Robes on fire.

RichardH

There is a story.. or variations on a story, that many of us have probably heard. A Bhikkhu is meditating in his kuti, when a candle tips over and sets fire to the shrine.. The Bhikkhu notes ... smoke.. smoke.. smoke.. Then the flames spread to his robes, and he notes ... heat.. heat.. heat.. Then the kuti is engulfed in flames and his burning robe sticks to his body, and he notes ... burning.. burning.. burning.

What does this story mean to you? Thanks.

vinlyn

That he was stupid.

Bekenze

That he probably needed to go to the hospital and get skin grafts.

Lady_Alison

That he was stupid.

lmfao...I laughed so hard, I had a coughing fit. Poor lap cat.

Sorry rich, I have no idea what it means. Is this for the purpose of a joke or Zen koan?

vinlyn

Some of these stories (or are they fables) about monks don't necessarily show a lot of sense, and I think they are actually demeaning to monks. For example, in Thailand there is the story of the monk who didn't want to offend people who were giving food alms in the morning, so when a woman with leprosy gave the monk a bowl and part of her diseased finger fell into the bowl, the monk went ahead and ate it to be polite. Dumb.

RichardH

It sounds pretty stupid, but is a very exaggerated way it illustrating something else that comes up in practice.. It is not a Zen koan.

The "mirror mind" , the non-judging mind.. the sheer mindfulness of meditation, is "below" or "prior to" volitional impulse.. volitional impulse is a transient object of "mind". Yet it gets trumped.

RichardH

Darn time limited edits..

The "mirror mind" , the non-judging mind.. the sheer mindfulness of meditation, is "below" or "prior to" volitional impulse.. volitional impulse is a transient object of "mind". Yet this mind gets trumped by volitional impulse under certain conditions. There is no objective measure around this.. there is a grey area. I think it points to something interesting.. anyway. Maybe not .. :buck:

sleepy

Lady_Alison

Can you explain this to me like you would your son? I think what you said is that our judgement or discernment lie just beneath our impulse to act. Is that correct?

Darn time limited edits..

The "mirror mind" , the non-judging mind.. the sheer mindfulness of meditation, is "below" or "prior to" volitional impulse.. volitional impulse is a transient object of "mind". Yet this mind gets trumped by volitional impulse under certain conditions. There is no objective measure around this.. there is a grey area. I think it points to something interesting.. anyway. Maybe not .. :buck:

sleepy

Darn time limited edits..

zenff

What does this story mean to you? Thanks.

It would be nice if our practice of meditation helps us in keeping a clear head in a real crisis. Panic in’t very effective as a rule.
Also maybe it could help us to not overreact in an imagined crisis, when all we need to do is relax and see things clearly.
So I can see something positive in the story. Make the mental note, keep relavily cool and do what needs to be done.

That’s where the story could be aimed at ridiculing vipassana (which is the meditation style with mental noting as far as I know) it could imply that the meditator doesn’t act when obviously he should. There could be something to it. Some people ruin their knees because they sit through the pain far too long. They should sit on a chair or something.

Okay, that’s all I can come up with now. Got to go or I will be late for work.

federica

My husband immediately over-panics when something happens, that it actually helps me to maintain my own calm.... no sense in both of us hopping around like rabbits on a hotplate!

caz

That he was stupid.

I agree, When meditating we Dont ignore danger toward our self.

taiyaki

Clear seeing and clear action.

They go hand in hand. Wisdom is meaningless without compassion.

Zero

Taken literally - if that monk were consistent, I am surprised he made it that far!

Not so literally then I guess what struck me is that there were lots of steps between smoke / heat / fire - on one level it illustrates that the end calamaty is often somewhere removed from the initial stress but there is a link - the effect of mindful action (and mindless inaction) is also illustrated.

RichardH

Can you explain this to me like you would your son? I think what you said is that our judgement or discernment lie just beneath our impulse to act. Is that correct?

Here is a borderline example.. You are sitting meditation.. and a fly lands on your head.. walks around for a moment...then flies away.. 15 minutes later the fly lands on your head again. There is an impulse to shoo it away. Do you give in to the impulse?.. or watch the impulse arise and pass...? There is no objective line here.. only your own line. Meditation is about dukkha and non-dukkha. Dukkha can be seen as attachment to... wanting this moment to be other than it is. Letting go of that wanting is Non-dukkha. Yet, wanting this moment to be other than it is, will be appropriate in some circumstances. and letting go of it will be inappropriate. Not letting go of that want, it quickly ripens into action. Sensing the appropriateness of not letting go, is an ordinary or practical wisdom.

The character in the story apparently lacked that. ..at least that is how I interpret it.

seeker242

Here is a borderline example.. You are sitting meditation.. and a fly lands on your head.. walks around for a moment...then flies away.. 15 minutes later the fly lands on your head again. There is an impulse to shoo it away. Do you give in to the impulse?.. or watch the impulse arise and pass...? There is no objective line here.. only your own line. Meditation is about dukkha and non-dukkha. Dukkha can be seen as attachment to... wanting this moment to be other than it is. Letting go of that wanting is Non-dukkha. Yet, wanting this moment to be other than it is, will be appropriate in some circumstances. and letting go of it will be inappropriate. Not letting go of that want, it quickly ripens into action. Sensing the appropriateness of not letting go, is an ordinary or practical wisdom.

The character in the story apparently lacked that. ..at least that is how I interpret it.

Good one imo. Another example could be voluntarily staying in a Sangha where the teacher is being abusive or unethical, etc. There's smoke, there's fire, get up and leave!

genkaku

@RichardH said

a fly lands on your head.

Here's a computer-friendly exercise of that ilk. Watch yourself!

As to the OP, there is the encouragement in Zen to sit "as if your hair were on fire." This means not to be lazy or let the mind wander.

patbb

That he was stupid.

this.

vinlyn

I think that sometimes these parables are totally unnecessary. For example, you can tell a whole parable or several parables about lying, or you can just say that lying is wrong.

genkaku

I think that sometimes these parables are totally unnecessary. For example, you can tell a whole parable or several parables about lying, or you can just say that lying is wrong.

Some people drink their whiskey neat. Others add water or ice. Stories have such a long tradition among human beings that I think it's fair to deduce that the mind opens up to stories where it might be less capable of or willing to swallow good medicine in an unadulterated form. Eg., look at all the spiritual texts that go on and on and on and on and on and on and on ... and perhaps boil down to little more than, "sit down, shut up, erect your spine and focus your mind."

lamaramadingdong

Once there lived a wealthy man whose house caught fire. He was away from home and when he came back he found his children were so absorbed in play that they had not noticed that the fire was raging. He screamed, "Get out children! Come out of the house! Hurry!" But they did not heed him. He shouted again: "Children I have some wonderful toys here, come out of the house and get them!" Heeding his cry this time, the children ran out of the burning house to be entertained by the toys he had brought.
The Lotus Sutra

vinlyn

Once there lived a wealthy man whose house caught fire. He was away from home and when he came back he found his children were so absorbed in play that they had not noticed that the fire was raging. He screamed, "Get out children! Come out of the house! Hurry!" But they did not heed him. He shouted again: "Children I have some wonderful toys here, come out of the house and get them!" Heeding his cry this time, the children ran out of the burning house to be entertained by the toys he had brought.
The Lotus Sutra

Thus proving that breaking the Precept about lying is acceptable.

Oh wait...that's not the lesson you were hoping I'd get out of it?????

RichardH

I am skeptical of those who jump to say ..he is stupid. Obviously he is stupid. To sit there while on fire is stupid. But there is something else to it that is not obvious...

Common sense can be wise, but it can also be as dumb as a bag of hammers.

Lady_Alison

Parables teach and human beings are programed to be receptive towards rhyme, prose, lyrical music, and poetry.

Parables are an art form that can cut through mind stuff and straight into understanding. Sometime we hear but don't understand, he see but don't know...so I had some trouble with this parable. But @lamaramadingdong told a wonderful story...I got that one!

Lady_Alison

*we

RichardH

@RichardH said

a fly lands on your head.

Here's a computer-friendly exercise of that ilk. Watch yourself!

As to the OP, there is the encouragement in Zen to sit "as if your hair were on fire." This means not to be lazy or let the mind wander.

Thanks for the link.. I was waiting for something to time out...but no!! that damn fly just stayed there... had...to..stop. :grumble:

IronRabbit

"Dumb as a bag of hammers" - one of my all time favorite sayings.

Robes on fire....damn....
Looks like mindfulness flushed a chump!

O Brother Where Art Thou

pegembara

"'Everything exists': That is one extreme. 'Everything doesn't exist': That is a second extreme. Avoiding these two extremes, the Tathagata teaches the Dhamma via the middle: ..."

The monk has fallen into the 2nd trap.

pegembara

If you are trapped in a burning building with no way to escape, then noting heat-heat, smell-smell, fear-fear etc is a valid way to escape suffering.

Jeffrey

To me he was practicing the power how to turn himself into fire or water. By facing the fire, gaphopper, he could learn a longing for water.

The problem is that the elements don't have much to do with karma. So I think it would be more of an insight meditaton and that could eventually bloom somehow.

Just my guess.

mithril

It feels wrong for a person to die like that.
It feels wrong for the person not to sustain attention since he is an advanced practitioner.

Both beliefs (feelings) are based on concept - this is better then that.
What there is between those beliefs (but i don't in any way mean the average of the belief; to practice till you're burnt just a bit is just as stupid) is, and feels, right.

how

I would say it's just a snoozing monk having a little drama dream. Meditation that allows you to ignore the precepts requires a perversion of the 8 fold path.

.

zenmyste

The Bhikkhu notes ... smoke.. smoke.. smoke.. and he notes ... heat.. heat.. heat.. and he notes ... burning.. burning.. burning.

What does this story mean to you? Thanks.

he NOTES what is happening. Nothing more to it. Nothing mystical. Its very Zen minded.
It doesnt say he didnt panic or even say he died, or is dumb or is wrong etc etc..

Its just letting us know that his mind noted that first there was smoke.......
Then his mind noted there was heat..........
Finally his mind noted there was Burning....

We could carry the story on and on..

''Then the Bhikkhu noted he was in intense pain and called for help..
Help was on its way but would take some time. The Bhikku noted that help would take some time, therefore sat in the lotus position and started meditating..... etc etc..