Tibetan Lama's Body Stays Fresh For Weeks After Death (NZ News Report)

person

http://tvnz.co.nz/sunday-news/dead-buddhist-man-in-death-meditation-part-1-8-47-video-4246846

Here's a good news report on what is known as death meditation, where an experienced meditator can enter the clear light state of mind at death and stay there for many days or weeks and while doing so the body neither decays or shows other signs of death. You can link part 2 after the first one is done. In part 2 they give a materialist an opportunity to explain the phenomena, though there's no mention of how the unusual conditions that might lead to such a state seems to happen regularly to high lamas and not so much to other people.

Dandelion

Thank you for the link, this was really interesting.

possibilities

thanks. (fire god?)

genkaku

While I enjoy such magical tales as much as the next person, I also wonder to what extent such tales will help anyone open a balky peanut butter jar.

compassionate_warrior

The discovery of this Mongol high lama's preserved body in meditative pose caused a sensation in Russia in 2002, but wikipedia says he was secretly preserved in salt after his death in the 1920's.

http://www.tamqui.com/buddhaworld/Hambo_Lama_Itigilov
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dashi-Dorzho_Itigilov

federica

@genkaku - it's extremely impolite to rain on the parade of others.
Why say something like that?

person

The discovery of this Mongol high lama's preserved body in meditative pose caused a sensation in Russia in 2002, but wikipedia says he was secretly preserved in salt after his death in the 1920's.

http://www.tamqui.com/buddhaworld/Hambo_Lama_Itigilov
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dashi-Dorzho_Itigilov

That's interesting but not really the same phenomena. The longest anyone has claimed anyone to stay in that state after death is like 4 weeks. At some point the mind does leave the body and normal decomposition begins. They talk about how they know when the conciousness has left the body in the report.

This isn't the only claim on this topic and there is intent to study it scientifically. Also it has been reported to have happened in the monasteries in southern India where the temperature is never cool.

person

While I enjoy such magical tales as much as the next person, I also wonder to what extent such tales will help anyone open a balky peanut butter jar.

No type of meditation is needed to open a jar, I'd recommend grip exercises. The purpose of this type of practice is that at the moment of death the most subtle level of mind appears and if one is able to remain in that state its like staying in the deepest state of meditation for several weeks and is conducive to spiritual realization.

WallyB

...an experienced meditator can enter the clear light state of mind...

or is it another state of meditation?

What is the difference between one who is dead, who has completed his time and a monk who has attained the cessation of perception & feeling?"

In the case of the one who is dead, who has completed his time, his bodily fabrications have ceased & subsided, his verbal fabrications ... his mental fabrications have ceased & subsided, his vitality is exhausted, his heat subsided & his faculties are scattered.

But in the case of a monk who has attained the cessation of perception & feeling, his bodily fabrications have ceased & subsided, his verbal fabrications ... his mental fabrications have ceased & subsided, his vitality is not exhausted, his heat has not subsided & his faculties are exceptionally clear.

This is the difference between one who is dead, who has completed his time, and a monk who has attained the cessation of perception & feeling.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.043.than.html

genkaku

@genkaku - it's extremely impolite to rain on the parade of others.
Why say something like that?

@federica -- Guilty as charged ... and yet?

person

...an experienced meditator can enter the clear light state of mind...

or is it another state of meditation?

What is the difference between one who is dead, who has completed his time and a monk who has attained the cessation of perception & feeling?"

In the case of the one who is dead, who has completed his time, his bodily fabrications have ceased & subsided, his verbal fabrications ... his mental fabrications have ceased & subsided, his vitality is exhausted, his heat subsided & his faculties are scattered.

But in the case of a monk who has attained the cessation of perception & feeling, his bodily fabrications have ceased & subsided, his verbal fabrications ... his mental fabrications have ceased & subsided, his vitality is not exhausted, his heat has not subsided & his faculties are exceptionally clear.

This is the difference between one who is dead, who has completed his time, and a monk who has attained the cessation of perception & feeling.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.043.than.html

Is there any difference here besides the way we talk about it?

WallyB

How the Blessed One Passed into Nibbana

And the Blessed One entered the first jhana. Rising from the first jhana, he entered the second jhana. Rising from the second jhana, he entered the third jhana. Rising from the third jhana, he entered the fourth jhana. And rising out of the fourth jhana, he entered the sphere of infinite space. Rising from the attainment of the sphere of infinite space, he entered the sphere of infinite consciousness. Rising from the attainment of the sphere of infinite consciousness, he entered the sphere of nothingness. Rising from the attainment of the sphere of nothingness, he entered the sphere of neither-perception-nor-non-perception. And rising out of the attainment of the sphere of neither-perception-nor-non-perception, he attained to the cessation of perception and feeling.

And the Venerable Ananda spoke to the Venerable Anuruddha, saying: "Venerable Anuruddha, the Blessed One has passed away."

"No, friend Ananda, the Blessed One has not passed away. He has entered the state of the cessation of perception and feeling."

Then the Blessed One, rising from the cessation of perception and feeling, entered the sphere of neither-perception-nor-non-perception. Rising from the attainment of the sphere of neither-perception-nor-non-perception, he entered the sphere of nothingness. Rising from the attainment of the sphere of nothingness, he entered the sphere of infinite consciousness. Rising from the attainment of the sphere of infinite consciousness, he entered the sphere of infinite space. Rising from the attainment of the sphere of infinite space, he entered the fourth jhana. Rising from the fourth jhana, he entered the third jhana. Rising from the third jhana, he entered the second jhana. Rising from the second jhana, he entered the first jhana.

Rising from the first jhana, he entered the second jhana. Rising from the second jhana, he entered the third jhana. Rising from the third jhana, he entered the fourth jhana. And, rising from the fourth jhana, the Blessed One immediately passed away.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.16.1-6.vaji.html

Cinorjer

http://tvnz.co.nz/sunday-news/dead-buddhist-man-in-death-meditation-part-1-8-47-video-4246846

Here's a good news report on what is known as death meditation, where an experienced meditator can enter the clear light state of mind at death and stay there for many days or weeks and while doing so the body neither decays or shows other signs of death. You can link part 2 after the first one is done. In part 2 they give a materialist an opportunity to explain the phenomena, though there's no mention of how the unusual conditions that might lead to such a state seems to happen regularly to high lamas and not so much to other people.

A materialist? All right, I'll bite. It's not up to a materialist to explain the phenomena of post mortem conditions and all the various environmental conditions that effect what we observe.

All I saw was someone who slipped into a coma and then died. Since the man died of stomach cancer, it's a good bet he would not have had food in his stomach or intestine, which is what causes the bloating and gas buildup immediately after death. Without that bacterial load, a body can look normal for an amazing amount of time. None of the other body symptoms they kept talking about are inconsistant with normal post mortem conditions. The hair does not fall out when we die, for instance.

In other words, this is a normal death and normal process the body is going through. As for why it seems to happen regularly to high lamas and not to other people, I would point out that in fact this is normal post mortem for other people also, especially people in his condition, but most people don't have a bunch of monks watching the body for weeks after death to point this out.

That is what a materialist would say.

Dakini

In "Autobiography of a Yogi", there's a letter from the coroner's office certifying that Paramahansa Yogananda's body didn't show signs of decomposing for a certain period after his death. But investigation shows that, in fact, he was embalmed. Coroners also say that it's not unusual to remain in good condition for days, or even a week or more, after death.

Also it has been reported to have happened in the monasteries in southern India where the temperature is never cool.

hm. Good point. Heat and humidity have a quick effect, normally.Keep us updated, @person, if there's any scientific follow-up.

vinlyn

There are a number of temples in Thailand where the body of a monk is displayed with little or no apparent deterioration for decades and decades.

person

There are a number of temples in Thailand where the body of a monk is displayed with little or no apparent deterioration for decades and decades.

This happens in Christian churches as well.

person

Anyway this is just one somewhat documented case of something that HHDL said in the video has been reported 30 or 40 times since they've been in India. There is desire to scientifically test this phenomena so at some point there should be better documented cases.

federica

@federica -- Guilty as charged ... and yet?

Well.....If you can't say something nice....

Lady_Alison

I agree with @genkaku and nothing wrong with commenting on how you feel...@federica, some of the coments made about cheney on another thread could be considered mean, don't you think?

You guys should hug it out.

Lady_Alison

While I enjoy such magical tales as much as the next person, I also wonder to what extent such tales will help anyone open a balky peanut butter jar.

i think what he meant was that aside from "faith" maybe blind faith, at that...we don't know exactly why the body has remained fresh...and it's doubtful that scientific examination could or would be done.

anyway, aside from a feeling of faith, how does it help you in the day to day... even dealing with the difficult aspects of life.

person

...and it's doubtful that scientific examination could or would be done.

The desire to study it scientifically is by the Dalai Lama so it will probably happen.

lamaramadingdong

Sooner or later, we're all worm food. And that's OK.

Lady_Alison

...and it's doubtful that scientific examination could or would be done.

The desire to study it scientifically is by the Dalai Lama so it will probably happen.

good!

IronRabbit

Who gives a hang how long these lamas stay pliable and fresh after death, what the devil are the crystal like "seeds" or "beads" that are found after cremation? And how does that occur?

Dakini

what the devil are the crystal like "seeds" or "beads" that are found after cremation? And how does that occur?

Can you tell us more about this?

Lady_Alison

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Śarīra

I looked it up on wiki, @dakini ...it reminds me of Catholic relics kept under the altar. Thy are usually a piece of flesh from a dead saint.

Cinorjer

A fascinating webpage with many pictures of both perported sariras (the "beads" sometimes left after low heat cremation) and the occasional Buddhist mummy.

http://sites.google.com/site/philosophydude/sariras.html

One additional note, the antique sarira supposed to be from Buddha that resemble glass beads have of course never been tested. They are much too sacred. Given human nature, these relics will be a mixture of authentic and manufactured with good intentions.

It probably seems strange to Western rationalists that Buddhist cultures have a streak of relic worship. The Dharma seems inclined to minimizing death as just another stage of the journey. I suppose it just goes to show people are what they are, and death fascinates us no matter what your beliefs.

Zero

No type of meditation is needed to open a jar, I'd recommend grip exercises.

Force over contemplation? Surely not...

Jars are sealed - if you look along the sides you will see where the lid is bent to take hold - the air pressure outside (in major part) maintains the seal - inserting a blunt knife or the end of a spoon under the bent lip and turning slightly allows air to enter the jar and equalise - you'll notice the non-tamper spot pop up and the lid twists off without fuss...

The concept of entering a state of consciousness after death (and utilising life to experience and understand that state so it is recognised on death) seems to recur - often this is linked to a supernatural physical event - have heard of bodies disappearing and also turning into light - probably not under controlled scientific conditions though!