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Degeneration of Religion - Tsem Rinpoche

edited May 2012 in Arts & Writings
There is a Tibetan monk Tsem Rinpoche who created a shockwave across religion lately by his speech on the Degeneration of Religion, do you agree with what he said?

watch his speech here:


Comments

  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    First (and I'm not saying he said this), I don't really think that Christianity says just believe in God and all problems are solved. Christianity gives people a whole list of things people should do or not do. And believe in God.

    I think this homily is excellent! Partly because it is not an "us versus them" message.

    My question to you Tinyeshe, is I'm not aware of any "shockwave" that has been created by this sermon.
  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    He's teaching in English, so his teaching is for a Western audience, but I don't know any Westerners who practice Buddhism as superficially as he describes. Buddhism is all about taking responsibility for your actions, that's Buddhism 101. This also seems to be a caricature of Christian worshipers, as well. Normally, I like Tsem Tulku's teachings, but this doesn't seem to be up to his usual standard.
  • personperson Don't believe everything you think The liminal space Veteran
    What's with the background music?
  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    edited May 2012
    What's with the "Amazing Talk by..." hype? The quality of Tsem's talks usually speaks for itself. He doesn't need hype. Buddhism is becoming too commercial, maybe that's what the "degeneration" is about...
  • personperson Don't believe everything you think The liminal space Veteran
    Its a good message about taking the teachings of religion to heart and not simply relying on the power of a diety or the Buddha to make everything right. He probably does go overboard in his characterization which I find he tends to do, but in traditionally Buddhist cultures superstitious practices are the norm over a real understanding of the Dharma.
  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    Its a good message about taking the teachings of religion to heart and not simply relying on the power of a diety or the Buddha to make everything right. He probably does go overboard in his characterization which I find he tends to do, but in traditionally Buddhist cultures superstitious practices are the norm over a real understanding of the Dharma.
    Right, this was my original point. This talk sounds like it's designed more for traditionally practicing Buddhists, not for Westerners.

  • mithrilmithril Veteran
    1. He is ignoring heart sutra. He is giving form absolute existence, ignores emptiness.

    2. He is ignoring that the noble truths apply to everyone. He undermines the sense of importance of their own suffering to people who he thinks got themselves into the position. He speaks almost if its not a case based on wrong understanding, but something completely justified simply happening to someone who is evil.

    3. He is talking as if peoples ignorant, stupid, cruel side doesn't exist (and not exist in him). If it should to some point exist, it should be opposed, exterminated, thrown out. Any person meditating for a while here should know pretty well how our minds can be full of shit and nonsense sometimes :) And should know quite well what happens when you attempt to oppose it by force also.

    His talk is an expression of his own frustration, when people are not like how he envisions them what they should be like, and seeing they are not. It is a world of opposition (i.e. hell realm). He talks as if you're in religion, or your out. This is ridiculous.

    He talks as if awareness is anywhere else then in the present, condemning people for having made mistakes in the past. I get the impression from the speech that past mistakes should determine your current self into a world of suffering, ignorance, and low awareness; that in his opinion, that is the only way for you to get what you deserve in that. That is in direct contradiction with the fourth noble truth - saying that cessation of suffering is attainable (by following ...).
  • genkakugenkaku Northampton, Mass. U.S.A. Veteran
    Every day is a day of degeneration.

    Every day is a day of nourishing potential.

    Your life, your choice.
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    1. He is ignoring heart sutra. He is giving form absolute existence, ignores emptiness.

    2. He is ignoring that the noble truths apply to everyone. He undermines the sense of importance of their own suffering to people who he thinks got themselves into the position. He speaks almost if its not a case based on wrong understanding, but something completely justified simply happening to someone who is evil.

    3. He is talking as if peoples ignorant, stupid, cruel side doesn't exist (and not exist in him). If it should to some point exist, it should be opposed, exterminated, thrown out. Any person meditating for a while here should know pretty well how our minds can be full of shit and nonsense sometimes :) And should know quite well what happens when you attempt to oppose it by force also.

    His talk is an expression of his own frustration, when people are not like how he envisions them what they should be like, and seeing they are not. It is a world of opposition (i.e. hell realm). He talks as if you're in religion, or your out. This is ridiculous.

    He talks as if awareness is anywhere else then in the present, condemning people for having made mistakes in the past. I get the impression from the speech that past mistakes should determine your current self into a world of suffering, ignorance, and low awareness; that in his opinion, that is the only way for you to get what you deserve in that. That is in direct contradiction with the fourth noble truth - saying that cessation of suffering is attainable (by following ...).
    Sounds like you want him to be dogmatic.

  • mithrilmithril Veteran


    Sounds like you want him to be dogmatic.

    May you explain that a bit further? What makes you think that?

  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran


    Sounds like you want him to be dogmatic.

    May you explain that a bit further? What makes you think that?

    It sounds to me as if you are criticizing him for not saying the same old stuff that every other monk says about Buddhism. To me, that's dogma.

  • mithrilmithril Veteran


    Sounds like you want him to be dogmatic.

    May you explain that a bit further? What makes you think that?

    It sounds to me as if you are criticizing him for not saying the same old stuff that every other monk says about Buddhism. To me, that's dogma.

    Sorry for being annoying, but i still can't figure out what you mean.

    Is something i said different in your view and experience?

    What view do you think i hold that is the same as those of the monks you mention (but which you disagree with)?

  • andyrobynandyrobyn Veteran
    edited May 2012


    Sounds like you want him to be dogmatic.

    May you explain that a bit further? What makes you think that?

    It sounds to me as if you are criticizing him for not saying the same old stuff that every other monk says about Buddhism. To me, that's dogma.

    What was said in this Dharma talk which is so different to other Dharma talks? Also, I have heard Tsem Rinpoche talk, on more than one occasion so maybe his style and delivery does not seem so new to me, and my own teacher is similar ... is that what it is all about - his personality?
  • CinorjerCinorjer Veteran
    He's got the preaching down pat. This is the "What is religion all about?" sermon.

    There is a craft and skill to structuring a sermon, and he obviously has been taught or learned to do so. I've sat through a thousand sermons having been raised by a Christian Minister, and recognize the subject as "What should we expect from God?" in its many variations such as "Should we expect God to answer all prayers?" Or even "Is accepting Christ as your Savior enough?" and so on.

    First time I've heard the subject and sermon from a Buddhist, though. He's very good.

    As for the content, no of course I don't agree with a lot of it. Vastly oversimplifies what God based religions actually preach. Occasionally inserts suspect lines about what Buddhism actually preaches and what is taught. Also completely dismisses faith based practices of simple devotion for all religions including Buddhism, probably the worst fault of his message.

    But, he was speaking to a particular Buddhist audience and telling them what he thought they needed to hear. Also, oversimplifying the "other religions" in their sermons is something all preachers do of any faith unless they're intentionally making a point about universal brotherhood.

  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran


    Sorry for being annoying, but i still can't figure out what you mean.

    Is something i said different in your view and experience?

    What view do you think i hold that is the same as those of the monks you mention (but which you disagree with)?

    Mithril, relax. I liked the homily, you didn't. I thought it put some things in a different light, you didn't like that it did. I can be a dogma person sometimes, here I'm not. You are being a bit dogmatic here (in my view), but that's your right to think in certain patterns.

    Let it go.

  • Disagree, respectfully. In the video Tsem Rinpoche says that he has problems. If he, who does look to a God to solve his problems, has problems, then what difference does it make...

    Religion is not about solving problems. It's about viewing our problems in a meaningful way.
  • mithrilmithril Veteran

    Let it go.
    Ok.

  • DakiniDakini Veteran

    But, he was speaking to a particular Buddhist audience and telling them what he thought they needed to hear.
    I still don't know what that audience is. His talk isn't relevant to Western Buddhists, it's mostly traditional Eastern Buddhists who pray to Buddha and expect Good Stuff to happen, and who don't really observe the precepts, and so forth. But if he were speaking to Eastern Buddhists, he might be speaking in Chinese (he was born in Taiwan), or Russian (he was raised by a Russian-speaking couple), or he'd have an interpreter with him. This video mystifies me.

  • Yes, I agree Dakini - hopefully the person who posted the video will return and be able to answer our questions.
  • I just stumbled on this video here.. thank you to Tin for posting it. H.E. Tsem Tulku Rinpoche is my spiritual guide so if i may, i'd like to share a little here which i hope may shed some light. This talk was given to a mostly Malaysian audience (with guests from around the region - Shanghai, Singapore, Brunei etc) this recent Wesak day, so yes, I would say that it was tailored for an Asian audience. Asians, in general of course, tend to misconstrue religion/God/Buddha as a being to take away our problems or grant wishes, as Rinpoche has explained.

    Re what language Rinpoche would speak in, if anyone is interested in Rinpoche's background, you may read more here (http://blog.tsemtulku.com/tsem-tulku-rinpoche/me/my-short-bio-in-pictures1.html)

    Personally, I found Rinpoche's teaching to be relevant because his key message was that we should not throw responsibility for our own problems to any external deity or being, but instead, we should accept responsibility and we should also know the real purpose of religion, which he says is for us to accept and understand the tenets and the teachings (of whichever religion) and apply them to make our good qualities increase and our not so good qualities transform into good qualities. It is something very pragmatic and applicable for me and for the audience that night too.

    It is important to see that Rinpoche does not criticise any religion. In fact, Rinpoche emphasised that it is not religion which has degenerated but that some of us have degenerated religion by reducing God to a ghost when we ask for samsaric wishes to be fulfilled.




  • CinorjerCinorjer Veteran
    Hi @sharonsaw

    You are blessed to have a spiritual guide who is so articulate. All of us need to ask ourselves once in a while, "What does it mean to say I'm a Buddhist?"

    While it's true that the difference between Buddhism and God based religions is a statement that grace or salvation is not a gift or reward granted by any God or force out there but is something we do through hard effort, it's also true that for many, many Buddhists in the world you would find it hard to tell the difference.

  • Hi @Cinorjer,

    Yes i am very blessed. :) and I agree that many Buddhists would find it hard to find the difference, which is why Rinpoche brings it to our attention :)
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    I seem to recall that Jesus said that you would have a cross to bear. I don't think that Christianity means simply that Hitler would go to heaven if he prays.
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    @Dakini, I know you were talking about perhaps people praying to buddha for luck. But I had some thoughts. Prayer in Tibetan does not have an object or subject. It is a standing verb. My lama says that if we can go so far as to say 'pray TO' then we can go one step further and say 'open to'. Buddha in Mahayana buddhism is directly experienced as Samboghakaya. Thus on the path to awakening is entirely prayer once the bodhisattva level is realized.

    Mahayana isn't based on authentic texts. It is based on transmission from a living being. Emotional energy and communication from wisdom to wisdom. This is why the guru thing. It's really not meant to take advantage of people.
  • CinorjerCinorjer Veteran
    I seem to recall that Jesus said that you would have a cross to bear. I don't think that Christianity means simply that Hitler would go to heaven if he prays.
    No, the process my church taught was, first you truly repent of your sins, then ask God for forgiveness through Christ, then accept Christ as your Lord and Savior. God then forgives past sins and you are transformed, called being born again in the spirit. Your past still exists, of course, as do the consequences of your actions. Your future actions will now be guided by the Holy Spirit within you. Even if that only means ministering to the other prisoners.

    So does Buddhism actually have anything comparable? Are we doomed to suffer in a neverending feedback loop of bad karma? What is sometimes forgotten is that Buddha taught freedom from the wheel of karma, not just a skillful ethical set of behaviors to minimize damage, what we call the precepts.
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    edited May 2012
    Thanks Cinorjer it is cool to know about your background. I had a friend whose father was a Episcapalian priest (or minister?).
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