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We wonder why our healthcare system is screwed up?
@mountains I don’t really understand the problem. Insurance companies should have an interest in not paying ridiculous bills. If you can make the call (and get the discount) why can’t they?
What is wrong with national health care free? I mean the NHS in the UK runs fine, stories of waiting 4 hours to see a broken leg etc are rare and you have an option to go to a private hospital and pay if you like. I don't know most Aericans defend this point so much.
Doctors, despite some of their belief that they are God, are in fact human beings. They are *not* perfect.
Someone pointed out to me once that when dealing with doctors, it's best to take into consideration the type of person that ends up in such a field. You have to have a hell of a lot of belief in yourself to want to put other people's lives in your hands, sometimes maybe too much belief... This doesn't help my hypochondria though.
@mountains I don’t really understand the problem. Insurance companies should have an interest in not paying ridiculous bills. If you can make the call (and get the discount) why can’t they?
Actually they do. When I get the statements from Blue Cross/Blue Shield, it always lists the charge, and then what the insurance company was willing to pay, and almost always the doctor agrees to accept that lower rate as payment in full.
What is wrong with national health care free? I mean the NHS in the UK runs fine, stories of waiting 4 hours to see a broken leg etc are rare and you have an option to go to a private hospital and pay if you like. I don't know most Aericans defend this point so much.
I think it is rather mindless and goes back to the old "better dead than red" concept, because just the word "socialism" seems to scare people...even though few can explain why.
@telly03 i just think your whole system is screwed because health care is primarily a money making venture which leaves the door wide open for less then optimal patient outcomes
i just outlined a plan that works.....i bet alot of americans would jump a mile if someone proposed raising their taxes by 1.5% though
What is wrong with national health care free? I mean the NHS in the UK runs fine, stories of waiting 4 hours to see a broken leg etc are rare and you have an option to go to a private hospital and pay if you like. I don't know most Aericans defend this point so much.
I think it is rather mindless and goes back to the old "better dead than red" concept, because just the word "socialism" seems to scare people...even though few can explain why.
Sorry exscuse my ignorance, I do not understand this post, can you elbaorate. I am not sure which side of the argument you are relating it to.
What is wrong with national health care free? I mean the NHS in the UK runs fine, stories of waiting 4 hours to see a broken leg etc are rare and you have an option to go to a private hospital and pay if you like. I don't know most Aericans defend this point so much.
I think it is rather mindless and goes back to the old "better dead than red" concept, because just the word "socialism" seems to scare people...even though few can explain why.
I think the idea of Socialism sours when it comes down to the loss of drive to succeed when your working to support other people not willing to pull their share, and then what do you do when you run out of other people's money, and it's not working so well in Europe... I'm not arguing one way or another, could care less, these are just the arguments against Socialism that I hear.
What is wrong with national health care free? I mean the NHS in the UK runs fine, stories of waiting 4 hours to see a broken leg etc are rare and you have an option to go to a private hospital and pay if you like. I don't know most Aericans defend this point so much.
I think it is rather mindless and goes back to the old "better dead than red" concept, because just the word "socialism" seems to scare people...even though few can explain why.
I think the idea of Socialism sours when it comes down to the loss of drive to succeed when your working to support other people not willing to pull their share, and then what do you do when you run out of other people's money, and it's not working so well in Europe... I'm not arguing one way or another, could care less, these are just the arguments against Socialism that I hear.
France just elected a Socialist president... I guess we'll see where it goes.
Also, Cuba (not European, but bear with me) has the best education/literacy and health care in Latin America, and ranks only slightly below the US. And this is all under a trade embargo.
Not trying to argue against you - as you clearly stated you're not arguing - but just sayin'.
What's the healthcare situation like in "Buddhist" nation-states like Sri Lanka or Thailand?
Thailand well it depends how much money you have. In my town there are 3 hospitals. One that is always really over crowded and if you want to see the doctor there turn up early, around 8am and expect to wait for about 2-3 hours.
The other more expensive hospitals are cleaner, the general care of the staff is greater and as you would obviously expect it is just better due to it being more expensive.
I loved having my British passport, I can get any type of medical care for free. If I go to the docs here and find I have say cancer, zip back home and get everything done for free.
What is wrong with national health care free? I mean the NHS in the UK runs fine, stories of waiting 4 hours to see a broken leg etc are rare and you have an option to go to a private hospital and pay if you like. I don't know most Aericans defend this point so much.
I think it is rather mindless and goes back to the old "better dead than red" concept, because just the word "socialism" seems to scare people...even though few can explain why.
Sorry exscuse my ignorance, I do not understand this post, can you elbaorate. I am not sure which side of the argument you are relating it to.
LOL, thank you for asking politely!
Although I stated so in previous posts, I'm in favor of Obamacare (not that I think it's a perfect plan, but it's a huge step in the right direction in fixing one of the biggest social policy problems that has ever existed in this country). And, I have no problem with socialized medicine, providing it's done well.
I was simply addressing the bigger question of why so many Americans dislike "socialized medicine". After all, historically, Americans didn't dislike socialized security. But that came along at the right time for people to accept it (and similar Depression Era programs).
But then along came WWII and a propaganda machine revved up concern about the way things were done in the USSR. This ballooned during the Cold War when Americans were taught that anything socialist was bad. There was the red scare, which to some extent I can remember, at least in its later years. Anything socialized was bad/evil. The red scare in Hollywood is quite famous. The red scare within Congress (which in the last few weeks has been renewed by Congressman Alan West). The red scare about anything that is done like it was done in Russia -- and that includes socialized medicine. And I have actually heard a couple of people resurrect an old red scare term when someone advocated socialized medicine -- pinko.
I know several people very opposed to Obamacare (and any similar program) who will start talking about not wanting to move toward socialized medicine, but when you begin to ask them anything detailed about why they fear it, they can't quite explain it. And I think it goes back to the everything that a socialized government does is bad fear. It's the same fear that we see about Cuba today, to which there is no other logic.
Yeah, I mean money-wise. I can imagine people with chronic illnesses are basically walking dollar signs to the healthcare industry over there.
Not really. The few types of chronic illnesses the system is set up to handle get dealt with adequately. Everyone else gets sloughed off, they get told there's nothing wrong with them, or more honest doctors say "we don't know how to fix that", or "we don't do that kind of work", even though it pertains to their specialty. People with chronic illnesses end up dropping out of the medical system and searching the alternative-care system for solutions they rarely find. They become disabled and go on public assistance. The tragic thing is, many of these cases are really pretty easy to diagnose and treat, but the med system has huge holes in it. Only if you pay out-of-pocket for an off-insurance doc, or find the right alternative medicine specialist, or are lucky enough to find a European doctor, do you get the treatment you need.
What's the healthcare situation like in "Buddhist" nation-states like Sri Lanka or Thailand?
Thailand is kind of a mixed bag. While living there, I could afford to go to Bumrungrad Hospital, which is well respected throughout the world, and in my view gives the very best in health care with the most modern equipment and highly qualified doctors, many of whom studied and worked in the west for some period.
Thailand does have its own version of socialized medicine. The only case I know personally is a little clouded because it is my ex, a Thai who has a mid-level government position in the Education Ministry. He has a serious heart condition for which he already had open heart surgery once, and probably will again within the next couple of years. And he developed aplastic anemia to the point of near death, and has had to have bone marrow transplant, chemo, and radiation. And he has hepatitis. All of these conditions are long-term, and he receives basically free medical care through the government, with the exception of some western medications. He's functioning and at age 52 still working. Plays racquetball weekly. So doing as well as can be expected, although often ends up in the hospital for a few days when his blood tests are not good. But, I went with him to the hospital once -- jeesh...we'd hate it. Even though he may have an appointment for 10 a.m., you go into the huge and full waiting room, and may wait 4 hours to see your doctor. And then may be told to come back the next day.
But, a huge issue that it's only a handful of Thai hospitals in Bangkok (a city of over 6 million) that has really good care, and no matter where one lives in the country, if it's any medical problem that is serious, you probably have to go to Thailand. Other cities have small hospitals, but they cannot handle the most serious diseases/conditions.
Most people here in the UK are very proud of our 'socialised' medicine (although there are the usual amount of rednecks shouting about immigrants coming in and using our system), and this support is despite us having the same negative bombardment against socialist thinking, just as you in the US have suffered for so long.
When we introduced the system in the late 1940s, there was a noisy campaign by general practitioners who said they would leave the country rather than be subject to a socialised medical system; in the event, of course, only about 5% left, mainly for our old 'white' colonies (Canada, Australia, and southern Africa).
Someone in the US has got to bite the bullet and Just Do It, but I fear that you don't have a Nelson Mandela (nor, more's the pity, do we).
Yeah, I mean money-wise. I can imagine people with chronic illnesses are basically walking dollar signs to the healthcare industry over there.
Not really. The few types of chronic illnesses the system is set up to handle get dealt with adequately. Everyone else gets sloughed off, they get told there's nothing wrong with them, or more honest doctors say "we don't know how to fix that", or "we don't do that kind of work", even though it pertains to their specialty. People with chronic illnesses end up dropping out of the medical system and searching the alternative-care system for solutions they rarely find. They become disabled and go on public assistance. The tragic thing is, many of these cases are really pretty easy to diagnose and treat, but the med system has huge holes in it. Only if you pay out-of-pocket for an off-insurance doc, or find the right alternative medicine specialist, or are lucky enough to find a European doctor, do you get the treatment you need.
... that sounds even worse than being a walking dollar sign...
In order to stay away from the Medicare Gap limit I purchase some of my meds over the internet. One particular generic drug costs me $ 14.19 for a 30 day supply. If I got that drug from the local pharmacy my health insurance carrier would be billed $ 115.00 and I would pay an $ 8.00 copay.
In fact, the generic drug I get over the internet and the drug they sell at the pharmacy are identical; same pill, same manufacturer and same type of ID number stamped on the back. I would bet that they purchase that 30 day supply from the manufacturer for about $ 5.00 !!! If you wonder who is a fault for the high costs of meds I would put the blame on the Pharmacies. Gregg
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personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
In order to stay away from the Medicare Gap limit I purchase some of my meds over the internet. One particular generic drug costs me $ 14.19 for a 30 day supply. If I got that drug from the local pharmacy my health insurance carrier would be billed $ 115.00 and I would pay an $ 8.00 copay.
In fact, the generic drug I get over the internet and the drug they sell at the pharmacy are identical; same pill, same manufacturer and same type of ID number stamped on the back. I would bet that they purchase that 30 day supply from the manufacturer for about $ 5.00 !!! If you wonder who is a fault for the high costs of meds I would put the blame on the Pharmacies. Gregg
I like this story. There's one I heard of where someone was taking a generic medication for acne. He had to take it twice a day, but there is a brand name drug that is essentially the same except you only need to take it once a day. The generic was cheap, something like $10-$20 a prescription. The brand name was somewhere in the few hundreds of dollars. He didn't have to pay any of the cost, it was all covered by his insurance, so for him it made sense to get the one that he only had to take once a day.
To control their costs the insurance company put a $30 or $40 deductible on the brand name drug so that the patient would see some of the cost. The pharmaceutical companies then started giving out vouchers that would cover the cost of the deductible so that people would be more likely to get the drug that cost hundreds of dollars.
^^ This is very similar to what I found about a drug I have long taken for intestinal problems. In American the drug was 5 times as expensive as in Thailand for the same drug, the same company (Searle), the exact same pill.
All I have to say is... I don't ever want to get injured in your country!!
The US has some of the best emergency and critical care in the world. Where it really seriously falls short is in treating chronic illness. The US is the place to be if you incur a serious injury. But you need insurance. There's travelers' insurance for that.
Gawd, the US health system sounds AWFUL!
Actually a friend at the monastery felt crook during a sesshin, they shepherded her off to the monastery for a checkup. A few weeks she gets the $2K bill I think. She had to work it out with her insurance but I am not sure she got covered for it all.
for such a wealthy country (GDP wise anyway) its unfortunate there is so much social inequality .....people screaming "socialism" and rabble rousing to deny the poorest of the poor access to health care is unconscionable
I, as a nurse, work for a corporation. Hospitals are corporations. The bottom line is what matters. Everything is counted and charged for, and I mean everything. The idea of altuism among doctors is not something I have seen. Most I have seen are puffed up with themselves and their lifestyles. It's an unprincipled and broken system. After being an ER for the last 14 years, I don't ever want to get sick. Currently I am looking into Nurse Practitioner programs, maybe I can make some difference or at least have some say in how patients and staff are treated.
Thanks for this insight, Theswingisyellow. I often think the people in the know are the best ones to provide commentary
@enko I don't know anyone who is against universal health care, and I don't know anyone in the US who believes our current system is good... If the left or right can come up with a universal plan, along with a supporting budget that does not continue adding to our debt, then they would get my vote, but in order to do that I think the unregulated fraud, such as the OP was pointing out, would also have to be addressed.
Sorry to be offensive, but the quality of the politics in the US looks awfully weird from what I have seen on TV over the last months.
Weird rich pandering politicians focussed on USA! USA! USA! We are the centre of the world! We are the best! We will protect! And did I mention pandering to the populace with easy dumb messages? (which is what probably works best, I agree with that) And meanwhile your health system is in shambles and politics seems unable to move forward because of partisan bickering and immature politicians acting like schoolyard boys.
I know several people very opposed to Obamacare (and any similar program) who will start talking about not wanting to move toward socialized medicine, but when you begin to ask them anything detailed about why they fear it, they can't quite explain it. And I think it goes back to the everything that a socialized government does is bad fear. It's the same fear that we see about Cuba today, to which there is no other logic.
People with chronic illnesses end up dropping out of the medical system and searching the alternative-care system for solutions they rarely find. They become disabled and go on public assistance. The tragic thing is, many of these cases are really pretty easy to diagnose and treat, but the med system has huge holes in it. Only if you pay out-of-pocket for an off-insurance doc, or find the right alternative medicine specialist, or are lucky enough to find a European doctor, do you get the treatment you need.
@enko I don't know anyone who is against universal health care, and I don't know anyone in the US who believes our current system is good... If the left or right can come up with a universal plan, along with a supporting budget that does not continue adding to our debt, then they would get my vote, but in order to do that I think the unregulated fraud, such as the OP was pointing out, would also have to be addressed.
Sorry to be offensive, but the quality of the politics in the US looks awfully weird from what I have seen on TV over the last months.
Weird rich pandering politicians focussed on USA! USA! USA! We are the centre of the world! We are the best! We will protect! And did I mention pandering to the populace with easy dumb messages? (which is what probably works best, I agree with that) And meanwhile your health system is in shambles and politics seems unable to move forward because of partisan bickering and immature politicians acting like schoolyard boys.
OK I'll shut up now.
And the childish mudslinging... It can be embarrassing
My perception is America is a very work focussed culture
Yes, I think that's very true. Much too much so. I was surprised at recent surveys, for example, that show that a majority of American workers don't take their full number of vacation days.
I, as a nurse, work for a corporation. Hospitals are corporations. The bottom line is what matters. Everything is counted and charged for, and I mean everything. The idea of altuism among doctors is not something I have seen.
Hospitals only started charging for every little thing after deregulation of the hospital system. Before deregulation, minor items like band-aids and tongue depressors were free. Back then there did seem to be more altruism among the doctors. Back then, there was cooperation among hospitals; each hospital had their own specialty, and had all the equipment necessary for diagnosing and treating problems in that specialty. (Cardio, brain, etc.) After deregulation, suddenly hospitals started to compete with each other, and each one had to have ALL the equipment for all the specialties. This, needless to say, contributed enormously to the cost of medical care in the US. At that point, hospitals developed charity projects for fund-raising to help support the cost of acquiring all that equipment. Before deregulation, I think many hospitals were non-profits, I'm not sure about that.
^^ This is very similar to what I found about a drug I have long taken for intestinal problems. In American the drug was 5 times as expensive as in Thailand for the same drug, the same company (Searle), the exact same pill.
This reminds me of a huge international flap that resulted some years ago when India proposed producing AIDS meds cheaply and selling them to the developing world at prices Africa, etc. could afford. The US Pharma industry pitched a huge fit. I think that forced some change in how they do business internationally, though. They saw the writing on the wall. Hooray for India!
And think about it: even if India made no profit on those sales, the initiative would be a MASSIVE job-creation engine! Sounds very much like a win-win to me.
^^ This is very similar to what I found about a drug I have long taken for intestinal problems. In American the drug was 5 times as expensive as in Thailand for the same drug, the same company (Searle), the exact same pill.
This reminds me of a huge international flap that resulted some years ago when India proposed producing AIDS meds cheaply and selling them to the developing world at prices Africa, etc. could afford. The US Pharma industry pitched a huge fit. I think that forced some change in how they do business internationally, though. They saw the writing on the wall. Hooray for India!
And think about it: even if India made no profit on those sales, the initiative would be a MASSIVE job-creation engine! Sounds very much like a win-win to me.
My significant other in Thailand, who has aplastic anemia, is forced to take a drug from India which is different than the drug of choice from the U.S. because the Indian drugs is so much cheaper. It is not the same drug, but it does the same thing...though somewhat less effectively. The reason he has to settle for the less effective Indian version is that he is a government employee, and the government won't pay for the more expensive drug.
This is very similar to an attitude you see in Thai pharmacies. For most drugs, you don't need a doctor's prescription in Thailand. You just go in and tell the pharmacist what you want, and it's sold over the counter. I have long taken lomotil for my intestinal problem, though recently that drug has gotten harder to find in Thailand. The pharmacists would often say, "Here is Imodium. Same thing." Well, it's not the same thing. It's for similar conditions, but has a different chemical makeup. It works well for some people, not well for others. You have to be very careful over there and have done your homework.
Comments
I don’t really understand the problem.
Insurance companies should have an interest in not paying ridiculous bills.
If you can make the call (and get the discount) why can’t they?
@telly03 i just think your whole system is screwed because health care is primarily a money making venture which leaves the door wide open for less then optimal patient outcomes
i just outlined a plan that works.....i bet alot of americans would jump a mile if someone proposed raising their taxes by 1.5% though
Also, Cuba (not European, but bear with me) has the best education/literacy and health care in Latin America, and ranks only slightly below the US. And this is all under a trade embargo.
Not trying to argue against you - as you clearly stated you're not arguing - but just sayin'.
What's the healthcare situation like in "Buddhist" nation-states like Sri Lanka or Thailand?
The other more expensive hospitals are cleaner, the general care of the staff is greater and as you would obviously expect it is just better due to it being more expensive.
I loved having my British passport, I can get any type of medical care for free. If I go to the docs here and find I have say cancer, zip back home and get everything done for free.
Although I stated so in previous posts, I'm in favor of Obamacare (not that I think it's a perfect plan, but it's a huge step in the right direction in fixing one of the biggest social policy problems that has ever existed in this country). And, I have no problem with socialized medicine, providing it's done well.
I was simply addressing the bigger question of why so many Americans dislike "socialized medicine". After all, historically, Americans didn't dislike socialized security. But that came along at the right time for people to accept it (and similar Depression Era programs).
But then along came WWII and a propaganda machine revved up concern about the way things were done in the USSR. This ballooned during the Cold War when Americans were taught that anything socialist was bad. There was the red scare, which to some extent I can remember, at least in its later years. Anything socialized was bad/evil. The red scare in Hollywood is quite famous. The red scare within Congress (which in the last few weeks has been renewed by Congressman Alan West). The red scare about anything that is done like it was done in Russia -- and that includes socialized medicine. And I have actually heard a couple of people resurrect an old red scare term when someone advocated socialized medicine -- pinko.
I know several people very opposed to Obamacare (and any similar program) who will start talking about not wanting to move toward socialized medicine, but when you begin to ask them anything detailed about why they fear it, they can't quite explain it. And I think it goes back to the everything that a socialized government does is bad fear. It's the same fear that we see about Cuba today, to which there is no other logic.
Thailand does have its own version of socialized medicine. The only case I know personally is a little clouded because it is my ex, a Thai who has a mid-level government position in the Education Ministry. He has a serious heart condition for which he already had open heart surgery once, and probably will again within the next couple of years. And he developed aplastic anemia to the point of near death, and has had to have bone marrow transplant, chemo, and radiation. And he has hepatitis. All of these conditions are long-term, and he receives basically free medical care through the government, with the exception of some western medications. He's functioning and at age 52 still working. Plays racquetball weekly. So doing as well as can be expected, although often ends up in the hospital for a few days when his blood tests are not good. But, I went with him to the hospital once -- jeesh...we'd hate it. Even though he may have an appointment for 10 a.m., you go into the huge and full waiting room, and may wait 4 hours to see your doctor. And then may be told to come back the next day.
But, a huge issue that it's only a handful of Thai hospitals in Bangkok (a city of over 6 million) that has really good care, and no matter where one lives in the country, if it's any medical problem that is serious, you probably have to go to Thailand. Other cities have small hospitals, but they cannot handle the most serious diseases/conditions.
When we introduced the system in the late 1940s, there was a noisy campaign by general practitioners who said they would leave the country rather than be subject to a socialised medical system; in the event, of course, only about 5% left, mainly for our old 'white' colonies (Canada, Australia, and southern Africa).
Someone in the US has got to bite the bullet and Just Do It, but I fear that you don't have a Nelson Mandela (nor, more's the pity, do we).
With metta,
Allen, London.
In fact, the generic drug I get over the internet and the drug they sell at the pharmacy are identical; same pill, same manufacturer and same type of ID number stamped on the back. I would bet that they purchase that 30 day supply from the manufacturer for about $ 5.00 !!! If you wonder who is a fault for the high costs of meds I would put the blame on the Pharmacies.
Gregg
To control their costs the insurance company put a $30 or $40 deductible on the brand name drug so that the patient would see some of the cost. The pharmaceutical companies then started giving out vouchers that would cover the cost of the deductible so that people would be more likely to get the drug that cost hundreds of dollars.
Actually a friend at the monastery felt crook during a sesshin, they shepherded her off to the monastery for a checkup. A few weeks she gets the $2K bill I think. She had to work it out with her insurance but I am not sure she got covered for it all.
WTF with the American health system ?
Sorry to hear also
_/\_
My perception is America is a very work focussed culture
Weird rich pandering politicians focussed on USA! USA! USA! We are the centre of the world! We are the best! We will protect! And did I mention pandering to the populace with easy dumb messages? (which is what probably works best, I agree with that)
And meanwhile your health system is in shambles and politics seems unable to move forward because of partisan bickering and immature politicians acting like schoolyard boys.
OK I'll shut up now.
And think about it: even if India made no profit on those sales, the initiative would be a MASSIVE job-creation engine! Sounds very much like a win-win to me.
This is very similar to an attitude you see in Thai pharmacies. For most drugs, you don't need a doctor's prescription in Thailand. You just go in and tell the pharmacist what you want, and it's sold over the counter. I have long taken lomotil for my intestinal problem, though recently that drug has gotten harder to find in Thailand. The pharmacists would often say, "Here is Imodium. Same thing." Well, it's not the same thing. It's for similar conditions, but has a different chemical makeup. It works well for some people, not well for others. You have to be very careful over there and have done your homework.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/47182654#47182654