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Sutra Studies: Heart Sutra

Floating_AbuFloating_Abu Veteran
edited May 2012 in Buddhism Today
image

The Heart Sutra



Avalokitesvara Bodhisattva,

when deeply practicing prajna-paramita,

clearly saw that the five skandhas are all empty,

and was saved from all suffering and distress.



Sariputra,

form is no different to emptiness,

emptiness no different to form.



That which is form is emptiness,

that which is emptiness, form.



Sensations, perceptions, impressions, and consciousness

are also like this.



Sariputra,

all things and phenomena are marked by emptiness;

they are neither appearing nor disappearing,

neither impure nor pure,

neither increasing nor decreasing.



Therefore, in emptiness,

no forms, no sensations, perceptions, impressions, or consciousness;

no eyes, ears, nose, tongue, body, mind;



no sights, sounds, odors, tastes, objects of touch, objects of mind;

no realm of sight up to no realm of consciousness;



no ignorance and no end of ignorance,

up to no aging and death,

and no end of aging and death;



no suffering, accumulation, cessation, or path;

no wisdom and no attainment.



With nothing to attain,

bodhisattvas

rely on prajna-paramita,

and their minds are without hindrance.



They are without hindrance,

and thus without fear.



Far apart from all confused dreams,

they dwell in nirvana.



All buddhas of the past, present and future

rely on prajna-paramita,

and attain anuttara-samyak-sambodhi.



Therefore, know that prajna-paramita

is the great transcendent mantra,

the great bright mantra,

the supreme mantra,

the unequalled balanced mantra,

that can eliminate all suffering,

and is real, not false.



So proclaim the prajna-paramita mantra,

proclaim the mantra that says:



gate, gate,

paragate,

parasamgate,

bodhi, svaha!



The Heart Sutra of Prajna.
«13

Comments

  • zenffzenff Veteran
    "Nothing to attain" it says.
    Isn't that shocking?

  • With nothing to attain,

    bodhisattvas

    rely on prajna-paramita,

    and their minds are without hindrance.
    Namo Avalokitesvara Bodhisattva!

    Nothing to attain, therefore endless to attain. Prajna-paramita, or wisdom perfection, is not hindered by specific goal but limitless.

    ps: just a feeble attempt, so please refer to your teacher's Heart Sutra teaching if available!
  • All buddhas of the past, present and future

    rely on prajna-paramita,

    and attain anuttara-samyak-sambodhi.
    Like this phrase the best, because Sariputra was already a Arhat in the sutra.
  • misecmisc1misecmisc1 I am a Hindu India Veteran
    edited May 2012
    "Nothing to attain" it says.
    Isn't that shocking?
    @zenff: My view: if it is seen from the ultimate truth perspective or seeing the things as 'just they are', then it is not shocking :) - it is another way of seeing anicca, dukkha and anatta in all conditioned things - so all conditioned things are empty of any inherent existence - so there is nothing to attain.
  • taiyakitaiyaki Veteran
    The whole point is to be open.

    Nothing to cultivate, nothing to maintain thus cultivation is possible.

    To give you intimacy. Sound of clock go tick tick tick. Birds churp churp churp. Itchy arm pit. In each instant the empty universe asserts itself.

    Thieves may enter but the house is empty.
  • "Nothing to attain" it says.
    Isn't that shocking?
    But it's only true when it's really true.

    To say so prematurely may be easy, but I believe suffering will tell the story.

    Honesty and truth.

    Namaste.
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    edited May 2012
    There's a second part. Having nothing to attain there is no fear. One of the Christmas presents I received was a beginner guide to some Buddhism this was before I got very into 'buddhism'. It said that fishermen often recited the heart sutra before going out to see as a prayer against fear. So only some fishes to attain.
  • edited May 2012
    The version I recite/chant is the Red Pine translation, quite different from the version quoted in the original post:

    The Noble Avalokiteshvara Bodhisattva,
    while practicing the deep practice of Prajnaparamita,
    looked upon the Five Skandhas
    and seeing they were empty of self-existence,
    said, "Here Shariputra,
    form is emptiness, emptiness is form;
    emptiness is not separate from form,
    form is not separate from emptiness;
    whatever is form is emptiness;
    whatever is emptiness is form.
    The same holds for sensation and perception,
    memory and consciousness.
    Here, Shariputra, all dharmas are defined by emptiness
    not birth or destruction, purity or defilement,
    completeness or deficiency.
    Therefore, Shariputra, in emptiness there is no form,
    no sensation, no perception, no memory and no
    consciousness;
    no eye, no ear, no nose, no tongue, no body and no mind;
    no shape, no sound, no smell, no taste, no feeling
    and no thought;
    no element of perception, from eye to conceptual
    consciousness;
    no causal link, from ignorance to old age and death,
    and no end of causal link, from ignorance to old age and death;
    no suffering, no source, no relief, no path;
    no knowledge, no attainment and no non-attainment
    Therefore, Shariputra, without attainment,
    bodhisattvas take refuge in Prajnaparamita
    and live without walls of the mind.
    Without walls of the mind and thus without fears,
    they see through delusions and finally nirvana.
    All buddhas past, present and future
    also take refuge in Prajnaparamita
    and realize unexcelled, perfect enlightenment.
    You should therefore know the great mantra of Prajnaparamita,
    the mantra of great magic,
    the unexcelled mantra,
    which heals all suffering and is true, not false,
    the mantra in Prajnaparamita spoken thus:
    'Gate, gate, paragate, parasangate, bodhi svaha.'"
  • zenffzenff Veteran
    “Nothing to attain” just strikes me as a powerful line.
    Much like a punch in the face.
  • RichardHRichardH Veteran
    Remember that those who are talking about the emptiness of the Four Noble Truths.. have already realized the Four Noble Truths.. and are not saying "aaahhh don't bother with that". The Heart Sutra can be really powerful, but it can also be fodder for musers.
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    The reason for the above (and no eye no ear no nose etc) is so that emptiness is not grasped to or reified.
  • LostieLostie Veteran
    I find the first few words 觀自在 most striking. You observe yourself, and just be carefree. It's up to you.

    自在(梵文:ईश्वर),音譯伊濕伐羅,佛典用語。又作無礙、縱任,即自由自在,隨心所欲,做任何事均無障礙。此為諸佛及上位菩薩所具之功德,故佛亦稱自在人。
    http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/自在
  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran
    Remember that those who are talking about the emptiness of the Four Noble Truths.. have already realized the Four Noble Truths.. and are not saying "aaahhh don't bother with that". The Heart Sutra can be really powerful, but it can also be fodder for musers.
    Yes, and this is clear from the first four lines - the realisations in this sutra are the result of "deeply practicing prajna-paramita".
  • Although it's ultimately paradoxical and counterproductive to grasp at any concept of emptiness of phenomena on the path to dispelling mistaken conceptions and mental labels obscuring sense perception, having a conceptual grounding in this wisdom of right-view initially can be beneficial to practice. Here the analogy of the raft is apt; we use the raft to help us get to the other shore, but once we are there we abandon the raft as it is surplus to requirement and is only a burden.

    An except from Nagarjuna's Seventy Stanzas: A Buddhist Psychology of Emptiness (which I highly recommend for any students of Mahayana, or Theravada for that matter):
    The whole point of Nagarjuna's discourse in the Seventy Stanzas is to covert mistaken conceptions into correct beliefs and, eventually, valid cognitions. This can be done through the use of a logical exposition and is the method referred to as "prasanga". However developing a correct belief is not adequate for obtaining liberation, it is only a preliminary... In a manner of speaking, a correct or valid conceptual cognition shows one where to look, but then must be removed or else it will obscure the view.

    The commentary to Seventy Stanzas presents a summary of the meditative path within the context of developing a consciousness which can directly and validly cognize the emptiness of phenomena. Here reasoning is an initial step on the meditative path because for a person without training the emptiness of phenomena is not something that can been seen directly, and the meditator must know what to meditate upon. The Karika(s) of the Seventy Stanzas describe the actual nature of phenomena; to study and comprehend them is to replace mistaken conceptual cognitions first with correct beliefs and then with valid conceptual cognitions. The intense intellectual effort made to comprehend the reasonings of the karikas and develop valid conceptual cognitions is referred to as an analytic meditation... The mental images of the valid conceptual cognitions developed in this analytic meditation are then utilized as the objects of attention in the practice of stabilizing meditations, which are onepointed.

    In the next stage of the actual meditative path one seeks to develop what is called calm abiding because upon the calming of the distractions originating in the five material senses the mental consciousness abides one-pointedly and non-discursively on a mental object of observation (in this case the mental image of emptiness)... When not actually performing this stabilizing meditation one would return to analytic meditation on emptiness to further cultivate valid conceptual cognitions of emptiness.

    The next stage on the meditative path is the development of special insight. Initially one strengthens and harmonizes the stabilizing meditations and the analytic meditations by alternating between the two of them. Eventually each one refines and induces the other; the onepointedness developed in stabilizing meditations makes the analytic meditations onepointed, penetrating and powerful, while the understanding of emptiness developed in the analytic meditations makes the stabilizing meditations firmer and more intense. At this point one has actually obtained calm abiding and special insight and one's experiences of emptiness goes beyond mere conceptualizations. Upon their union, with emptiness as their object, the Path of Preparation is obtained.

    I also recommend Nagarjuna's Mlamadhyamakakrik: The Fundamental Wisdom of the Middle Way


  • Yes, and this is clear from the first four lines - the realisations in this sutra are the result of "deeply practicing prajna-paramita".
    Yes this is the knowing of Avalokiteshvara Bodhisattva - not your average resident street punk :)

    Therefore, Shariputra, without attainment,
    bodhisattvas take refuge in Prajnaparamita
    and live without walls of the mind.
    Without walls of the mind and thus without fears,
    they see through delusions and finally nirvana.
    All buddhas past, present and future
    also take refuge in Prajnaparamita
    and realize unexcelled, perfect enlightenment.


    Thanks @RichardH and @porpoise
  • And now for some comments from teachers around the place:

    image

    I want to give the conclusion to this Prajna Paramita Sutra this morning. In short, this sutra suggests to us how everything exists. Everything exists in two ways, visible and invisible. Something visible is not invisible. Actual existence has two faces, visible and umm…invisible. Something visible is not visible. Something not visible is visible. That is true. Because you think only something visible is only existence so you attach to something visible. And when you think only thing exists is something visible you become attached to some particular thing. If you understand something visible is not …is at the same time invisible, and something invisible…is something invisible actually exists, there will be no need to be attached to something visible only and there will be no need for you to be afraid of losing your existence in visible realm. If you understand two faces of ultimate existence there is no more fear and you own everything.

    The practice…..by practice of zen you will have actual feeling of this feeling. So in this sutra says… “Form is emptiness”. Form is something visible and emptiness is something invisible. If I say in this way it is too abstract, so it may be rather difficult to understand.


    Shunryu Suzuki Roshi
  • Floating_AbuFloating_Abu Veteran
    edited May 2012
    Thanks @enso for bringing another translation.

    Here is the one from some of the Tibetans in the Lama Yeshe Archive: Heart Sutra

    Perhaps it will help clarify the context a bit better for some of the comments in this thread as it shows that the Heart Sutra is the basis of a practice explanation for interested Buddhists - not to be taken just as everything goes, nothing to attain etc
    Thus did I hear at one time. The Bhagavan was dwelling on Mass of Vultures Mountain in Rajagriha together with a great community of monks and a great community of bodhisattvas. At that time, the Bhagavan was absorbed in the concentration on the categories of phenomena called “Profound Perception.”

    Also, at that time, the bodhisattva mahasattva arya Avalokiteshvara looked upon the very practice of the profound perfection of wisdom and beheld those five aggregates also as empty of inherent nature.

    Then, through the power of Buddha, the venerable Shariputra said this to the bodhisattva mahasattva arya Avalokiteshvara: “How should any son of the lineage train who wishes to practice the activity of the profound perfection of wisdom?”


    He said that and the bodhisattva mahasattva arya Avalokiteshvara said this to the venerable Sharadvatiputra. “Shariputra, any son of the lineage or daughter of the lineage who wishes to practice the activity of the profound perfection of wisdom should look upon it like this, correctly and repeatedly beholding those five aggregates also as empty of inherent nature.

    “Form is empty. Emptiness is form. Emptiness is not other than form; form is also not other than emptiness. In the same way, feeling, discrimination, compositional factors, and consciousness are empty.

    “Shariputra, likewise, all phenomena are emptiness; without characteristic; unproduced, unceased; stainless, not without stain; not deficient, not fulfilled.

    “Shariputra, therefore, in emptiness there is no form, no feeling, no discrimination, no compositional factors, no consciousness; no eye, no ear, no nose, no tongue, no body, no mind; no visual form, no sound, no odor, no taste, no object of touch, and no phenomenon. There is no eye element and so on up to and including no mind element and no mental consciousness element. There is no ignorance, no extinction of ignorance, and so on up to and including no aging and death and no extinction of aging and death. Similarly, there is no suffering, origination, cessation, and path; there is no exalted wisdom, no attainment, and also no non-attainment.

    “Shariputra, therefore, because there is no attainment, bodhisattvas rely on and dwell in the perfection of wisdom, the mind without obscuration and without fear. Having completely passed beyond error, they reach the end-point of nirvana. All the buddhas who dwell in the three times also manifestly, completely awaken to unsurpassable, perfect, complete enlightenment in reliance on the perfection of wisdom.

    “Therefore, the mantra of the perfection of wisdom, the mantra of great knowledge, the unsurpassed mantra, the mantra equal to the unequaled, the mantra that thoroughly pacifies all suffering, should be known as truth since it is not false. The mantra of the perfection of wisdom is declared:

    TADYATHA [OM] GATE GATE PARAGATE PARASAMGATE BODHI SVAHA

    “Shariputra, the bodhisattva mahasattva should train in the profound perfection of wisdom like that.”

    Then the Bhagavan arose from that concentration and commended the bodhisattva mahasattva arya Avalokiteshvara saying: “Well said, well said, son of the lineage, it is like that. It is like that; one should practice the profound perfection of wisdom just as you have indicated; even the tathagatas rejoice.”


    The Bhagavan having thus spoken, the venerable Sharadvatiputra, the bodhisattva mahasattva arya Avalokiteshvara, those surrounding in their entirety along with the world of gods, humans, asuras, and gandharvas were overjoyed and highly praised that spoken by the Bhagavan.

    (This completes the Ârya-bhagavatî-prajñâpâramitâ-hridaya-sûtra)
  • Floating_AbuFloating_Abu Veteran
    edited May 2012
    image
    Venerable Thich Nhat Hanh:

    We do not recite the Heart Sutra like singing a song, or with our intellect alone. If you practise the meditation on emptiness, if you penetrate the nature of interbeing with all your heart, your body, and your mind, you will realize a state that is quite concentrated. If you say the mantra then, with all your being, the mantra will have power and you will be able to have real communication, real communion with Avalokitesvara, and you will be able to transform yourself in the direction of enlightenment.
    This text is not just for chanting, or to be put on an altar for worship. It is given to us as a tool to work for our liberation, for the liberation of all beings. It is like a tool for farming, given to us so that we may farm. This is the gift of Avalokita.
    There are three kinds of gift. The first is the gift of material resources. The second is the gift of know-how, the gift of the Dharma. The third, the highest kind of gift, is the gift of non-fear. Avalokitesvara is someone who can help us liberate ourselves from fear.
    The Heart Sutra gives us solid ground for making peace with ourselves, for transcending the fear of birth and death, the duality of this and that.
  • If you understand something visible is not …is at the same time invisible, and something invisible…is something invisible actually exists, there will be no need to be attached to something visible only and there will be no need for you to be afraid of losing your existence in visible realm. If you understand two faces of ultimate existence there is no more fear and you own everything.
    Keeping Mu with me, one day I was standing before my altar at home and this realization sprung to mind out of nowhere; that it's all one, everything. There is nothing 'outside' it all, because the outside is not separate from the inside; existence, non-existence - no separation. As soon as you try to conceptualize it, because of the nature of conceptualization, you introduce separation. This separation is an illusion.

  • Floating_AbuFloating_Abu Veteran
    edited May 2012
    image
    We have attained a precious human birth, which is difficult to find. This precious human birth we achieved because of past causes and conditions. We have achieved it because of the vows we upheld in previous lives, the practices of the six perfections, and bodhicitta in the past..

    The tradition is Tibet is to read the Prajnaparamita as often as you can, so I have read them many times. But this was just the literal reading..

    It is said in the time of Shakyamuni some students were shocked when they heard of emptiness. Without proper guidance and instruction one is in danger of falling into the view of Ha Shang or the extreme view that emptiness is nothingness.


    The practice of Prajnaparamita
    Medicine Buddha Sangha, Baltimore
  • Floating_AbuFloating_Abu Veteran
    edited May 2012
    If you understand something visible is not …is at the same time invisible, and something invisible…is something invisible actually exists, there will be no need to be attached to something visible only and there will be no need for you to be afraid of losing your existence in visible realm. If you understand two faces of ultimate existence there is no more fear and you own everything.
    Keeping Mu with me, one day I was standing before my altar at home and this realization sprung to mind out of nowhere; that it's all one, everything. There is nothing 'outside' it all, because the outside is not separate from the inside; existence, non-existence - no separation. As soon as you try to conceptualize it, because of the nature of conceptualization, you introduce separation. This separation is an illusion.

    nods

    Practice, practice, practice

    image

    Namaste.

  • Practice, practice, practice
    On-going. Namaste. _/\_

  • patbbpatbb Veteran
    edited May 2012
    nice thread @Floating_Abu

    To those who think about nothing to attain,

    I think the mention and description of the things one who have walked the path experienced, are simply to inspire those who are walking the path right now.
    To motivate them to get the work done and see for themselves.

    imo, the only useful thing in this sutra is:
    "when deeply practicing prajna-paramita,
    clearly saw that the five skandhas are all empty,"

    The rest is inspiration, telling us what we can expect if we do the above.

    So to me, im just thinking "let do this "when deeply practicing prajna-paramita,
    clearly saw that the five skandhas are all empty" and compare the findings of my observations with those of whoever wrote this Sutra.
  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran
    What does this bit mean?

    "Therefore, in emptiness,
    no forms, no sensations, perceptions, impressions, or consciousness;
    no eyes, ears, nose, tongue, body, mind;"
  • taiyakitaiyaki Veteran
    What does this bit mean?

    "Therefore, in emptiness,
    no forms, no sensations, perceptions, impressions, or consciousness;
    no eyes, ears, nose, tongue, body, mind;"
    None of those are graspable because they arise due to conditions.

    Sense organ + sense object + contact = arising of sense consciousness

    Each part requires the other condition thus everything is like grasping at sand. Empty of any abiding entity. That isn't to deny the vivid appearance but to point out that even the skandhas are empty.

    In life there is only movement, which is the dynamic stillness. What is there to grasp to? We are nakedness itself but what good does that help others?

    Anyways just my intellectual babbling.
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    edited May 2012
    @taiyaki, and the yogic experience is also ungraspable. No eye etc (in emptiness) so that a dependently originated eye is not reified into something graspable. There is nothing whatsoever to grasp onto. Not God not Dharmakaya not truth and not the Buddha. Nothing whatsoever is graspable.

    So good morning.
  • CinorjerCinorjer Veteran
    edited May 2012
    What does this bit mean?

    "Therefore, in emptiness,
    no forms, no sensations, perceptions, impressions, or consciousness;
    no eyes, ears, nose, tongue, body, mind;"
    I agree with @Taiyaki

    The writer is reaffirming that within emptiness we cannot even find the skandhas, either arising from body or mind (remember form is just one of the skandhas and it refers to the physical body and processes).

    While meditating on the sutra some years ago and pondering how any discussion of this or that line devolves to confused argument, I realized the writer of the sutra was playing a trick on us and busted out laughing in a room full of serious Zen meditators.

    There is no argument that this sutra means something profound, as its popularity over the centuries demonstrates. Exactly what it means is subject to endless debate. Yet there is something about this sutra that nibbles at the mind, that makes us want to take it apart and examine it line for line to see what the heck they're talking about. It's beautiful and profound and we need to know what makes it so powerful. But, this sutra is in the form of a poem or chant in and of itself and should be chanted or read in its entirety along with the famous last lines. Like any poem or tune, from the first word to the last word, it takes your mind on a journey.

    So what happens when we try to take it apart, to dissect it to see what makes it so special? The lines become nonsense, or meaningless, or illogical or confusing. Just when we think one line or point being made begins to make sense, the next line takes us in a different direction.

    The meaning of the sutra disappears when we look past the overall form and the emptiness of the individual lines is apparent.

    In other words, the sutra itself is the metaexample of what it's trying to say. The form of the sutra is composed of emptiness. The emptiness of the component parts is what creates the form of the sutra. Emptiness is form and form is emptiness. Does knowing that form is ultimately empty mean the form doesn't exist or has no meaning? Of course not. Form is also form, and emptiness is also emptiness.

    For what it's worth.
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    Nice translation here with commentary after each stanza too. Pretty good. :)

    http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/heartstr.htm
  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran
    What does this bit mean?

    "Therefore, in emptiness,
    no forms, no sensations, perceptions, impressions, or consciousness;
    no eyes, ears, nose, tongue, body, mind;"
    None of those are graspable because they arise due to conditions.

    Sense organ + sense object + contact = arising of sense consciousness

    Each part requires the other condition thus everything is like grasping at sand. Empty of any abiding entity. That isn't to deny the vivid appearance but to point out that even the skandhas are empty.

    In life there is only movement, which is the dynamic stillness. What is there to grasp to? We are nakedness itself but what good does that help others?

    Anyways just my intellectual babbling.
    I can see that the skandha are empty of inherent existence because they are dependently arisen, and that seeing this directly would mean not grasping at them.
    But the quote seems to say that there are no skandhas?
  • taiyakitaiyaki Veteran
    @porpoise

    its a non affirming negation. we grasp at the skandhas if there is a such thing as the skandhas. everything is like a dream, appearing yet as soon we look its gone.

    we cannot say it exists, doesn't exist, neither or both. any view or movement of attachment/aversion is the assumption that there is actually something there to grasp, hold onto, escape from, change, etc.

    it appears to be nihilistic, but it isn't because its not positing something to nothing. but rather it is taking away this something that we assert and whats left is the suchness of phenomena, which pop like bubbles.

    hope this helps.
  • edited May 2012
    @porpoise

    I can see that the skandha are empty of inherent existence because they are dependently arisen, and that seeing this directly would mean not grasping at them.
    But the quote seems to say that there are no skandhas?
    The Buddha also rediscovered an attainment beyond the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, the "cessation of feelings and perceptions." This is sometimes called the "ninth jhāna" in commentarial and scholarly literature.

    About this, it is said: "Seeing with discernment, his fermentations were totally ended. He emerged mindfully from that attainment. On emerging mindfully from that attainment, he regarded the past qualities that had ceased & changed: 'So this is how these qualities, not having been, come into play. Having been, they vanish.' He remained unattracted & unrepelled with regard to those qualities, independent, detached, released, dissociated, with an awareness rid of barriers. He discerned that 'There is no further escape,' and pursuing it there really wasn't for him."

    Someone attaining this state is an anagami or an arahant. In the above extract, the Buddha narrates that Sariputta became an arahant upon reaching it.
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    edited May 2012
    @porpoise, I believe no eye means that there is no graspable eye even a dependently originated eye (and graspable). Nothing is graspable. Not truth. Not buddha. Not life. Not love. Not death.
  • taiyakitaiyaki Veteran
    The eye isn't experienced unless one looks at a mirror. And even then it is just colors, which form shapes, and shapes with light forming forms. And on that stream of experience we label an eye, "eye".

    So the eye itself is never truly experienced other than its effect, which is vision.
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    edited May 2012
    Definitively there is tissue and an optic nerve and parts and so forth. Of course. But in our experience what is there?

    I am not enlightened so I think I am looking out there with my eye. But I don't know what this experience is. My eyes have tension in them. But when I try to find that tension it is just kind of energy and I cannot verbalize it other than just saying 'feeling'. I feel my feet are kind of sweaty. There is a breeze. Where does the wind come from?

    Or as woody guthrie said "why can't the wind blow backwards (in a song).. why? oh why? oh why? Because because because because... goodbye goodbye goodbye."
  • Definitively there is tissue and an optic nerve and parts and so forth. Of course. But in our experience what is there?
    You've just raised a very important point. That all definitions are completely arbitrary, where does the eye really begin and end? If we look at this in an anatomical sense, at what point does the eye begin and end? The dividing line drawn is completely arbitrary; another example of chopping the world up into things, categorizing for the convenience of communication, etc.

    image
  • patbbpatbb Veteran
    I am not enlightened so I think I am looking out there with my eye.
    about trying to think of it as:
    "the eyes are looking out there"?

    does it change anything?
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    edited May 2012
    I am not enlightened so I think I am looking out there with my eye.
    about trying to think of it as:
    "the eyes are looking out there"?

    does it change anything?
    The experience does not belong to an eye. An eye is form skandha whereas the sixth sense is the other skhandas. So the 'I' that is looking is the mental skhandas whereas the 'eye' which does not 'look' as 'look' is mental.

    Awareness is sharp and sensitive and wounded. Bodhicitta. Trungpa said that when we first find our wounds as we come from out of the cacoon we wonder what they are like deer having buds on their heads do not know what they will become. Dull statue awareness can cause rebirth as an animal. (one of Trungpa's students said)
  • What does this bit mean?

    "Therefore, in emptiness,
    no forms, no sensations, perceptions, impressions, or consciousness;
    no eyes, ears, nose, tongue, body, mind;"
    Dear @porpoise

    It means exactly what it says.

    It is truly beautiful

    Namaste,
    Abu
  • What does this bit mean?

    "Therefore, in emptiness,
    no forms, no sensations, perceptions, impressions, or consciousness;
    no eyes, ears, nose, tongue, body, mind;"
    None of those are graspable because they arise due to conditions.

    Sense organ + sense object + contact = arising of sense consciousness

    Each part requires the other condition thus everything is like grasping at sand. Empty of any abiding entity. That isn't to deny the vivid appearance but to point out that even the skandhas are empty.
    Dear @taiyaki

    If you close your eyes, does this mean you can't see?

    I think the Heart Sutra in that quote means exactly what it says. Surely that can only be known through practice.

    This is the sutra of Avalokiteshvara Bodhisattva and who says all Bodhisattvas practice thusly :) Therefore it definitely furthers investigation.

    Namaste,
    Abu
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    @Floating_Abu, your question is from the surangama sutra... It would be an interesting discussion... I always like to read both of your responses.


  • So what happens when we try to take it apart, to dissect it to see what makes it so special? The lines become nonsense, or meaningless, or illogical or confusing. Just when we think one line or point being made begins to make sense, the next line takes us in a different direction.
    Dear Cinorjer old friend! Thanks for your input.
    I would just like to add my perspective which is the Sutra is just a fully open honest basic expose of reality. It is so beautiful in its truth and to me, it is an encouragement that practice makes all things possible -- to the extent that the words make perfect sense in genuine realisation - just as they are.

    I know that might sound offensive, but I just wanted to throw that out there as a possibility.

    Best wishes,
    Abu
  • The eye isn't experienced unless one looks at a mirror. And even then it is just colors, which form shapes, and shapes with light forming forms. And on that stream of experience we label an eye, "eye".

    So the eye itself is never truly experienced other than its effect, which is vision.
    Are you serious?

    How's that zendo training goin' for ya, furry one? :p
  • Floating_AbuFloating_Abu Veteran
    edited May 2012
    "@Floating_Abu, your question is from the surangama sutra... It would be an interesting discussion... I always like to read both of your responses. "

    @Jeffrey

    It is? Neat, it's a practice point.

    I just kept reading down after my response to taiyaki and am laughing as I see the discussion has turned to the eye and enso even posted a picture of an eye!

    Funny stuff :D
  • taiyakitaiyaki Veteran
    What does this bit mean?

    "Therefore, in emptiness,
    no forms, no sensations, perceptions, impressions, or consciousness;
    no eyes, ears, nose, tongue, body, mind;"
    None of those are graspable because they arise due to conditions.

    Sense organ + sense object + contact = arising of sense consciousness

    Each part requires the other condition thus everything is like grasping at sand. Empty of any abiding entity. That isn't to deny the vivid appearance but to point out that even the skandhas are empty.
    Dear @taiyaki

    If you close your eyes, does this mean you can't see?

    I think the Heart Sutra in that quote means exactly what it says. Surely that can only be known through practice.

    This is the sutra of Avalokiteshvara Bodhisattva and who says all Bodhisattvas practice thusly :) Therefore it definitely furthers investigation.

    Namaste,
    Abu
    If the eyes are closed there are still visuals. Be it mental, or the varying shades of luminous shapes and dots. But this does require contact.

    If instance if I focus on my butt on the chair then at that moment i am not focusing on the vision of the red strawberry. The movement of mental contact is from tactile to visual. Each moment of contact is key. And all there are is the 6 stream of consciousness, which intermingle to create the continuum we call "experience".
  • @porpoise, I believe no eye means that there is no graspable eye even a dependently originated eye (and graspable). Nothing is graspable. Not truth. Not buddha. Not life. Not love. Not death.
    Dear Friends,

    I would just change the slant actually -- I think it is not so much about where the eye starts and ends, or where we are looking because if you insist on talking about eye, vision, object etc (taiyaki), in Buddhist terms all that is is consciousness.

    Eye consciousness for example.

    But the Heart Sutra is much more encompassing than this.

    Look:


    Shariputra, therefore, in emptiness there is no form, no feeling, no discrimination, no compositional factors, no consciousness; no eye, no ear, no nose, no tongue, no body, no mind; no visual form, no sound, no odor, no taste, no object of touch, and no phenomenon. There is no eye element and so on up to and including no mind element and no mental consciousness element. There is no ignorance, no extinction of ignorance, and so on up to and including no aging and death and no extinction of aging and death. Similarly, there is no suffering, origination, cessation, and path; there is no exalted wisdom, no attainment, and also no non-attainment.


    etc

    IOW it is a relay of the knowing of the Buddhas:

    “Shariputra, therefore, because there is no attainment, bodhisattvas rely on and dwell in the perfection of wisdom, the mind without obscuration and without fear. Having completely passed beyond error, they reach the end-point of nirvana. All the buddhas who dwell in the three times also manifestly, completely awaken to unsurpassable, perfect, complete enlightenment in reliance on the perfection of wisdom.


    i.e. I am sorry but I think it is just a straight forward account of things, and in my own opinion, it can be never deducted with thought (reference Heart Sutra: no discrimination) because how can something which is secondary in this case i.e. discrimination deduce the true meaning of this Sutra which points to something beyond consciousness

    Abu
  • If the eyes are closed there are still visuals. Be it mental, or the varying shades of luminous shapes and dots. But this does require contact.

    If instance if I focus on my butt on the chair then at that moment i am not focusing on the vision of the red strawberry. The movement of mental contact is from tactile to visual. Each moment of contact is key. And all there are is the 6 stream of consciousness, which intermingle to create the continuum we call "experience".
    Without imagination, without projection, still there is sight.

    Best wishes,
    Abu
  • taiyakitaiyaki Veteran
    If the eyes are closed there are still visuals. Be it mental, or the varying shades of luminous shapes and dots. But this does require contact.

    If instance if I focus on my butt on the chair then at that moment i am not focusing on the vision of the red strawberry. The movement of mental contact is from tactile to visual. Each moment of contact is key. And all there are is the 6 stream of consciousness, which intermingle to create the continuum we call "experience".
    Without imagination, without projection, still there is sight.

    Best wishes,
    Abu
    Can you elaborate?

    Are you saying there is always vision?
  • Dear friend @taiyaki

    I want to say I appreciate how gracious and kind you always are.

    I searched the Surangama Sutra as referred by Jeffrey and here is what is recorded (thankyou @Jeffrey for referring me to this)

    The Buddha told Ananda, “Today the Tathagata will tell you truly that all those with wisdom are able to achieve enlightenment through the use of examples. 2:2

    ”Ananda, take, for example, my fist: if I didn’t have a hand, I couldn’t make a fist. If you didn’t have eyes, you couldn’t see. If you apply the example of my fist to the case of your eyes, is the idea the same?” 2:4

    Ananda said, “Yes, World Honored One. Since I can’t see without my eyes, if one applies the example of the Buddha’s fist to the case of your eyes, the idea is the same.” 2:4

    The Buddha said to Ananda, “You say it is the same, but that is not right. Why? If a person has no hand, his fist is gone forever. But one who is without eyes is not entirely devoid of sight. 2:5

    ”For what reason? Try consulting a blind man on the street: ‘What do you see?’ 2:5

    ”Any blind man will certainly answer, ‘Now I see only black in front of my eyes. Nothing else meets my gaze.’ 2:5

    ”The meaning is apparent: if he sees blackness in front of him, how could his seeing be considered ‘lost’?” 2:5

    Ananda said, “The only thing blind people see in front of their eyes is blackness. How can that be seeing?” 2:6

    The Buddha said to Ananda, “Is there any difference between the blackness seen by blind people, who do not have the use of their eyes, and the blackness seen by someone who has the use of his eyes when he is in a dark room?” 2:6

    ”So it is, World Honored One. Between the two kinds of blackness, that seen by the person in a dark room and that seen by the blind, there is no difference.” 2:6

    ”Ananda, if the person without the use of his eyes who sees only blackness were suddenly to regain his sight and see all kinds of forms, and you say it is his eyes which see, then when the person in a dark room who sees only blackness suddenly sees all kinds of forms because a lamp is lit, you should say it is the lamp which sees. 2:7

    ”If it is a case of the lamp seeing, it would be a lamp endowed with sight - which couldn’t be called a lamp. And if the lamp were to do the seeing, how would you be involved? 2:8

    ”Therefore you should know that while the lamp can reveal the forms, it is the eyes, not the lamp, that do the seeing. And while the eyes can reveal the forms, the seeing-nature comes from the mind, not the eyes.”
    2:8
    The Shurangama Sutra
  • Can you elaborate?

    Are you saying there is always vision?
    Hi @taiyaki

    I did a Search and found the Surangama Sutra - perhaps that will suffice.

    I would also like to say that what I say is not so important as I hope that you will reconsider your practice, with mine.

    Metta,

    Abu
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