"suffering"

genkaku

I am hoping that someone wiser than I can take on the topic of suffering (dukkha) in Buddhism from the point of view of ordinary discussion. Definitions of dukkha include such words as "stress" or "anxiety" or "dissatisfaction." In this sense, "suffering" seems to be employed when anyone goes through a bad patch in which sadness or disappointment is experienced. In this sense, every bump in the personal road becomes suffering. And I am not suggesting this is wrong.

But if every personal misfortune is Buddhism's meaning of suffering, then, once that misfortune has been coped with, relieved, erased or whatever, it would mean the end of suffering ... which of course is not the case. Most of us go from one misfortune to another, one worry to another. And the fact of the matter is, most of us might be quite upset if our worries and cares and suffering were to disappear. Who would I be without my worries? Who could we complain to? How would I define myself? How could we schmooze so amiably on an internet bulletin board?

I'm probably not stating my question very well. I guess I just think that sometimes "suffering" is trotted out on every occasion when something unpleasant happens... sort of as an explanation that somehow lightens the burden: If I can explain it, I will feel so much better.

What I wonder is if the "unsatisfactoriness" of life doesn't run a bit deeper than my current worries, my current dashed hopes, my current search for relief in a word like "suffering."

Oh hell ... someone slap me upside of the head! I'm not sure what I'm trying to get at here.

Your thoughts would be welcome ... slaps too, come to that.

RichardH

Hi genkaku.. well since I am not only wise, but have enormous humility.. I'll take a run at it..

Seriously... for me...Dukkha is an all-pervasive ache/wanting of this moment to be other than it is.. It is wall to wall, it fills every micro-second.. and it is identical with the sense of "I".

When there is no "I sense" , no "I-ing", there is no Dukkha.. So there are moments of non-dukkha .... and the rest of the time there is Dukkha..

..maybe a samsara/nirvana coin thing. getting to know that coin...

if that makes sense..

person

Suffering can be classified into 3 types. Suffering of suffering, suffering of change and all-pervasive suffering. This link is a short article on the 3. What you may be talking about is all-pervasive suffering.

http://thedailyenlightenment.com/2011/12/the-three-levels-of-suffering/

RichardH

Suffering can be classified into 3 types. Suffering of suffering, suffering of change and all-pervasive suffering. This link is a short article on the 3. What you may be talking about is all-pervasive suffering.

http://thedailyenlightenment.com/2011/12/the-three-levels-of-suffering/

I am sure genkaku is up on theory... How about a first person account, person? your own direct experience?... we can all reference sutta/sutra... or post a link. I would like to hear about your actual experience.

ThailandTom

I am not the wisest buddhist in the temple but I will coin my ideas on dukkha.

There are of course various forms of suffering as you pointed out, stress, anxiety, physical pain etc, and some of these are inevitable and some are not. I think the dharma gives us a chance to learn how to deal with some of the inevitable sufferings in life in the best way possible. There is suffering throughout your life, that is just life. If it were entirely composed of flowers and joy, then there would be no need for the dharma really would there?

genkaku

I am sure genkaku is up on theory

@RichardH -- I'm flattered you might think this, but in point of fact, I am not. If I were, I could be blowing academic smoke with the best of them.

There was a Zen teacher (don't ask me to remember the name) who counseled a correspondent sharply, saying "...and stop seeking for relief!" Secretly and not so secretly, I think everyone would like to have a little relief ... from questions, uncertainties, pains, illness, loss or whatever.

Unless I've got it wrong, it is the seeking for relief itself that constitutes a good warning and a good encouragement ... to remain patient and determined and not be tricked. Relief would mean escape and who could possibly escape from this life? And to the extent that this is true, then the seeking of relief, while not precisely wrong, is not the target of Buddhism. If you cannot escape it and cannot embrace it, what then would constitute coming to a peaceful resolution with this stuff called suffering?

I like the definition of suffering as the unwillingness to experience pain. I'm not suggesting that we all go out and become doormat masochists ... but if relief is the best we can posit for Buddhism, I have a hunch Buddhism is doomed.

Just thinking out loud here.

person

Suffering can be classified into 3 types. Suffering of suffering, suffering of change and all-pervasive suffering. This link is a short article on the 3. What you may be talking about is all-pervasive suffering.

http://thedailyenlightenment.com/2011/12/the-three-levels-of-suffering/

I am sure genkaku is up on theory... How about a first person account, person? your own direct experience?... we can all reference sutta/sutra... or post a link. I would like to hear about your actual experience.

All I know is a mostly miserable state of mind that I try to distract myself from as best I can. That method hasn't been working so well lately though. No actual helpful experience.

zenff

Technically all the good things in life are dukkha. The relief is dukkha. If not for anything else; they are dukkha because of their impermanence. That’s why a Buddha is superior to a Brahma God. Human existence is preferred over divine existence, because it’s nasty enough to want to get out of samsara entirely.
(That’s the basic Theravada-line of thinking as I understood it when I was with a Theravada group.)

Getting to your question; wanting relief from dukkha is wanting to escape from something which is dukkha and trade it for something else which is dukkha. That’s why the famous qoute says:

The ultimate Path is without difficulty. Just avoid picking and choosing.
Seng-Ts'an

Which puts us in the middle of the paradox of liberation which isn’t anything we can separate from ordinary life. Waking up (the way I see it) is not like everything changes. It’s not the end of dukkha. Maybe it’s the end of wanting the end of dukkha. I don’t know.

I can’t explain Buddhism very well when the questions are about the essential parts.
At some point, like now, I take a step back and hear myself talking like an idiot. :crazy:

You know that feeling?

ThailandTom

@zenff wow really at this moment in time this post have flown right over my head, Tom does not compute! I will read it a couple more times, maybe 40

zenff

I will read it a couple more times, maybe 40

Don’t.

Here’s the rest of the koan.
http://www.treetopzencenter.org/UltimatePath.html

ThailandTom

Ahhh thank you sir/madam. :om:

charirama

May I suggest this three part talk by Andrea Fella of the Insight Meditation Center.

http://www.audiodharma.org/talks/audio_player/1876.html

http://www.audiodharma.org/talks/audio_player/1878.html

http://www.audiodharma.org/talks/audio_player/1905.html

RichardH

I am sure genkaku is up on theory

@RichardH -- I'm flattered you might think this, but in point of fact, I am not. If I were, I could be blowing academic smoke with the best of them.

There was a Zen teacher (don't ask me to remember the name) who counseled a correspondent sharply, saying "...and stop seeking for relief!" Secretly and not so secretly, I think everyone would like to have a little relief ... from questions, uncertainties, pains, illness, loss or whatever.

Unless I've got it wrong, it is the seeking for relief itself that constitutes a good warning and a good encouragement ... to remain patient and determined and not be tricked. Relief would mean escape and who could possibly escape from this life? And to the extent that this is true, then the seeking of relief, while not precisely wrong, is not the target of Buddhism. If you cannot escape it and cannot embrace it, what then would constitute coming to a peaceful resolution with this stuff called suffering?

I like the definition of suffering as the unwillingness to experience pain. I'm not suggesting that we all go out and become doormat masochists ... but if relief is the best we can posit for Buddhism, I have a hunch Buddhism is doomed.

Just thinking out loud here.

Ahh blowing academic smoke up people's arses doesn't actually require knowledge... just google.



This sounds fair..

I like the definition of suffering as the unwillingness to experience pain.

..I would say existence.. extension in space and time.. entails pain, but pain is not dukkha, dukkha is resistance to pain. Pain without dukkha is cool and ownerless... even strong physical pain... because it only belongs to the pain, alone, everything is "alone".

There is also just plain old I-ing and pain and dukkha.. and just accepting it.. I think that is just ordinary acceptance... like having time wear down our sharp corners.


Re: Buddhism being doom or not...? I imagine it'll muddle along.

genkaku

A fellow named Thaddeus Golas, who once wrote a thin book entitled "The Lazy Man's Guide to Enlightenment," noted within those pages: "When you learn to love hell, you will be in heaven."

The observation makes for a super fortune cookie or beard-stroking religion on the one hand. But it also makes for a pretty good reality on the other.

seeker242

And the fact of the matter is, most of us might be quite upset if our worries and cares and suffering were to disappear.

If you are still upset, then your worries, cares, suffering, etc. haven't disappeared yet. So I would have to disagree.

Who would I be without my worries?

Someone who is happy and free. The master of the universe.

Who could we complain to?

No one because there would be no complaints to begin with.

How would I define myself?

You wouldn't need to, so you wouldn't.

What I wonder is if the "unsatisfactoriness" of life doesn't run a bit deeper than my current worries, my current dashed hopes, my current search for relief in a word like "suffering."

I would say it runs a lot deeper. It runs all the way to the core of this entire physical and mental world. Nothing of this world escapes it.