporary in both Judaic and Islamic tradition. Universal Christianity, ie, catholism favors purgatory as hell is for those who knowingly commit grave unforgivable sins...all interpretation ....sigh, not this old acorn...or was it pecan?

...chestnut!

suopohe

Since the world has existed as long as no beginning.
Basically, every one has been to hell.
So If hell is eternal, then there are no one outside of hell.

KarunaDharmakaya

How do Buddhists know for certain hell is not forever?

Thanks.

depends if you are asking me as an ignorant ego self then i dont know anything other than the present moments

if we are talking about hell as based in the sutras then NO hell isnt eternal
LOTUS SUTRA chapter 12 devedtta is in hell and he is predicted to later come out of hell and become aq Buddha in the Future

also SUTRA of the earth store bodhisattva,which took a vow o not reach enlightenement till al hells are empty,the bodhisattva goes and saves those from hell,allowing them to leave and be reborn into higher planes(based on them having REMORSE/REPENT/REFORM)

that should cover a doctrinal standing on the none eternity of hell.

Doesn't do it for me.
What I get from those passages is this.

Hell is a place that may or may not be eternal and that people go there and may or may not get out. We will have to wait and see if the predictions are true.

There is a Bodhisattva down there working tirelessly to free people but who could be overwhelmed by new arrivals at any time. His job is complicated by the problem of these Hell people having to accept remorse, repent, reform, while in the midst of extreme suffering and surrounded by others in the same plight, with little or no help.
Stories like that are definitely not what interests me about Buddhism.

those are not the only suttas/sutras that speak of hell not being eternal,also note in Lotus sutra chapter 12 Devedatta went to avinchi hell which is the worst one you can go to and he will get out to be a Buddha,the Mahaparinirvanma sutras states that in the future everyone will become a Buddha which is why we all have Buddha nature(tathagatagarbha)
in one story in the pali shakyamuni was a cow in hell and did a great good deed and was reborn out of hell.also it is true many people stay in hell for what would seem like an eternity simply said some peole love hurting others,which is why they dont leave hell.

robot

Yes, I can see how a cow living in an industrial dairy farm or feedlot could be seen as a being that is living in a Hell realm.
Perhaps a cow might feel a spontaneous moment of compassion for another cow and intentionally step between it and the butcher.

person

Fwiw hell is temporary in both Judaic and Islamic tradition. Universal Christianity, ie, catholism favors purgatory as hell is for those who knowingly commit grave unforgivable sins...all interpretation ....sigh, not this old acorn...or was it pecan?

...chestnut!

I wonder if you'd be willing to explain a little so I don't have to look it up. The logic of eternal hell (and heaven, but moreso hell) has turned me off from Christianity and I assumed the others were the same.

Is time in hell not actually eternal or is it just that God eventually has mercy on you and takes you out?

Talisman

From what I understand, there is not such a thing as atonement. No matter how good you are after doing an evil deed, you will still have to pay for the deed committed. However, once it is paid for, then that's it, there's nothing left to worry about in that regard. So stop doing evil things and start doing virtuous things so that when the results of your evil deeds have finally been spent, you can simply reep the rewards of your virtuous actions.

Regarding hell not being eternal, it wouldn't make sense for it to be eternal because that would imply a reified state of being. In order for pain to be felt, change must occur. If there is no change, and thus a completely reified state, then there is no pain to speak of. If there was no pain, then how could it be hell? Imo a reified state of being not only is illogical but also implies a fate worse than hell, simply because without suffering there is no liberation from suffering.

KarunaDharmakaya

From what I understand, there is not such a thing as atonement. No matter how good you are after doing an evil deed, you will still have to pay for the deed committed. However, once it is paid for, then that's it, there's nothing left to worry about in that regard. So stop doing evil things and start doing virtuous things so that when the results of your evil deeds have finally been spent, you can simply reep the rewards of your virtuous actions.

Regarding hell not being eternal, it wouldn't make sense for it to be eternal because that would imply a reified state of being. In order for pain to be felt, change must occur. If there is no change, and thus a completely reified state, then there is no pain to speak of. If there was no pain, then how could it be hell? Imo a reified state of being not only is illogical but also implies a fate worse than hell, simply because without suffering there is no liberation from suffering.

MY REPLY:
Brahma net sutra on remorse repent and reform to exstinguish negative karma
Mahaparinirvana sutra for the same topic(king ajatashatru ends negative karma)(GREATEST Tathagatagarbha sutra I've came across)
Majjhima nikaya (Angulimala sutta) good example of exstinguishing negative karma

right on free will to change in hell this leads back to the Earth store bodhisattva sutra.