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DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
edited April 2012
misecmisc1;
I'm sorry. I do understand your point but I don't agree with the conclusion.
Now lets take your example to clarify the things - you say car is an obstacle as it can crush you. Now this is what a layperson will see/think - but it is not seeing the things as they are. this is not to say there is no car out there or you will not die if the car hits you badly, but the core problem is slightly subtle.
Now let me take you to what my theoretical understanding of Buddha's teachings say: you see an obstacle in car - first of all there is only a car and a you. now you think about you only as your body because you are attached to your body - if you say you are not attached to your body, then the worry of dying will not be there, so even if the car hits you and you die, then also you will see that it is not something to worry because the body is impermanent and its nature is to perish one day or the other, either by itself or by some external cause - so if something is impermanent, then your thought of keeping it as permanent and safe always, will always lead you to suffering.
Staying aware so we don't walk into things that will kill us is not a result of being attached to this body. It is a reflection of natural curiosity. "Always" is a funny word. Like I said, this is where it is good to be able to let go of letting go.
Before enlightenment, rivers were rivers and mountains were mountains; During enlightenment, rivers are no longer rivers and mountains are no longer mountains; After enlightenment, rivers are rivers and mountains are mountains.
Duality is just a tool we use and we shouldn't take it for granted. There is no seperation but there is no no-seperation either.
Holding onto letting go defeats the purpose. Life is to be lived.
But when you see the things as they are, then you will see that your body is just an aggregation of earth, water, wind and fire and it is impermanent and it is not-self, So there is no 'you' to begin the story.
Ah, but there is. I can easily accept that this form is impermanent which is why it is important to enjoy it while it lasts. To be happy and avoid suffering and to help others do the same.
It is only a matter (car) running over another matter(your body). The obstacle was not the car hitting you, the obstacle was that you do not want to die, or in other words, the obstacle was your clinging to the view of your body being your self and your clinging to keep your body as such with no change allowed to your body.
So then why bother waking up at all? If you can look deeply into that question, you will likely see where I'm going here.
Hope now you would have got my view. The above is based on my theoretical understanding only, as till now i have not experienced anything with direct experience.
My argument is based on my personal experiences as well as my theoretical study.
"If you think what you are grasping is real, there is no good in that. You can't take it with you. You want to talk about real? Show me one thing that is real. There is nothing real from the start. Every day, morning to night, gathering things, big and small, valuables...money, name and recognition. Gathering it all up into your lap like you're holding the golden key. Busy your whole life for nothing. None of this is real" ~Zen hermit monk
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DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
Denying the world is fine for a hermit but it flies in the face of inter-being and is even irresponsible in my view. The epitomy of selfish desire.
Denying the world is fine for a hermit but it flies in the face of inter-being and is even irresponsible in my view. The epitomy of selfish desire.
Seeing clearly is not the same as denying IMO. "Not real" does not mean denial IMO. This same monk, when offered food, refused it but instead gave the people his own food as a gift to them for coming to visit him and he didn't have all that much food to begin with. That is the opposite of selfishness.
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DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
A hermit lives in isolation... I feel that when we sre clearly, having compassion for all is common sense. How do we allieve suffering by hiding in a cave?
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DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
Helping the townsfolk is good and I'm sorry I responded before listening properly. In my opinion to deny reality is to deny any point to compassion. Reality is kinda what we make it.
Just because our true nature is beyond individualism is no reason to negate the individual.
Good. Because that is not what he's talking about anyway. He's talking about grasping and not grasping and the fact that there is nothing worth grasping to, to begin with. "Not real" in this context means "not empty" as in there is something substantial there that is worth holding on to, which there isn't. AKA: Not real. However, one does not need to grasp in order to have compassion. There is no negating, there is just no grasping. And non-grasping allows compassion to rise to the highest level, because it completely removes any and all selfishness allowing true Buddha level compassion to surface. That is what I think it means anyway.
Helping the townsfolk is good and I'm sorry I responded before listening properly. In my opinion to deny reality is to deny any point to compassion. Reality is kinda what we make it.
Just because our true nature is beyond individualism is no reason to negate the individual.
That's all I'm saying.
I agree and for me this is an important point. Our daily lives are lived and expressed as individuals and it is as individuals that we practice and experience all interactions.
Having personal integrity and living as we understand this means/ requires us to have a good sense of who we are as an individual. This essentially involves our families, our personal history, our culture, our education and all other influences which have moulded us into what we are today.
My years of practice within Tibetan Buddhism has not led me to wish to renounce or discard my previous experiences in any way. It has helped me to understand and change - move forward.
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DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
Good. Because that is not what he's talking about anyway. He's talking about grasping and not grasping and the fact that there is nothing worth grasping to, to begin with. "Not real" in this context means "not empty" as in there is something substantial there that is worth holding on to, which there isn't. AKA: Not real. However, one does not need to grasp in order to have compassion. There is no negating, there is just no grasping. And non-grasping allows compassion to rise to the highest level, because it completely removes any and all selfishness allowing true Buddha level compassion to surface. That is what I think it means anyway.
"Not real" means "not empty"? We are empty of a permenant self but we are also quite real. This is where we have a breakdown in terms. The only thing that I see as "unreal" is the notion that we are seperate.
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DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
Good. Because that is not what he's talking about anyway. He's talking about grasping and not grasping and the fact that there is nothing worth grasping to, to begin with. "Not real" in this context means "not empty" as in there is something substantial there that is worth holding on to, which there isn't. AKA: Not real. However, one does not need to grasp in order to have compassion. There is no negating, there is just no grasping. And non-grasping allows compassion to rise to the highest level, because it completely removes any and all selfishness allowing true Buddha level compassion to surface. That is what I think it means anyway.
"Not real" means "not empty"? We are empty of a permenant self but we are also quite real. This is where we have a breakdown in terms. The only thing that I see as "unreal" is the notion that we are seperate.
My bad! I misspoke. Correction! In the context that he is using it, "real" mean "not empty", "not real" mean "empty". That is why he said, if you think of it as real, AKA not empty, you grasp at it and can't let go, but you have to let go because you will die one day. The specific terms don't matter, the meaning behind it is whats important, which is to stop grasping at things of this world because it's not worth it. All that does is make suffering.
DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
edited April 2012
Good. Because that is not what he's talking about anyway. He's talking about grasping and not grasping and the fact that there is nothing worth grasping to, to begin with. "Not real" in this context means "not empty" as in there is something substantial there that is worth holding on to, which there isn't. AKA: Not real. However, one does not need to grasp in order to have compassion. There is no negating, there is just no grasping. And non-grasping allows compassion to rise to the highest level, because it completely removes any and all selfishness allowing true Buddha level compassion to surface. That is what I think it means anyway.
"Not real" means "not empty"? We are empty of a permenant self but we are also quite real. This is where we have a breakdown in terms. The only thing that I see as "unreal" is the notion that we are seperate.
My bad! I misspoke. Correction! In the context that he is using it, "real" mean "not empty", "not real" mean "empty". That is why he said, if you think of it as real, AKA not empty, you grasp at it and can't let go, but you have to let go because you will die one day. The specific terms don't matter, the meaning behind it is whats important, which is to stop grasping at things of this world because it's not worth it. All that does is make suffering.
I figured that's what you meant but wanted to be sure. Yes, we will all die one day but that is why it is a good idea to watch out for cars. Did Buddha get up from that tree because he was clinging to his body or the desire to free the rest of us?
To me, it doesn't matter if it is illusion unless it isn't apparent. Once we know it is illusion, we can use it better to guide us in the exploration of the universe which isn't just a place we live but our entire being.
I figured that's what you meant but wanted to be sure. Yes, we will all die one day but that is why it is a good idea to watch out for cars. Did Buddha get up from that tree because he was clinging to his body or the desire to free the rest of us?
To me, it doesn't matter if it is illusion unless it isn't apparent. Once we know it is illusion, we can use it better to guide us in the exploration of the universe which isn't just a place we live but our entire being.
IMO, the most dangerous and most important illusions, are the ones that are not apparent. Those are the ones that actually matter. Did Buddha get up from that tree because he was clinging to his body or the desire to free the rest of us? I would say neither!
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DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
the hard fact is until we directly experience it, somehow there is always something by which our mind tricks us to fell for this illusion of Maya or Mara or Samsara (whatever you call it ).
yesterday i went to a function which was for my brother-in-law's marriage.
let me tell you what happened today morning - i had my breakfast, suddenly a thought came to me - what if all this spiritual thing is actually not there - this is basically a doubt which arose in my mind today.
the problem is we do not remember our past life, so we do not know if there was any past life through which we went - then the question comes will there be any future rebirth , even if there is future rebirth then in next life we will not remember this life and if there is no future rebirth, then the story ends in this life - then why not just go merry around feeling the delight in sense pleasures like go drinking(though not much), go partying, always try to beautify our physical body, try to showcase us that we are smarter/handsome than others - like the way other people around us are enjoying.
All these doubts are the tricks by which our mind fools us.
Then i thought why we die - the thought came that due to a heart-blockage, the heart did not function, so oxygen did not flowed into the body, so the body died - so what is there anything spiritual like consciousness in it?
Then i thought how a baby is formed inside a mother's body - initially there is only a sperm cell from a man's body and a ovum cell from a female body, fermenting to form a new cell and then this cell replicates into multiple cells, so forming the mass of our bodies - but now the question arises that how does consciousness arrives in this matter . we know that we are conscious - but how does consciousness arrived inside the mother's body in that collection of multiple cells(which i think were just some combination of some atoms).
Moreover, there are NDE experiences like OBE which suggests that consciousness can stay out of our body.
So there is an illusion which needs to be clarified.
Then i remember that somewhere i had read that an important practice in the spiritual path is faith. There should be faith initially till the things unfold. If we keep on doubting, it is not going to help in any way. So since Buddha was awakened, so we can have faith in his words, or if we follow other religions, then we can have faith in their enlightened leaders. I think all the enlightened persons said the same thing - the ultimate truth is not outside, but it is inside and this ultimate truth cannot be told/explained but this ultimate truth can only be realized.
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DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
the hard fact is until we directly experience it, somehow there is always something by which our mind tricks us to fell for this illusion of Maya or Mara or Samsara (whatever you call it ).
yesterday i went to a function which was for my brother-in-law's marriage.
let me tell you what happened today morning - i had my breakfast, suddenly a thought came to me - what if all this spiritual thing is actually not there - this is basically a doubt which arose in my mind today.
the problem is we do not remember our past life, so we do not know if there was any past life through which we went - then the question comes will there be any future rebirth , even if there is future rebirth then in next life we will not remember this life and if there is no future rebirth, then the story ends in this life - then why not just go merry around feeling the delight in sense pleasures like go drinking(though not much), go partying, always try to beautify our physical body, try to showcase us that we are smarter/handsome than others - like the way other people around us are enjoying.
All these doubts are the tricks by which our mind fools us.
Then i thought why we die - the thought came that due to a heart-blockage, the heart did not function, so oxygen did not flowed into the body, so the body died - so what is there anything spiritual like consciousness in it?
Then i thought how a baby is formed inside a mother's body - initially there is only a sperm cell from a man's body and a ovum cell from a female body, fermenting to form a new cell and then this cell replicates into multiple cells, so forming the mass of our bodies - but now the question arises that how does consciousness arrives in this matter . we know that we are conscious - but how does consciousness arrived inside the mother's body in that collection of multiple cells(which i think were just some combination of some atoms).
Moreover, there are NDE experiences like OBE which suggests that consciousness can stay out of our body.
So there is an illusion which needs to be clarified.
Then i remember that somewhere i had read that an important practice in the spiritual path is faith. There should be faith initially till the things unfold. If we keep on doubting, it is not going to help in any way. So since Buddha was awakened, so we can have faith in his words, or if we follow other religions, then we can have faith in their enlightened leaders. I think all the enlightened persons said the same thing - the ultimate truth is not outside, but it is inside and this ultimate truth cannot be told/explained but this ultimate truth can only be realized.
I enjoyed that, thanks.
I've always had a fascination with this kind of thing and I'm guessing that's what initially drove me to Buddhism (as if it's an affliction, haha).
I remember being 6 or 7 and sitting at the breakfast table wondering how I could be sure my mother in the kitchen now was the same individual that I left when I went upstairs to bed last night.
Holding onto letting go defeats the purpose. Life is to be lived.
@ourself: Sorry dude, but letting go does not defeat the purpose, rather letting go leads us to the ultimate purpose.
This is not to say we should commit suicide to end this life - this is self-annihilation or nihilism. But we should not even take delight in sensual pleasures of the world, neither we should sacrifice our body by following too much of an ascetic ritual. So we should walk on the Middle Way. So this means life is to be lived, but not exactly in the way we normally live as a layman with no understanding of Dhamma.
But when you see the things as they are, then you will see that your body is just an aggregation of earth, water, wind and fire and it is impermanent and it is not-self, So there is no 'you' to begin the story.
Ah, but there is. I can easily accept that this form is impermanent which is why it is important to enjoy it while it lasts. To be happy and avoid suffering and to help others do the same.
There is a 'you' but it is not the 'you' which you think.
How can you be permanently happy and avoid suffering from enjoying a thing which is impermanent? Because of enjoying an impermanent thing, when you are not able to avoid suffering for yourself, how will you be able to help others to avoid their suffering?
Hope now you understand that there is no obstacle out there, the only obstacle is in the mind, which can be removed by understanding the Dhamma and seeing the things as they are.
I figured that's what you meant but wanted to be sure. Yes, we will all die one day but that is why it is a good idea to watch out for cars. Did Buddha get up from that tree because he was clinging to his body or the desire to free the rest of us?
To me, it doesn't matter if it is illusion unless it isn't apparent. Once we know it is illusion, we can use it better to guide us in the exploration of the universe which isn't just a place we live but our entire being.
@ourself - though this conversation you did with @seeker242, but still i am quoting it to mention some points. hope you will not mind it
It is a good idea to be careful on the road to avoid an accident - but this should be done as an act of carefulness, but not because you do not want to die. So you will then ask why we should be careful - we should be careful so that others do not get hurt due to our carelessness. Just think of this scenario - you somehow carelessly start crossing a road , a car is coming behind you and the driver suddenly realizes you will be hit and he steers the car in another direction and get the car hit by a pole leading to injury to that driver - so your carelessness cause bad effect for someone else, but you crossed the road safely. So act of carefulness should be done in the interest of both ourselves and others.
you said - To me, it doesn't matter if it is illusion unless it isn't apparent. - just think about this statement again - if illusion would have been visible through our 5 senses, then why it would have been called an illusion of Maya or Mara or Samsara. So since there is illusion, so it is important for us to end this illusion by removing ignorance with wisdom.
Thanks for the birthday wishes !! My birthday is the 16th which was yesterday, which yes, was when you asked the question. I think - depending on time zones, when you asked as opposed to when I answered etc - lol
my timezone is IST. which timezone you are in, let me know - then we can figure out when i asked and when you answered - but my feeling is since this striking incident has happened, so the timezones may also match to make it more striking LOL
My time zone is CST - Central standard zone. Time zone offset: UTC + 9:30 hours
While we're dreaming, we don't think we're dreaming. We take things very seriously in the dream , do all sorts of tings like traveling to a place we never seen before, even flying!. We only realize it's just a dream after we wake up to a different reality.
Thats the thing about ignorance - we can only see it ( our own - which is the only ignorance we need to be concerned with - lol ), and it can only be understood, in hindsight.
Once we are awake we know it was a dream - and that the experience was the type of experience we have in dreams ie, the travelling and flying.
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DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
Sorry dude, but letting go does not defeat the purpose, rather letting go leads us to the ultimate purpose.
No offence but if you are going to school me, please make sure you read for comprehension. Holding onto letting go means you are clinging to the notion of letting go. What do we do when we have let go of everything? We let go of letting go.
There is a 'you' but it is not the 'you' which you think.
How can you be permanently happy and avoid suffering from enjoying a thing which is impermanent? Because of enjoying an impermanent thing, when you are not able to avoid suffering for yourself, how will you be able to help others to avoid their suffering?
Hope now you understand that there is no obstacle out there, the only obstacle is in the mind, which can be removed by understanding the Dhamma and seeing the things as they are.
How do you know what I am thinking when you don't try to understand what I'm saying? The "I" I am speaking of is not just this form but is all inclusive. And again, it doesn't matter if all is mind because we are still here whether we like it or not, lol.
It is a good idea to be careful on the road to avoid an accident - but this should be done as an act of carefulness, but not because you do not want to die. So you will then ask why we should be careful - we should be careful so that others do not get hurt due to our carelessness. Just think of this scenario - you somehow carelessly start crossing a road , a car is coming behind you and the driver suddenly realizes you will be hit and he steers the car in another direction and get the car hit by a pole leading to injury to that driver - so your carelessness cause bad effect for someone else, but you crossed the road safely. So act of carefulness should be done in the interest of both ourselves and others.
I don't see how this counters what I said... All you're doing here is agreeing with me.
you said - To me, it doesn't matter if it is illusion unless it isn't apparent. - just think about this statement again - if illusion would have been visible through our 5 senses, then why it would have been called an illusion of Maya or Mara or Samsara. So since there is illusion, so it is important for us to end this illusion by removing ignorance with wisdom.
Well, I guess if it never becomes apparent, then there it is.
If you like you can re-read my post and try again.
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DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
edited April 2012
My time zone is CST - Central standard zone. Time zone offset: UTC + 9:30 hours
While we're dreaming, we don't think we're dreaming. We take things very seriously in the dream , do all sorts of tings like traveling to a place we never seen before, even flying!. We only realize it's just a dream after we wake up to a different reality.
Thats the thing about ignorance - we can only see it ( our own - which is the only ignorance we need to be concerned with - lol ), and it can only be understood, in hindsight.
Once we are awake we know it was a dream - and that the experience was the type of experience we have in dreams ie, the travelling and flying.
I often have lucid dreams where I don't wake up right away once I know it's a dream.
mise, another thought. What if the internet enhances the connectivity of organisms and has enough connections to rival the human brain not to mention the connections of all the brains connected to the internet.
I suspect the internet will gain consciousness!
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DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
mise, another thought. What if the internet enhances the connectivity of organisms and has enough connections to rival the human brain not to mention the connections of all the brains connected to the internet.
@ourself : Well, first thing i am not schooling you, as I myself is trying to understand Buddha's teachings.
Second your statements seem to be on both sides- let me give an example:
When i said - But when you see the things as they are, then you will see that your body is just an aggregation of earth, water, wind and fire and it is impermanent and it is not-self, So there is no 'you' to begin the story.
Then you said - Ah, but there is. I can easily accept that this form is impermanent which is why it is important to enjoy it while it lasts. To be happy and avoid suffering and to help others do the same.
So here you are saying that you want to enjoy your form because it is impermanent, which only shows grasping on the form - which will lead to suffering.
You said - Holding onto letting go means you are clinging to the notion of letting go. What do we do when we have let go of everything? We let go of letting go. - Holding on to letting go is helpful till we reach the stage there is nothing left to let go. Then letting go of letting go is done - this thing is the last step because after this what is realized is Nirvana.
I said - There is a 'you' but it is not the 'you' which you think.
then you said - How do you know what I am thinking when you don't try to understand what I'm saying? The "I" I am speaking of is not just this form but is all inclusive. And again, it doesn't matter if all is mind because we are still here whether we like it or not, lol.
So now please explain to me what does 'I' mean to you? Then we can take this discussion forward.
Holding onto letting go is impossible (that's like being attached to not being attached..) and letting go of letting go doesn't make sense. The mind either lets go or it doesn't. The more it holds on, the more suffering. The more it lets go, the more peace there will be. It's that simple.
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DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
edited April 2012
@ourself : Well, first thing i am not schooling you, as I myself is trying to understand Buddha's teachings.
Second your statements seem to be on both sides- let me give an example:
When i said - But when you see the things as they are, then you will see that your body is just an aggregation of earth, water, wind and fire and it is impermanent and it is not-self, So there is no 'you' to begin the story.
Then you said - Ah, but there is. I can easily accept that this form is impermanent which is why it is important to enjoy it while it lasts. To be happy and avoid suffering and to help others do the same.
So here you are saying that you want to enjoy your form because it is impermanent, which only shows grasping on the form - which will lead to suffering.
It shows nothing of the sort in my opinion... Acceptance and finding joy in something even though it will not last is not the same as grasping.
You said - Holding onto letting go means you are clinging to the notion of letting go. What do we do when we have let go of everything? We let go of letting go. - Holding on to letting go is helpful till we reach the stage there is nothing left to let go. Then letting go of letting go is done - this thing is the last step because after this what is realized is Nirvana.
Awakening is not the end... It's but another step on the path. Nirvana is the path itself.
I said - There is a 'you' but it is not the 'you' which you think.
then you said - How do you know what I am thinking when you don't try to understand what I'm saying? The "I" I am speaking of is not just this form but is all inclusive. And again, it doesn't matter if all is mind because we are still here whether we like it or not, lol.
So now please explain to me what does 'I' mean to you? Then we can take this discussion forward.
I'm pretty sure I have already.
Hmm, I may have gotten my threads confused... Since edit time is running out I'm just going to post a snippet from another thread.
I found myself by seeing there is no permenant individual self. It is said that we are self aware because we distinguish between our self and the environment but this is wrong. We become more fully realised when we see that the distinction is just a by-product of evolution.
I continue to find myself within each passing moment.
A rose is alive... It feels and reacts to its environment but because there is no brain, there is no distinguishing of any kind. The rose is the entire universe. The rose is you and the rose is me.
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DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
edited April 2012
Holding onto letting go is impossible (that's like being attached to not being attached..)
It's an affliction that does happen.
and letting go of letting go doesn't make sense. The mind either lets go or it doesn't. The more it holds on, the more suffering. The more it lets go, the more peace there will be. It's that simple.
You're looking at ideas. But in practice, such notions don't exist. As I said, the mind either lets go of something or it holds onto it, not both.
Holding onto letting go is impossible (that's like being attached to not being attached..)
It's an affliction that does happen.
If it does, than it is holding onto a fake kind of letting go, which is not really letting go at all.
and letting go of letting go doesn't make sense. The mind either lets go or it doesn't. The more it holds on, the more suffering. The more it lets go, the more peace there will be. It's that simple.
You're looking at ideas. But in practice, such notions don't exist. As I said, the mind either lets go of something or it holds onto it, not both.
Holding onto letting go is impossible (that's like being attached to not being attached..)
It's an affliction that does happen.
i think @ourself is simply referring to having craving for the idea of letting go. Not the act of letting go in itself.
Similar to the "you must want enlightenment and go for it, but craving it will make this impossible."
Could be. But at first I was mainly replying to misc who said:
Holding on to letting go is helpful till we reach the stage there is nothing left to let go. Then letting go of letting go is done - this thing is the last step because after this what is realized is Nirvana.
However, patbb, you could be right. Also everybody may have another idea of letting go. The important thing is to practice it so it becomes clear what letting go actually means.
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DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
edited April 2012
Like a precious gem trapped in a chunk of mud, the more we remove, the more we reveal.
At the same time, mud is life.
Some things are good to hold onto... Compassion, meditation, inter-being... The art of tying our shoes.
But yes @patbb, that is what I was meaning. I can't remember the exact parable but it's about a monk asking what we do when we've let go of everything and his teacher puts him through the gears until he tells him to let go of letting go.
What you said reminded me of insomnia when we try to force ourselves to sleep... Just ain't happening!
You're looking at ideas. But in practice, such notions don't exist. As I said, the mind either lets go of something or it holds onto it, not both.
Holding onto letting go is impossible (that's like being attached to not being attached..)
It's an affliction that does happen.
i think @ourself is simply referring to having craving for the idea of letting go. Not the act of letting go in itself.
Similar to the "you must want enlightenment and go for it, but craving it will make this impossible."
Could be. But at first I was mainly replying to misc who said:
Holding on to letting go is helpful till we reach the stage there is nothing left to let go. Then letting go of letting go is done - this thing is the last step because after this what is realized is Nirvana.
However, patbb, you could be right. Also everybody may have another idea of letting go. The important thing is to practice it so it becomes clear what letting go actually means.
@sabre: my understanding says - you are right. thanks for correcting me. there is nothing like letting go of letting go because letting go is always with respect to an object with which we are attached at the first place, which obviously would have been due to it being perceived by our 6 senses.
The desire of letting go of everything, even though has craving involved in it, is good as it leads one to strive for it and when everything is let go of, then this desire itself will go off.
Awakening is not the end... It's but another step on the path. Nirvana is the path itself.
My understanding of Buddha's teachings says: Nirvana is not the path, but Nirvana is where the path leads to. The path itself is the eight-fold path and when all the factors of Awakening have arisen, then Nirvana is realized.
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DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
Awakening is not the end... It's but another step on the path. Nirvana is the path itself.
My understanding of Buddha's teachings says: Nirvana is not the path, but Nirvana is where the path leads to. The path itself is the eight-fold path and when all the factors of Awakening have arisen, then Nirvana is realized.
I dig it, however my understanding of Buddhas teachings is that we cannot awaken to something that isn't there in the first place.
Acceptance and finding joy in something even though it will not last is not the same as grasping
My understanding says: It may not be grasping for the object itself, but it will be grasping on the desire to find joy (even in something that is impermanent) - a subtle grasping which may not appear at gross level.
So better shall be - no like, no dislike to any phenomena as all phenomena are unworthy of attachment.
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DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
Acceptance and finding joy in something even though it will not last is not the same as grasping
My understanding says: It may not be grasping for the object itself, but it will be grasping on the desire to find joy (even in something that is impermanent) - a subtle grasping which may not appear at gross level.
So better shall be - no like, no dislike to any phenomena as all phenomena are unworthy of attachment.
Then why did Buddha get up from the Bodhi tree?
In one post you sound like you understand the reason for compassion and in the next you sound nhilistic...
We may just have a communications problem or something because we seem to think the other keeps contradicting themselves.
Awakening is not the end... It's but another step on the path. Nirvana is the path itself.
My understanding of Buddha's teachings says: Nirvana is not the path, but Nirvana is where the path leads to. The path itself is the eight-fold path and when all the factors of Awakening have arisen, then Nirvana is realized.
I dig it, however my understanding of Buddhas teachings is that we cannot awaken to something that isn't there in the first place.
Nirvana is right here, right now.
@ourself: Nirvana is right here, right now. But this does not mean Nirvana is the path. Even though Nirvana is right here, right now, till we attain it we are on the path to it and not at it. The definition of Nirvana is "Nirvana is." - when we are there, we will know we are there - till we are not there, we are not there - so it is not the path, rather eight-fold path is the path which leads to the arising of the factors of Awakening which leads to realization of Nirvana.
Nirvana is always there in the first place. But till we remain deluded with ignorance, we do not realize it. After the ignorance is removed with wisdom, we may get Awakened.
Acceptance and finding joy in something even though it will not last is not the same as grasping
My understanding says: It may not be grasping for the object itself, but it will be grasping on the desire to find joy (even in something that is impermanent) - a subtle grasping which may not appear at gross level.
So better shall be - no like, no dislike to any phenomena as all phenomena are unworthy of attachment.
Experiencing joy as it arises does not have to lead to grasping for more or to having adversion of non joy ( for want of a better way to express it at the moment - lol ). Really being live means being open to whatever arises. In my experience, over time there is less of the highs and lows arising ... through practice over time - not through seeking, there just is; as I say, from a retrospective glance.
Acceptance and finding joy in something even though it will not last is not the same as grasping
My understanding says: It may not be grasping for the object itself, but it will be grasping on the desire to find joy (even in something that is impermanent) - a subtle grasping which may not appear at gross level.
So better shall be - no like, no dislike to any phenomena as all phenomena are unworthy of attachment.
Then why did Buddha get up from the Bodhi tree?
In one post you sound like you understand the reason for compassion and in the next you sound nhilistic...
We may just have a communications problem or something because we seem to think the other keeps contradicting themselves.
I work early so I'm going to sleep on it.
@ourself: Hmm there seems to be a communication problem. Does saying there is no-self and no like, no dislike to all phenomena sounds nihilistic to you? If yes, then you may need to understand the Dhamma again. If no, then let me know the instances where you found i sounded nihilistic. Then i may be able to try to remove this communication gap. To clarify what i meant by saying - no like, no dislike to all phenomena - was that we should be content with all the phenonmena as they are and try to see the things as they really are.
you said - Then why did Buddha get up from the Bodhi tree? How can i know the answer to this question, when i do not know about myself till now. But i guess as i think i read it somewhere - Buddha, after getting Awakened, had the options to either liberate or come back in this world to help others to liberate, so Buddha decided to come back in this world to help others to liberate, so he got up from the Bodhi tree. Do you think of any other reason why Buddha got up from the Bodhi tree? Please tell.
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DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
If Nirvana is realised then it is something that is revealed, not something that appears.
If Nirvana is realised then it is something that is revealed, not something that appears.
who said Nirvana appears? Nirvana is always there, but due to ignorance it is not realized. After ignorance is removed with wisdom, Nirvana is realized.
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DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
edited April 2012
How can i know the answer to this question, when i do not know about myself till now. But i guess as i think i read it somewhere - Buddha, after getting Awakened, had the options to either liberate or come back in this world to help others to liberate, so Buddha decided to come back in this world to help others to liberate, so he got up from the Bodhi tree. Do you think of any other reason why Buddha got up from the Bodhi tree? Please tell.
He wanted to share his insight so we might free ourselves from our suffering like he did.
However, this desire would be just another attachment in your view if I understand you correctly.
If awakening is the destination, then was Buddha not awake when he decided to spread the Dharma?
who said Nirvana appears? Nirvana is always there, but due to ignorance it is not realized. After ignorance is removed with wisdom, Nirvana is realized.
Then Nirvana is the path. The path and the destination are one.
who said Nirvana appears? Nirvana is always there, but due to ignorance it is not realized. After ignorance is removed with wisdom, Nirvana is realized.
Then Nirvana is the path. The path and the destination are one.
My understanding: Till Nirvana is not realized, the view in which we operate is the conditioned view of Samsara. These views Nirvana and Samsara are mutually exclusive - we cannot be in both the views simultaneously, the only exception which I know to this is Buddha, who continued in this world after getting Awakened.
Nirvana is the ultimate view of reality through wisdom. Samsara is the conditioned view of reality through ignorance.
An example which i can think of : a moon covered with a dark cloud. till the dark cloud is there, we will not be able to see the moon, but this does not mean the moon is not there. Ultimate reality or Nirvana or Self-Realization(in Hinduism) is covered with the cloud of ignorance. Till this cloud of ignorance is not removed by the wind of wisdom, till then Ultimate reality or Nirvana or Self-Realization(in Hinduism) cannot be realized. But when this cloud of ignorance is removed by the wind of wisdom, then Ultimate reality or Nirvana or Self-Realization(in Hinduism) will be realized. But removing the cloud of ignorance by the wind of wisdom is the process (or the eight-fold path) to see the moon and it is not the moon itself. So the eight-fold path is not Nirvana. The eight-fold path is the path which leads to the arising of the factors of Awakening which leads to realization of Nirvana.
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DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
Nirvana, like happiness, is not something that happens "one day, when everything is perfect", it is right here and right now.
If we are mindful of it, we can touch it and carry it with us.
Non-seperation is the art of being attached without ownership... To be an individual without forgetting the collective and to be the collective without forgetting the individual.
This is inter-being and I am attached.
This form and this individual self being expressed right now will one day be gone and forgotten but there's no getting rid of me.
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DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
edited April 2012
I'm not trying to sound odd or anything... I'm a work in progress afterall.
It's an interesting topic and I thank you for starting it.
Now, I must sleep, lol.
I follow the eightfold path and recognise the four noble truths and I take refuge in the Dharma presented by Buddha to the best of my abilities. I know there is a few things I need to work on such as patience and right speech but I believe I understand.
How can i know the answer to this question, when i do not know about myself till now. But i guess as i think i read it somewhere - Buddha, after getting Awakened, had the options to either liberate or come back in this world to help others to liberate, so Buddha decided to come back in this world to help others to liberate, so he got up from the Bodhi tree. Do you think of any other reason why Buddha got up from the Bodhi tree? Please tell.
He wanted to share his insight so we might free ourselves from our suffering like he did.
However, this desire would be just another attachment in your view if I understand you correctly.
My understanding: In case of Buddha, it would be a selfless act out of compassion for the removal of suffering of others, as he did it after getting Awakened.
If awakening is the destination, then was Buddha not awake when he decided to spread the Dharma?
My understanding: Buddha did not spread the Dharma, but Buddha discovered and taught the Dharma or Dhamma. So after getting Awakened, Buddha taught the Dhamma to others for the Awakening of others. Hope this answers your question.
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DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
edited April 2012
Not really. How does one teach the Dharma without spreading it?
And you also seem to be saying that it is ok to be attached to compassion and the hope that others will awaken.
Comments
I'm sorry. I do understand your point but I don't agree with the conclusion. Staying aware so we don't walk into things that will kill us is not a result of being attached to this body. It is a reflection of natural curiosity. "Always" is a funny word. Like I said, this is where it is good to be able to let go of letting go.
Before enlightenment, rivers were rivers and mountains were mountains;
During enlightenment, rivers are no longer rivers and mountains are no longer mountains;
After enlightenment, rivers are rivers and mountains are mountains.
Duality is just a tool we use and we shouldn't take it for granted. There is no seperation but there is no no-seperation either.
Holding onto letting go defeats the purpose. Life is to be lived. Ah, but there is. I can easily accept that this form is impermanent which is why it is important to enjoy it while it lasts. To be happy and avoid suffering and to help others do the same. So then why bother waking up at all? If you can look deeply into that question, you will likely see where I'm going here.
My argument is based on my personal experiences as well as my theoretical study.
Just because our true nature is beyond individualism is no reason to negate the individual.
That's all I'm saying.
Having personal integrity and living as we understand this means/ requires us to have a good sense of who we are as an individual. This essentially involves our families, our personal history, our culture, our education and all other influences which have moulded us into what we are today.
My years of practice within Tibetan Buddhism has not led me to wish to renounce or discard my previous experiences in any way. It has helped me to understand and change - move forward.
We are real. Why?
Where did that kiss with my ex go? Was it real?
To me, it doesn't matter if it is illusion unless it isn't apparent. Once we know it is illusion, we can use it better to guide us in the exploration of the universe which isn't just a place we live but our entire being.
the hard fact is until we directly experience it, somehow there is always something by which our mind tricks us to fell for this illusion of Maya or Mara or Samsara (whatever you call it
yesterday i went to a function which was for my brother-in-law's marriage.
let me tell you what happened today morning - i had my breakfast, suddenly a thought came to me - what if all this spiritual thing is actually not there - this is basically a doubt which arose in my mind today.
the problem is we do not remember our past life, so we do not know if there was any past life through which we went - then the question comes will there be any future rebirth , even if there is future rebirth then in next life we will not remember this life and if there is no future rebirth, then the story ends in this life - then why not just go merry around feeling the delight in sense pleasures like go drinking(though not much), go partying, always try to beautify our physical body, try to showcase us that we are smarter/handsome than others - like the way other people around us are enjoying.
All these doubts are the tricks by which our mind fools us.
Then i thought why we die - the thought came that due to a heart-blockage, the heart did not function, so oxygen did not flowed into the body, so the body died - so what is there anything spiritual like consciousness in it?
Then i thought how a baby is formed inside a mother's body - initially there is only a sperm cell from a man's body and a ovum cell from a female body, fermenting to form a new cell and then this cell replicates into multiple cells, so forming the mass of our bodies - but now the question arises that how does consciousness arrives in this matter . we know that we are conscious - but how does consciousness arrived inside the mother's body in that collection of multiple cells(which i think were just some combination of some atoms).
Moreover, there are NDE experiences like OBE which suggests that consciousness can stay out of our body.
So there is an illusion which needs to be clarified.
Then i remember that somewhere i had read that an important practice in the spiritual path is faith. There should be faith initially till the things unfold. If we keep on doubting, it is not going to help in any way. So since Buddha was awakened, so we can have faith in his words, or if we follow other religions, then we can have faith in their enlightened leaders. I think all the enlightened persons said the same thing - the ultimate truth is not outside, but it is inside and this ultimate truth cannot be told/explained but this ultimate truth can only be realized.
I've always had a fascination with this kind of thing and I'm guessing that's what initially drove me to Buddhism (as if it's an affliction, haha).
I remember being 6 or 7 and sitting at the breakfast table wondering how I could be sure my mother in the kitchen now was the same individual that I left when I went upstairs to bed last night.
This is not to say we should commit suicide to end this life - this is self-annihilation or nihilism. But we should not even take delight in sensual pleasures of the world, neither we should sacrifice our body by following too much of an ascetic ritual. So we should walk on the Middle Way. So this means life is to be lived, but not exactly in the way we normally live as a layman with no understanding of Dhamma. There is a 'you' but it is not the 'you' which you think.
How can you be permanently happy and avoid suffering from enjoying a thing which is impermanent? Because of enjoying an impermanent thing, when you are not able to avoid suffering for yourself, how will you be able to help others to avoid their suffering?
Hope now you understand that there is no obstacle out there, the only obstacle is in the mind, which can be removed by understanding the Dhamma and seeing the things as they are.
It is a good idea to be careful on the road to avoid an accident - but this should be done as an act of carefulness, but not because you do not want to die. So you will then ask why we should be careful - we should be careful so that others do not get hurt due to our carelessness. Just think of this scenario - you somehow carelessly start crossing a road , a car is coming behind you and the driver suddenly realizes you will be hit and he steers the car in another direction and get the car hit by a pole leading to injury to that driver - so your carelessness cause bad effect for someone else, but you crossed the road safely. So act of carefulness should be done in the interest of both ourselves and others.
you said - To me, it doesn't matter if it is illusion unless it isn't apparent. - just think about this statement again - if illusion would have been visible through our 5 senses, then why it would have been called an illusion of Maya or Mara or Samsara. So since there is illusion, so it is important for us to end this illusion by removing ignorance with wisdom.
my timezone is IST. which timezone you are in, let me know - then we can figure out when i asked and when you answered - but my feeling is since this striking incident has happened, so the timezones may also match to make it more striking LOL
Time zone offset: UTC + 9:30 hours Thats the thing about ignorance - we can only see it ( our own - which is the only ignorance we need to be concerned with - lol ), and it can only be understood, in hindsight.
Once we are awake we know it was a dream - and that the experience was the type of experience we have in dreams ie, the travelling and flying.
If you like you can re-read my post and try again.
@Misemisc: Because we have six senses.
I suspect the internet will gain consciousness!
I have a sneaky feeling you'd enjoy it!
Second your statements seem to be on both sides- let me give an example:
When i said - But when you see the things as they are, then you will see that your body is just an aggregation of earth, water, wind and fire and it is impermanent and it is not-self, So there is no 'you' to begin the story.
Then you said - Ah, but there is. I can easily accept that this form is impermanent which is why it is important to enjoy it while it lasts. To be happy and avoid suffering and to help others do the same.
So here you are saying that you want to enjoy your form because it is impermanent, which only shows grasping on the form - which will lead to suffering.
You said - Holding onto letting go means you are clinging to the notion of letting go. What do we do when we have let go of everything? We let go of letting go. - Holding on to letting go is helpful till we reach the stage there is nothing left to let go. Then letting go of letting go is done - this thing is the last step because after this what is realized is Nirvana.
I said - There is a 'you' but it is not the 'you' which you think.
then you said - How do you know what I am thinking when you don't try to understand what I'm saying? The "I" I am speaking of is not just this form but is all inclusive. And again, it doesn't matter if all is mind because we are still here whether we like it or not, lol.
So now please explain to me what does 'I' mean to you? Then we can take this discussion forward.
Hmm, I may have gotten my threads confused... Since edit time is running out I'm just going to post a snippet from another thread.
I found myself by seeing there is no permenant individual self. It is said that we are self aware because we distinguish between our self and the environment but this is wrong. We become more fully realised when we see that the distinction is just a by-product of evolution.
I continue to find myself within each passing moment.
A rose is alive... It feels and reacts to its environment but because there is no brain, there is no distinguishing of any kind. The rose is the entire universe. The rose is you and the rose is me.
Are you at peace?
Are you at peace?
I'm fine, thanks for asking.
Not the act of letting go in itself.
Similar to the "you must want enlightenment and go for it, but craving it will make this impossible."
At the same time, mud is life.
Some things are good to hold onto... Compassion, meditation, inter-being... The art of tying our shoes.
But yes @patbb, that is what I was meaning. I can't remember the exact parable but it's about a monk asking what we do when we've let go of everything and his teacher puts him through the gears until he tells him to let go of letting go.
What you said reminded me of insomnia when we try to force ourselves to sleep... Just ain't happening!
The middle is in the middle for a reason...
The desire of letting go of everything, even though has craving involved in it, is good as it leads one to strive for it and when everything is let go of, then this desire itself will go off.
Nirvana is right here, right now.
So better shall be - no like, no dislike to any phenomena as all phenomena are unworthy of attachment.
In one post you sound like you understand the reason for compassion and in the next you sound nhilistic...
We may just have a communications problem or something because we seem to think the other keeps contradicting themselves.
I work early so I'm going to sleep on it.
Nirvana is always there in the first place. But till we remain deluded with ignorance, we do not realize it. After the ignorance is removed with wisdom, we may get Awakened.
you said - Then why did Buddha get up from the Bodhi tree?
How can i know the answer to this question, when i do not know about myself till now. But i guess as i think i read it somewhere - Buddha, after getting Awakened, had the options to either liberate or come back in this world to help others to liberate, so Buddha decided to come back in this world to help others to liberate, so he got up from the Bodhi tree. Do you think of any other reason why Buddha got up from the Bodhi tree? Please tell.
However, this desire would be just another attachment in your view if I understand you correctly.
If awakening is the destination, then was Buddha not awake when he decided to spread the Dharma? Then Nirvana is the path. The path and the destination are one.
Nirvana is the ultimate view of reality through wisdom. Samsara is the conditioned view of reality through ignorance.
An example which i can think of : a moon covered with a dark cloud. till the dark cloud is there, we will not be able to see the moon, but this does not mean the moon is not there. Ultimate reality or Nirvana or Self-Realization(in Hinduism) is covered with the cloud of ignorance. Till this cloud of ignorance is not removed by the wind of wisdom, till then Ultimate reality or Nirvana or Self-Realization(in Hinduism) cannot be realized. But when this cloud of ignorance is removed by the wind of wisdom, then Ultimate reality or Nirvana or Self-Realization(in Hinduism) will be realized. But removing the cloud of ignorance by the wind of wisdom is the process (or the eight-fold path) to see the moon and it is not the moon itself. So the eight-fold path is not Nirvana. The eight-fold path is the path which leads to the arising of the factors of Awakening which leads to realization of Nirvana.
If we are mindful of it, we can touch it and carry it with us.
Non-seperation is the art of being attached without ownership... To be an individual without forgetting the collective and to be the collective without forgetting the individual.
This is inter-being and I am attached.
This form and this individual self being expressed right now will one day be gone and forgotten but there's no getting rid of me.
It's an interesting topic and I thank you for starting it.
Now, I must sleep, lol.
I follow the eightfold path and recognise the four noble truths and I take refuge in the Dharma presented by Buddha to the best of my abilities. I know there is a few things I need to work on such as patience and right speech but I believe I understand.
I just keep hitting the snooze button.
And you also seem to be saying that it is ok to be attached to compassion and the hope that others will awaken.
It is about intention.