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Consciousness and the Why
ThailandTom
Veteran
This could be one of those topics which may be deemed unskillful to contemplate with relation to your daily practice, but it is one that has drifted into my thinking recently.
If you take the literal notion of rebirth as a phenomena that takes place in the universe to be true, then why does our consciousness have to travel between body to body. Well, I have understood that it comes down to certain causes and conditions coming together, like with everything that will make this happen, but I want to try and explore above this idea. In buddhism, does it mention anything about why? When you arrive at a state of consciousness that the Buddha is said to have obtained, will you be able to see all of the workings of the universe as they are? What is above our station if you will?
If you take the literal notion of rebirth as a phenomena that takes place in the universe to be true, then why does our consciousness have to travel between body to body. Well, I have understood that it comes down to certain causes and conditions coming together, like with everything that will make this happen, but I want to try and explore above this idea. In buddhism, does it mention anything about why? When you arrive at a state of consciousness that the Buddha is said to have obtained, will you be able to see all of the workings of the universe as they are? What is above our station if you will?
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It is said that our goal is to wake up. Not just for our selves but for others. Why is that exactly? Why should we wake up for others?
I think these "whys" are related.
We are born full of wonder and curious. Natural born explorers, we take in and put out.
If there is no true seperation, then we are indeed the universe. If we are still in the process of waking up, the universe is in the process of self realisation. This alone puts compassion in the realm of common sense instead of some ideal based on emotion. I don't put on a bandage because I feel sorry for my finger, I do it because it is a part of me in need of healing.
Reincarnation could just be the way of awakening all that is without leaving any aspect of self not only unexplored but unrealised.
The "whys" could all just be made up though. There may not be an actual reason because that could imply intent. Intent begs the question of a first cause.
See, this is why I don't bother having faith in these kinds of beliefs and prefer having faith in what I can percieve happening in the here and now.
To me, it's almost like evolution runs on instinct. Our triune brain system is like a fancy new car for consciousness.
Just my two cents...
What sparked this current thought however was contemplating EVERYTHING, those big old questions that as humans we tend to ask ourselves. Why are we here, what is out there etc. In other religions these are often given to you as answers, I guess in Buddhism you are given the tools to go find out for yourself.
"We are a way for the Cosmos to know itself"
--Carl Sagan
It is devoid of what made the body: speak, think, feel, etc...what do you call that which is no longer animating the corpse?
Obviously it is no longer there (the part that makes me, me...and you, you) after death.
What do you call that is Buddhism? What do you call this phenomenon of the thing that is no longer part of the body after death?
This is what I call the soul.
Lol...I envy your paradise, go to h-e- double hockey sticks!
So long happy thread, we hijacked it!
Tom, you really don't know why we're here? We're here a) to move toward Awakening, to evolve, and b) to help each other. Why does rebirth happen? To give us more opp'ty to evolve, because one lifetime isn't enough for most people. Yes, you can see the workings of the universe when you Awaken (the Buddha did, right?), or when your Kundalini stirs up. The bigger question, I think, is, "Why is the Universe conscious"? Ponder that awhile.
There is no transmigration of consciousness or soul as consciousness only arises dependent on causes and conditions, ceasing when the conditions have disappeared.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.038.than.html
Earth, air, fire, water, space and consciousness.
A soul is a thing, a permanent container for our thoughts, feelings, experiences. Thoughts, feelings, experiences change within the soul but the soul itself does not. This is called mind or citta, it may be the same as consciousness I'm not exactly sure. Consciousness doesn't exist on its own, it only arises in dependence upon a sense or mental object.
If the universe was devoid of everything the soul could still be said to exist, consciousness wouldn't as there is nothing for it to perceive.
I need to read the Tibetan Book of Living and Dying again, but I think the explanation is that our gross and subtle consciousness disolve into the very subtle consciousness or clear light mind and then that enters into a subtle bardo body which we move from life to life in.
Each arising requires all conditions (infinite conditions).
Each sense is distinct and independent yet interdependent.
For instance sound (consciousness) is dependent upon the conditions of ear sense organ, sound object and contact. Because it is dependent on conditions it is empty of inherent existence.
Yet when conditions are right sound appears.
But thats a simplified deconstruction of sound. YoU actually need the whole universe of conditions for the sound to appear. For instance of a bell being hit to make noise. You need the bell which requires all the history of the designers of bells. The metal, etc and etc.
So each arising of sound is completely new and fresh and is completely distinct from any other sound. Yet it is connected via cause and conditions to everything.
Sound is ungraspable because of dependent origination. It appears from no where, stays no where and disappears to no where. Like a dream, vividly happening by itself yethaving no enduring essence.
Now this is just sound consciousness.
Hope this helps.
Listen to sound. There is only sound, no hearer.
We usually think there is a hearer hearing the sound.
But in actuality there is te arising of sound. And the hearer is merely a thought which references back to a subject.
But directly hear a sound. Just this vivid arising. No hearer. Hearing (process of dependent origination) = sound (consciousness). No duality.
Thinking. Just thoughts. No thinker.
Smelling. Just smell. No smeller.
Tasting. Just taste. No taster.
Feeling. Just sensation. No feeler.
Seeing. Just color, forms, shapes. No seer.
Directly see for yourself.
The great illusion is the watcher or observer.
The arising of color is made upon contact then there is projection of the symbol "pen".
The arising of sensation is made upon contact then there is projection of the symbol pen.
The pen is an arising of awareness.
The watcher is a reference point placed on the non conceptual space between thoughts.
There is only the seen, no seer. Everything else after this bare, direct experience is just conceptual assumptions.
So when we practice mindfulness, who or what is being mindful?
It is of pure presence awareness. This can be objectified into the watcher. But it is only the sixth consciousness or mind consciousness. This too is empty of inherent existence and we cannot call self.
This is worth a read:
http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2008/01/ajahn-amaro-on-non-duality-and.html
http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2008/10/right-views-and-spiritual-practices.html
At first the practice of mindfulness may seem to give a distinction between that which is looking and that which is looked at (subject/object).
But with practice and break through into anatta (bahiya sutta) one can see that mindfulness is always taught in specific places (four foundations of mindfulness). There is only the heard or cognized. This is non dual appearances of awareness.
Sunshine and Green Leaves
"When we say I know the wind is blowing, we don't think that there is something blowing something else. "Wind' goes with 'blowing'. If there is no blowing, there is no wind. It is the same with knowing. Mind is the knower; the knower is mind. We are talking about knowing in relation to the wind. 'To know' is to know something. Knowing is inseparable from the wind. Wind and knowing are one. We can say, 'Wind,' and that is enough. The presence of wind indicates the presence of knowing, and the presence of the action of blowing'."
"..The most universal verb is the verb 'to be'': I am, you are, the mountain is, a river is. The verb 'to be' does not express the dynamic living state of the universe. To express that we must say 'become.' These two verbs can also be used as nouns: 'being", "becoming". But being what? Becoming what? 'Becoming' means 'evolving ceaselessly', and is as universal as the verb "to be." It is not possible to express the "being" of a phenomenon and its "becoming" as if the two were independent. In the case of wind, blowing is the being and the becoming...."
"In any phenomena, whether psychological, physiological, or physical, there is dynamic movement, life. We can say that this movement, this life, is the universal manifestation, the most commonly recognized action of knowing. We must not regard 'knowing' as something from the outside which comes to breathe life into the universe. It is the life of the universe itself. The dance and the dancer are one."
Is there in you an entity which you call the 'I' or the 'mind' or the 'self'? Is there a co- ordinator who is co-ordinating what you are looking at with what you are listening to, what you are smelling with what you are tasting, and so on? Or is there anything which links together the various sensations originating from a single sense -- the flow of impulses from the eyes, for example? Actually, there is always a gap between any two sensations. The co-ordinator bridges that gap: he establishes himself as an illusion of continuity.
In the natural state there is no entity who is co-ordinating the messages from the different senses. Each sense is functioning independently in its own way. When there is a demand from outside which makes it necessary to co-ordinate one or two or all of the senses and come up with a response, still there is no co-ordinator, but there is a temporary state of co- ordination. There is no continuity; when the demand has been met, again there is only the unco-ordinated, disconnected, disjointed functioning of the senses. This is always the case. Once the continuity is blown apart -- not that it was ever there; but the illusory continuity -- it's finished once and for all.
..............
Your movement of thought interferes with the process of touch, just as it does with the other senses. Anything you touch is always translated as 'hard', 'soft', 'warm', 'cold', 'wet', 'dry', and so on.
You do not realize it, but it is your thinking that creates your own body. Without this thought process there is no body consciousness -- which is to say there is no body at all. My body exists for other people; it does not exist for me; there are only isolated points of contact, impulses of touch which are not tied together by thought. So the body is not different from the objects around it; it is a set of sensations like any others. Your body does not belong to you.
Perhaps I can give you the 'feel' of this. I sleep four hours at night, no matter what time I go to bed. Then I lie in bed until morning fully awake. I don't know what is lying there in the bed; I don't know whether I'm lying on my left side or my right side -- for hours and hours I lie like this. If there is any noise outside -- a bird or something -- it just echoes in me. I listen to the "flub-dub-flub-dub" of my heart and don't know what it is. There is no body between the two sheets -- the form of the body is not there. If the question is asked, "What is in there?" there is only an awareness of the points of contact, where the body is in contact with the bed and the sheets, and where it is in contact with itself, at the crossing of the legs, for example. There are only the sensations of touch from these points of contact, and the rest of the body is not there. There is some kind of heaviness, probably the gravitational pull, something very vague. There is nothing inside which links up these things. Even if the eyes are open and looking at the whole body, there are still only the points of contact, and they have no connection with what I am looking at. If I want to try to link up these points of contact into the shape of my own body, probably I will succeed, but by the time it is completed the body is back in the same situation of different points of contact. The linkage cannot stay. It is the same sort of thing when I'm sitting or standing. There is no body.
Can you tell me how mango juice tastes? I can't. You also cannot; but you try to relive the memory of mango juice now -- you create for yourself some kind of an experience of how it tastes -- which I cannot do. I must have mango juice on my tongue -- seeing or smelling it is not enough -- in order to be able to bring that past knowledge into operation and to say "Yes, this is what mango juice tastes like." This does not mean that personal preferences and 'tastes' change. In a market my hand automatically reaches out for the same items that I have liked all my life. But because I cannot conjure up a mental experience, there can be no craving for foods which are not there.
Smell plays a greater part in your daily life than does taste. The olfactory organs are constantly open to odors. But if you do not interfere with the sense of smell, what is there is only an irritation in the nose. It makes no difference whether you are smelling cow dung or an expensive French perfume -- you rub the nose and move on.
..............
You have a feeling that there is a 'cameraman' who is directing the eyes. But left to themselves -- when there is no 'cameraman' -- the eyes do not linger, but are moving all the time. They are drawn by the things outside. Movement attracts them, or brightness or a color which stands out from whatever is around it. There is no 'I' looking; mountains, flowers, trees, cows, all look at me. The consciousness is like a mirror, reflecting whatever is there outside. The depth, the distance, the color, everything is there, but there is nobody who is translating these things. Unless there is a demand for knowledge about what I am looking at, there is no separation, no distance from what is there. It may not actually be possible to count the hairs on the head of someone sitting across the room, but there is a kind of clarity which seems as if I could.
http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2008/10/right-views-and-spiritual-practices.html
So dive into your experience.
All this is pointing to the immediate experience. It isn't some kind of special experience but it is just deconstruction just this experience as it is.
We always get caught up in ideas, stories, our beliefs. We also focus on content, yet we overlook the most basics.
Buddhism is just looking at the most basic stuff. basic assumptions. basic experience.
There is something well written related to this topic:
http://www.nichirenscoffeehouse.net/dharmajim/DharmaView.html
...Apophaticism rests on the idea that ultimate nature is somewhere else, than the realm in which we live. Utterly removed from, and different from, the realm of experience, ultimacy can then only be accessed through a step by step process which disengages me from this realm in which I dwell. In other words, apophaticism and mysticism are dualistic, creating a division in existence, minimally between the conceptual and ultimacy, and in extreme cases between ultimacy and everything which I experience.
My understanding of the Dharma does not regard the realm in which I dwell as removed from the ultimate nature of Interdependent Transformation. Ultimacy does not exist somewhere else. It is not a matter of contacting some other domain in order to access ultimacy. Rather it is a matter of shifting our attention so that I can perceive and comprehend the actuality of things. From this perspective, my understanding of existence is misconstrued and my perception of things is askew. The purpose of Dharma study and practice is to correct these misunderstandings, both conceptually and perceptually, to overcome ignorance and the habits that give rise to this ignorance. When that is done, the ultimate nature of all existing things and existence itself, stands forth as the Interdependent Transformation nature which permeates all of existence, unlocated, ever present, never far.
I realize that this way of comprehending the Dharma sets me at odds with those traditions which regard the ultimate nature of existence, Buddha Nature, Nirvana, as something which can not be accessed through study and thinking. I can only say that at one time I agreed with this view, but that my undersanding has now moved to a view which encompasses thought, conceptuality, study, and thinking within the domain of ultimacy without ejecting anything else from that domain. To set thought aside, from the perspective of Interdependent Transformation, makes no more sense than asking someone to set aside hearing, or to set aside seeing. Just as all visual phenomena have the nature of Interdependent Transformation, just as all sonic phenomena have the nature of Interdependent Transformation, so also all thoughts, all concepts, also have the nature of Interdependent Transformation. For this reason rejecting thoughts and concepts means limiting the extent of the play of ultimate nature. But Buddha Nautre as Interdependent Transformation marks all existing things. Marking all existing things, this nature marks all thoughts. Marking all thoughts and concepts, thoughts and concepts, when comprehended in their totality, and as Interdependent Transformations, graciously display the true nature of all existing things. Words also have a luminously clear nature. Thoughts also sparkle with elemental transformative energy. Concepts also shimmer with the ever flowing and present energy of all things. Rejecting nothing, the words of the Dharma compassionately guide me to ultimate realization...
http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2008/10/right-views-and-spiritual-practices.html