Buddhism and the Advancement of Women

bodhipunk

I saw this at http://www.odysseynetworks.org/ and thought I would share.

Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo, a Buddhist nun who conceived and founded the Dongyu Gatsal Ling Nunnery in India, talks to Odyssey about her personal path and how the role of women in Buddhism is changing. In 1964, at the age of 20, Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo left London for India to pursue a path to Buddhism. After being one of the first Westerners ordained as a Tibetan Buddhist nun, Palmo lived in a monastery as the lone nun among 100 monks. She became frustrated with the lack of instruction and information provided to women and left for another monastery in the Himalayan valley of Lahaul, eventually retreating into the ultimate solitude -- a mountainside cave. In 2000, she opened Dongyu Gatsal Ling which today houses 75 nuns ranging in age from 12 to 25. Eight years later, she received the title Jetsunma ("Venerable Master") in recognition for her work promoting the status of women in Tibetan Buddhism. Tenzin Palmo spoke to us via Skype from India.

Any thoughts?

bodhipunk

Well, I tried to post the video but I guess it didn't work. You can watch it here.

Dakini

She doesn't discuss the lack of opportunity for full ordination for Buddhist nuns in India, Nepal and Tibet. This is too short a clip to do the topic justice.

the OP video works fine, bodhipunk.

bodhipunk

It is too short of a clip, I agree. Here is an article in which Bhikshuni Thubten Chodron talks about the opportunity for the full ordination of women in Tibetan Buddhism. It's an interesting read.

vinlyn

She doesn't discuss the lack of opportunity for full ordination for Buddhist nuns in India, Nepal and Tibet. This is too short a clip to do the topic justice.

the OP video works fine, bodhipunk.

Or any standing at all in Thailand.

Dakini

She doesn't discuss the lack of opportunity for full ordination for Buddhist nuns in India, Nepal and Tibet. This is too short a clip to do the topic justice.

Or any standing at all in Thailand.

Taiwanese nuns have been ordaining Thai nuns, so I've heard.

vinlyn

Thai nuns are highly respected by the citizenry, but have no official status

Lady_Alison

Why do nuns and monks live their entire lives in isolation?

Not all of them do, correct?

vinlyn

In Thailand, the vast majority of men become monks for some period of time...sort of a rite of passage. The minimum time is generally 3 weeks, most they can do it for as long as they wish.

Lady_Alison

Can they break their vows and return to the world without harsh treatment from their order or feelings of ostracism?...wait is that the right word....will they be ostracized, rather?

Lady_Alison

I think short vows to the life of a monastery is very holy and beneficial. I don't agree with permanent isolation from the world such as a Hermit would do. I think if you are blessed in your spiritual life and you can teach others how to end suffering you should. Buddha did.

I'm not sure if isolation is common in Buddhist monasteries but it is Christian ones.

vinlyn

Can they break their vows and return to the world without harsh treatment from their order or feelings of ostracism?...wait is that the right word....will they be ostracized, rather?

In Thailand there is no issue. But my impression is that once they remain a monk for a few years, they often stay a monk. At least that's what I think.

The only thing that I think is that monks should play a more compassionate role in society than they do in Thailand.

Lady_Alison

@vinlyn what do you mean? Thai monks are not compassionate? What has been your experience?

bodhipunk

@Lady_Alison nuns and monks mostly live in seclusion as it is often seen as a better environment to practice for it isn't quite as easy to get caught up in sense-pleasure and unwholesome states of mind. But they don't live in total isolation. They keep in contact with other members of society. During the rainy seasons (vassa), they even practice communal living.

Dhammananda Bhikkhuni was the first Thai woman to receive full ordination as a Theravada nun in the Dharmaguptaka lineage in Sri Lanka. She returned to Thailand with a mixed response, because bhikkhuni ordination is forbidden because they feel that it died out and can't be revived. Some see her as a pioneer (myself included), others not so much. She was once quoted as saying, "I do not choose to be ordained because I want people to recognise me. I did it because I want to carry on the heritage of the Lord Buddha. I am trying to revive the four pillars of Buddhism-bhikkus, bhikkhunis, laymen and laywomen-that will sustain the religion into the future. I don't mind if some people reserve different opinions about bhikkhunis. The public will be the ones to judge our worth."

I see it as a positive step forward, and my hat's off to these women. :rockon:

Lady_Alison

That's amazing, op. My curtsies to them, too.

Women deserve an equal if not higher place than men in spiritual teaching. Women have a higher capacity towards spirituality and compassion than men. I'm not hating on men, I love the intellectual mind dominated sex counterpart..

But women give spirituality a different quality...good thread, nonetheless!

vinlyn

@vinlyn what do you mean? Thai monks are not compassionate? What has been your experience?

I think there are 2 roles that monks ought to play. First, their own spiritual path. Second, as a resource to the community.

Lady_Alison

Oh....

Ora et labora

person

Why do nuns and monks live their entire lives in isolation?

Not all of them do, correct?

To still the mind and develop 'olympic level' mental qualities its neccessary to remove oneself from the distractions of daily life and turn the mind inward. Usually someone who has spent many years in solitary retreat will leave and spend time teaching others before they die.

Also there is the case of belief in rebirth. If one believes in that then the only thing to carry over from one life to the next is karma (including karma of mental habits), so that makes a difference too.

Can they break their vows and return to the world without harsh treatment from their order or feelings of ostracism?...wait is that the right word....will they be ostracized, rather?

In the Thai tradition its common for people to take temporary ordination vows and become a monk for a few months or years then return to lay life. In Tibetan Buddhism vows are meant to be taken for life and once one gives back their vows they can't take them up again. They aren't ostracized though, former monks will sometimes even work as artists in the construction of monasteries or as translators. There are several former western monks who now teach and write books and are still quite welcome and connected to the monastic world.

Dakini

Traditions differ, but monks in many Asian monasteries mingle with the populace during the day. Some care for temples where people come to pray or for blessings. Some monasteries are located in secluded areas, but many aren't. It's very different from Christian monasteries, where the monks never leave the monastery.

In the Tibetan tradition, they can give back their vows several times, and take time off. Someone here mentioned they can to that in Theravada tradition, too.

person

In the Tibetan tradition, they can give back their vows several times, and take time off.

Really? I've been told by several monks that they couldn't do that. The reasoning given was that then they could simply give up their robes, go out and have a good time then come back.

Dakini

I'm told by a former monk in the Tibetan tradition that they can do that, and -ha- that's exactly why they do it. In the Tibetan tradition, they're limited to 3 renunciations of the vows, though someone here said they can give them back more than that. This came up on a thread here a couple of months ago.

person

I listened to an old CD of mine and this song reminded me of you 'Rythm of @Dakini'



The video is just someone's slideshow of Everest but the back ground song is the one.

etherea

I love that music, thanks for sharing!

person

I'm told by a former monk in the Tibetan tradition that they can do that, and -ha- that's exactly why they do it. In the Tibetan tradition, they're limited to 3 renunciations of the vows, though someone here said they can give them back more than that. This came up on a thread here a couple of months ago.

I'll have to look into this again. The monks were younger novice monks and living in Kopan Monastery that particularly caters to westerners. So perhaps they had different rules than most because of the nearness of temptation, or maybe they just didn't know?

Dakini

If they were young novices, they may not have known.

person

If they were young novices, they may not have known.

Well, like young 20s, not like 10 or 11.

yildun

hi
"not man not woman"
equal but different

AND AS YOU ALL KNOW MEN ARE FROM MARS
WOMEN ARE FROM VISA
SLAINTE