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Here Is a Noodle Scratcher
ThailandTom
Veteran
Okay so as a species it is commonly known that we have brains and that we have consciousness. But there is actually no way to actually prove we have a consciousness from a scientific point of view, you cannot measure it with any tool. But if we just accept that there is consciousness because I assume we can all agree that even though it is not able to be proven, we all think it exists right? Good. So, this consciousness, it gives us our identity, personality, who we are in retrospect. is the brain merely a receiver like a radio or does it create consciousness?
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Are you asking whether counsciousness is "the individual "? The part that makes you, you?
Lovely symphony or discordant melody.
btw, I just read an article that said that cetaceans (dolphins, whales) are self-aware, show compassion and empathy, and have more complex brains that ours. Impressive.
I had never heard of another animal being self aware? ...I thought it was only a human gift. Can you remember where you saw this. The implications would be phenomenal.
Or actors in a stage...dancing in an empty room..
A dream with all the seething that of a demon dreaming.
edit: @ThailandTom How many men listen to their women? It's like herding wild dingos.
What was this whale thinking?
Are you insane? You never ask a lady her age! Faux pas!
lol, this topic has quickly swung around to whales
@Lookingformyway I don't blame you, LFMW. I think it's hideously unfair that the only option for many students these days is loans rather than grants. Plus the cost of higher ed has skyrocketed way beyond the rate of inflation. It's anti-democratic, as I've said here before.
Sorry, off topic.
(Soul meant the combination of mind, body and heart)
(Plato "Apology" 30B)
Socrates encouraged others to pay attention to the mind and soul and not be governed by bodily appetites and needs.
Well we are all level 1.
When we look at the food chain here on Earth it seems to us to be quite cruel. Small fish are eaten by big fish and big fish are eaten by bigger fish etc. What does it all mean?
At each stage of the food chain, matter is raised up to a higher level of conciseness. Humans are at the top of the food chain and we are the ones who have developed the telescope in it's many forms and we are the ones who are reaching out into the Universe with our spacecraft and our ability to make some sense out of what we see. We are literally the eyes and ears of the Universe as it slowly becomes self aware.
Some humans along the way have been able to see the true nature of reality and have actually tried to teach the idea that all men are brothers/sisters and that we should have respect for all living creatures. The Buddha and Jesus were great men with a loving message, but they actually go against this idea that we must devour each other for the advancement of awareness. They were able to see through the veil of illusion and teach us that we are all the same and that we should be nice to each other.
I read a very interesting article in the Shambhala Sun called "The Cosmos Wakes Up" that talks more about this idea.
Again, this is not something I agree with doing now, but when I was experimenting with acid 3-4 years ago, there were profound moments where certain aspects of consciousness would become a realization to me. The illusion of time as we view it as humans became very clear to me on a few trips, and also the ability to tap into other peoples minds. Me and a couple of friends tested it a few times and we got some pretty amazing outcomes lets just say.
I actually think that consciousness could be the fabric of the universe and we have these (as Alison called them), instruments being our brains that act as a kind of radio tuning into it.
Does it mean that what is experienced is any more real than the reality before? or does it mean that the brain is unable to maintain the usual output and by losing this filter and analysing the situation with the non-acid mentality, parallels are drawn which present little correlation in either version of reality?
We know at least that everything we see / experience / live is helpfully constructed by our brain - this allows us to negotiate the incredibly complex universe - even the concept of seeing and walking are endlessly impossible! but they occur none the less - effortlessly...
So yes - without a brain, you would not be experiencing this reality - when the brain puts together a 'theory / explanation / concept' it is putting together a series of 1-0 links and extrapolating (so q1 = yes, q2 = yes, q3 = no... therefore this situation is a 1-1-0 - compare that against other situations to see what a range of responses is to a 1-1-0 - make it so - well done you made it out of bed - kind of like that except its fuzzier more like how the universe itself works)
At this stage of our development, we consider that we are unweaving the fabric of the ultimate reality - our tools are broadly the sciences with mathematics being the purest form - however - there is a limit to this notion - first that mathematics breaks down just when we dont want it to and second the universe isnt thus far co-operating in the process.
Whatever the ultimate answer - it is clear that in the process of living, we are bringing the intangible to the tangible - we cannot be certain that either 'exist' but we can see it before us every moment - I think, I act, things happen - can we be so arrogant as to seriously believe that we create the intangible in the first place? Is that arrogance when all this may just be in my head or your head? probably - it seems the evidence doesnt point to our being the creator rather our desire to control and feel important might.
Are we receivers for the higher consciousness? perhaps - but in that regard, everything is a receiver for the intangible - thus far the best thinking is that matter forms around an observed mathematical concept...
what does that mean for the concept as a whole? Is the intangible the same as the tangible - does it have purpose and does it exist without the tangible? I dont think that our brains will ever be able to truly comprehend reality as they're just not designed to think in that way - at best, we may appreciate the balanced equation and try to explain what that means in a way roughly digestable by our brain - but by explaining, we attempt to make the intangible tangible... are we ever able to comprehend the intangible in any other way?
cant remember all of this sufi poem I read - it was explaining 'reality' as rising on the crest of a wave and when the wave is gone so is the reality (but the crest becomes a trough? its the same from another view?), or sand that stops for a moment's rest before its blown from east to west... anyway, it ends with what is this thing that is revealed? It is something the mind has never seen...
Apes, Bottlenose dolphins, Orcas, Elephants, and European Magpies are the only animals known to have this quality.
Buddhist teachings say consciousness is produced from causes and conditions that in part depend upon the body, that the mind and body support each other. So the idea that mental events happen outside the brain and then the brain just receives them already completed doesn't seem to fit.
Also, there was a recent study where the brain was shown to make decisions before we became aware of them. http://www.wired.com/science/discoveries/news/2008/04/mind_decision
So if the brain processes happen prior to awareness how can the brain be receiving the information?
So I don't think consciousness is solely a product of the brain, but its also not independent of it.