Cynicism blocks practice.

RichardH

Cynicism knows it is smart... It knows what people are really like, and is alert to credulity in a devitalized and desacralized world. It it closed to whole hearted practice . At least this is my take on cynicism... having had bouts of it at one time or another.. The world was drained of the playful magic that requires innocent trust, and closed to the Dharma, because letting go is an act of innocence.
Just my view..

What do other people think about cynicism? Thanks.

genkaku

Cynicism is overtly assured and self-serving. Skepticism is merely doubtful. Which is which and how useful it is strikes me as personal.

As regards Buddhist practice, great doubt (a sine qua non) is preceded by small doubt ... sometimes in the form of skepticism or even cynicism.

The only effective clarification of either of these approaches that I can think of relies on determination. If you're feeling skeptical or even cynical, go ahead. Never mind the true believers saying that you must trust this or must trust that. If you doubt, then doubt ... AND keep on practicing.

Just my take.

Jeffrey

Cynicism is overtly assured and self-serving. Skepticism is merely doubtful. Which is which and how useful it is strikes me as personal.

As regards Buddhist practice, great doubt (a sine qua non) is preceded by small doubt ... sometimes in the form of skepticism or even cynicism.

The only effective clarification of either of these approaches that I can think of relies on determination. If you're feeling skeptical or even cynical, go ahead. Never mind the true believers saying that you must trust this or must trust that. If you doubt, then doubt ... AND keep on practicing.

Just my take.

I always say this in many cases. I call it going full force and not being divided.

taiyaki

I believe that is why compassion, merit, and ethics are taught in the beginning.
These set up the right conditions for one to lean into prajna wisdom.

Zayl

Oh I'm a heavy cynic. And you know what they say, Cynics are disappointed idealists...

person

Nice OP, but what can you hope to accomplish by posting it, really.

zenff

Genkaku’s post made me think of something I suppose many people have in a retreat or sesshin; the day the motivation of doing it is suddenly gone. Gone completely. The day you see with absolute clarity the insanity of doing sesshin and of practice as a whole and of all human endeavor now that you think about it.

It’s not the end. After a good night of sleep it settles down and it was just day three or four.

Cynicism is just like enthusiasm or like being happy and being depressed. They are on the spectrum.
We all have multiple personality disorder, to some degree.

Nothing blocks practice. Practice includes everything.

tbunton

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cynicism

seems a lot has changed since 5 BCE

Cinorjer

Genkaku’s post made me think of something I suppose many people have in a retreat or sesshin; the day the motivation of doing it is suddenly gone. Gone completely. The day you see with absolute clarity the insanity of doing sesshin and of practice as a whole and of all human endeavor now that you think about it.

It’s not the end. After a good night of sleep it settles down and it was just day three or four.

Cynicism is just like enthusiasm or like being happy and being depressed. They are on the spectrum.
We all have multiple personality disorder, to some degree.

Nothing blocks practice. Practice includes everything.

I like that. There are days I am a huge cynic, and want to just say "What's the use?" and tell everyone I meet that the world is going to Hell in a handbasket and I can't see anything I can do to fix it so. But, eventually it passes. All that is still true, of course. It's just that it doesn't matter.

RichardH

There are days I am a huge cynic, and want to just say "What's the use?" and tell everyone I meet that the world is going to Hell in a handbasket and I can't see anything I can do to fix it so. But, eventually it passes. All that is still true, of course. It's just that it doesn't matter.

You made a funny

Zero

What do other people think about cynicism?

Beautifully put @richardH...

for my part I try 'everything in moderation'

'Playful magic requiring innocent trust' points to both the results of liberated state and equally to an ignorant state.

Cynicism can block or assist - its the attachment to it or other behaviours that causes off-kilter response...

RichardH

Cynicism is overtly assured and self-serving. Skepticism is merely doubtful. Which is which and how useful it is strikes me as personal.

As regards Buddhist practice, great doubt (a sine qua non) is preceded by small doubt ... sometimes in the form of skepticism or even cynicism.

The only effective clarification of either of these approaches that I can think of relies on determination. If you're feeling skeptical or even cynical, go ahead. Never mind the true believers saying that you must trust this or must trust that. If you doubt, then doubt ... AND keep on practicing.

Just my take.

Upon reflection... gotta go with this.. But if there is a deep pervasive cynicism, the inclination is "why bother"... To "keep on practicing" there needs to be something stronger than the cynicism. Maybe that is where the good company of sangha and a wise spiritual friend comes in?

When I met someone who I recognized as having qualities I aspire to in my heart of hearts, that was the end of cynicism. "A thief only sees a Saint's pockets".. I trot this saying out all the time, but it is such a good one. That is the cynical heart.. quite blinded. We have to be self-reliant of course.. but good friends are essential.

Zero

To "keep on practicing" there needs to be something stronger than the cynicism.

Perhaps by taking all the power away from cynicism or any other trait, they only become observations - then nothing needs to be stronger than them as they have no power - same result as power-struggle and overcoming except the effort is frontloaded generally so day to day conflicts and suffering decreases...

RichardH

To "keep on practicing" there needs to be something stronger than the cynicism.

Perhaps by taking all the power away from cynicism or any other trait, they only become observations - then nothing needs to be stronger than them as they have no power - same result as power-struggle and overcoming except the effort is frontloaded generally so day to day conflicts and suffering decreases...

.... the cynical mind can be deeply habituated... it can be such a nimble and whip-smart way of thinking.. gobbling up everything. But, I guess mental habit hasn't completely covered an open heart, if a person has been drawn to practice Buddhism at all.

AMH

I agree that cynicism is part of the path, as everything else is. And I have had my bouts with it. I find over the years with a few experiences with it that in some ways it has made me more consciously critical of my practice. When I am totally in the cynicism it is just not a great feeling so I am happy when it passes.

What I have learned from cynicism is that it is okay to not know exactly what you are doing and where you think it will go. Cynicism thinks I have to have the answers of where I am going to prove it is worth my time on the cushion.

I have also learned that for every 25 people who express a desire or interest or need for meditation it will be rare to have even one sit on a cushion more than 2 times. So I no longer go out of my way to invite people, but most everyone knows I meditate. Maybe one person will show an interest in the next decade.

The last thing I think I have learned is to avoid people who express deep cynicism as a personality trait. Like to the extent most things you say are argued down with their cynical nature. Everyone has a day like that, as a stable personality trait it is annoying.

genkaku

there needs to be something stronger than the cynicism

@RichardH -- Leaving aside the smoke-blowing for a moment, I think what may prove strong enough even for a cynic is the recognition (whether whispered or screamed) that cynicism, like any other -ism, simply does not and cannot provide an actualized peace ... an honest relaxation. Put another way, cynicism -- like any other -ism -- may be a social persona anyone might want to don, but a social persona cannot still the uncertainty that arises when staring at the bedroom ceiling at 3 a.m.

Kwantum_Kev

Personally, I think some cynicism is unavoidable if one is looking at the world honestly and without blinders on. However, IMHO it is something to eventually be overcome, because it is not possible for me to show true compassion to others if I am distrustful of their motives and even disdainful of them.

Of course that doesn't mean I am never cynical, because sometimes I am. But because I wish to be a source of compassion, hope and love in this world, I try to keep it mostly to myself, and view it as a reminder that I still have things to work on in my mind and heart - that I still have much to learn. If my goal is to one day become enlightened, I don't see that I can hang on to my cynicism and hope to make it.

I guess for me, true compassion and cynicism are somewhat mutually exclusive. Kinda' like saying, "I don't trust your motives, and wonder why I should even bother, but I do hope for the best for you and can feel you suffering"... ?

All in all, very interesting post though, and I am glad you brought it up. Thank you : )

Many Blessings,

KwanKev

Zero

.... the cynical mind can be deeply habituated... it can be such a nimble and whip-smart way of thinking.. gobbling up everything.
But, I guess mental habit hasn't completely covered an open heart, if a person has been drawn to practice Buddhism at all.

isnt it all deeply habituated, nimble whipsmart way of thought endlessly gobbling? not attaching appears to be the key...

I like what you say - that the open heart cannot be covered completely if there is a ray of practice there or even the inclination to practice... keep pulling on that thread bro!! lots of hope there...

RichardH

there needs to be something stronger than the cynicism

@RichardH -- Leaving aside the smoke-blowing for a moment, I think what may prove strong enough even for a cynic is the recognition (whether whispered or screamed) that cynicism, like any other -ism, simply does not and cannot provide an actualized peace ... an honest relaxation. Put another way, cynicism -- like any other -ism -- may be a social persona anyone might want to don, but a social persona cannot still the uncertainty that arises when staring at the bedroom ceiling at 3 a.m.

Honestly, I've known a couple of people who came to that 3 am place ..and ended their own lives because they saw no option. Not "no option" in a spontaneous Dharmic way... just a mundane cynical way. The dry way might work for people who have some experience of practice... and in no need of any ism.. well, anyway.


Where is the smoke blowing?.. just curious.

genkaku

@RichardH -- Suicide is an option. Does it help? I don't know, but I imagine it puts any cynic to shame.

I wasn't trying to say anything other than that there needs to be some determination and that determination can begin growing where the cynic's certainties meet their match ... perhaps on the bedroom ceiling.

Cinorjer

Cynicism and depression aren't the same thing.

And you do have to ask, "Well, cynical about what?" When it comes to politics, every time I've budged from my ultra cynical viewpoint, I've been proven I was right to begin with. In other words, one man's cynicism is another man's informed opinion. I can get pretty cynical about societies in general, but my faith in people has never wavered. I can get pretty cynical about Buddhist organizations, but my faith in the Dharma is stronger than ever.

And I have no idea where I'm going with this. Probably call this just rambling thoughts while I'm killing time at work waiting for 5pm to arrive.

Kwantum_Kev

@Cinorjer - I really like the way you put that, and it closely mirrors what I was trying to say and how I think. And that is a rather scary thought in itself! Ha ha

Many Blessings,

KwanKev

genkaku

Cynicism and depression aren't the same thing.

@Cinorjer -- Interesting observation. Do you think it might be said that cynicism is in fact a form of depression in the sense that a cynical view posits an unrewarded premise?

Not trying to pick a fight. Just thinking aloud.

Cinorjer

Cynicism and depression aren't the same thing.

@Cinorjer -- Interesting observation. Do you think it might be said that cynicism is in fact a form of depression in the sense that a cynical view posits an unrewarded premise?

Not trying to pick a fight. Just thinking aloud.

I suppose one can feed on the other? After all, depression is a lack of hope for a better than expected outcome, while cynicism can be said to be a lack of trust in a better than expected outcome.

genkaku

Trust/hope ... not much difference, do you think? @cinorjer

RichardH

@Cinorjer

And I have no idea where I'm going with this. Probably call this just rambling thoughts while I'm killing time at work waiting for 5pm to arrive.

The internet is a great work avoiding tool... A challenging commission with a deadline needs starting.... and lunch turns into two hours while shale slips off the side of my mind and onto this forum...


I don't understand your view on cynicism ... the world is like this. or that, compared to what exactly? ....the other one that is going well? We pick our spin.

Cynicism is always "realistic".. always.

Cinorjer

Cynicism is realistic, but we have to constantly question if our own biases are influencing our opinions and not ignore the fact that once in a while, the world and people in it are capable of surprising us. Especially on an individual level. I'd say cynicism misapplied is just ignoring reality in favor of our ideas about what reality is. I suppose in the end, I"m just saying cynicism has to contain an attitude of, "Well, show me I'm wrong, then." and be able to admit when that happens.

RichardH

Cynicism is realistic, but we have to constantly question if our own biases are influencing our opinions and not ignore the fact that once in a while, the world and people in it are capable of surprising us. Especially on an individual level. I'd say cynicism misapplied is just ignoring reality in favor of our ideas about what reality is. I suppose in the end, I"m just saying cynicism has to contain an attitude of, "Well, show me I'm wrong, then." and be able to admit when that happens.

I am probably on shaky ground saying what Buddhism is or is not... but on firm ground talking about Art. This is something from my studio journal... it is what I learned from painting. It is applicable, I think.

The idea that Life has an Ultimate Meaning does not hold . This has meaning relative to that, and this has purpose in the context of that, but this and that together have no external reference......no context in which to take measure. Life at once cannot be contained in meaning. This is not the same as saying life is meaningless, because to say "meaningless" is to assign negative meaning. It is more accurate to say that it is inherently free of either meaning, or absence of meaning.

An Ultimate Cosmic Purpose, no matter how gloriously concieved, is a nightmare scenario where everything is bound, subordinated, and ultimately reduced to that purpose alone. It is the absolutizing of relative and contingent purpose, the fraction consuming the whole.

Poetically speaking, all I can see is endless free-play. This free-play has pattern and rhythm that in human experience has a basic feeling tone of ever-rising, or Joy. There is superabundance. As William Blake said "Energy is eternal delight".

There is within given relationships, such as "me and my world", deeply valued meanings, but if these meanings becomes absolutized and fixed, the unconditioned joy giving rise to the whole picture goes into eclipse. The world in eclipse is an endless reaching for lost Joy, one compensation after another.

Chrysalid

The way I see it cynicism is a mental tool, like reason, but it's more reactionary. And, like anything, if taken to excess can be damaging. The issue I see with rejecting our cynical sides in favour of the completely open mind or innocent trust of the OP is that it's like leaving a castle filled with riches unguarded, open for anyone to come in and destroy.

Cynicism is simply the first line of defense, he's the guard on the drawbridge who spies the brightly coloured dancing weirdo off in the distance and rallies the other guards (skepticism, reason, wisdom and understanding) to attention. It could be that the dancing weirdo isn't a weirdo at all, but an enlightened sage, but it's best to search the guy out at the drawbridge rather than letting him into the castle first and risk him destroying all the good things we've collected.

I agree that innocence is a good thing, that we shouldn't let ourselves be defined by bad experiences in the past or negative mindsets, but we should be wary not to let innocence become naïvety because that may leave you vulnerable to fools masquerading as wise men.

person

The way I see it cynicism is a mental tool, like reason, but it's more reactionary. And, like anything, if taken to excess can be damaging. The issue I see with rejecting our cynical sides in favour of the completely open mind or innocent trust of the OP is that it's like leaving a castle filled with riches unguarded, open for anyone to come in and destroy.

Cynicism is simply the first line of defense, he's the guard on the drawbridge who spies the brightly coloured dancing weirdo off in the distance and rallies the other guards (skepticism, reason, wisdom and understanding) to attention. It could be that the dancing weirdo isn't a weirdo at all, but an enlightened sage, but it's best to search the guy out at the drawbridge rather than letting him into the castle first and risk him destroying all the good things we've collected.

I agree that innocence is a good thing, that we shouldn't let ourselves be defined by bad experiences in the past or negative mindsets, but we should be wary not to let innocence become naïvety because that may leave you vulnerable to fools masquerading as wise men.

I like the analogy. The other side of the coin though could be that our castle is empty and wise men carrying riches for us get stopped from entering by cynicism too. So like you said anything taken to excess can be damaging. Let us pray for wisdom.

maarten

I think the antidote to a cynical mind is to adopt a beginners mind, and what helps is that having a beginners mind is much more pleasant (although that pleasure will be looked down upon by the cynical mind of course )

genkaku

Cynicism -- like other -ism's -- posits something else.

Is there really something else?

My answer is not relevant.

But yours is.