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do monks really live in the 'real' world?
zenmyste
Veteran
Did Buddha and Monks (past and present) live in the 'real' world?
When I say 'real' world.
Let's face it, the real world is getting up, getting ready for work, working a long hard day just to get abit of money to pay the bills and put food on the table for our family..
BUT not for monks!
No, they don't go to work all day and have the tax man asking questions etc etc.. They don't have to deal with the cost of petrol and the cost of living going up..
They have 'abandoned such a life' and become MONKS..
BUT don't monks live of the 'lay people'?
So the lay people go to work, work hard, earn their money and buy food, and then share it with the MONKS..
but what would happen if lay people decided not to give food anymore?
What would monks do then?
OR what if 'everyone' became MONKS and followed the way of Buddha. What if we didnt work and become beggers like he was and monks are.. Who would we beg to??
We would eventually all starv wouldn't we?
What are your opinions on this?
When I say 'real' world.
Let's face it, the real world is getting up, getting ready for work, working a long hard day just to get abit of money to pay the bills and put food on the table for our family..
BUT not for monks!
No, they don't go to work all day and have the tax man asking questions etc etc.. They don't have to deal with the cost of petrol and the cost of living going up..
They have 'abandoned such a life' and become MONKS..
BUT don't monks live of the 'lay people'?
So the lay people go to work, work hard, earn their money and buy food, and then share it with the MONKS..
but what would happen if lay people decided not to give food anymore?
What would monks do then?
OR what if 'everyone' became MONKS and followed the way of Buddha. What if we didnt work and become beggers like he was and monks are.. Who would we beg to??
We would eventually all starv wouldn't we?
What are your opinions on this?
0
Comments
If that's not "real" enough for you and you have a week free of personal responsibilities, you're more than welcome to spend some time with me on the streets of Skid Row in downtown Los Angeles.
That's not to say that some of what you've said isn't a valid criticism, only that it's not exactly wise to paint such a portrait with a single brush.
Also, not everyone will become monks. Even in Buddha's own time there were many lay people. In old Tibet it is estimated that something like 1 in 5 men became monks and the lay population supported that without starving.
OK ... it's an early fantasy ... people running around thinking that IF ONLY I were a monk or nun, somehow I would be more aligned with the Buddhist stars. And that is why practice comes in handy. Practice weans us from our fantasies and puts us on whatever way is most useful and peaceful ... minus the fantasies.
Fantasies are not something to look down upon. Sometimes fantasies inspire very good practice. But at the same time fantasies do not require disdain, they do need to be (bit by bit, perhaps) seen as fantasies. This does NOT happen overnight. For a long time, perhaps, monks and nuns are the best-est with the most-est. For a long time, perhaps, their monastic surroundings are viewed with awe and longing and (at a deeper level) skepticism.
But in the end, it is our own shut-up-and-do-it practice that informs us all. Monks are monks, People who are not monks are not monks. But everyone is alive and everyone would cherish some peace of mind. So ... monk or layman ...
Practice.
If we all became monastics, the human race would be gone within a couple of generations.
I think monks/nuns do have the courage to really face what is the real world. To give up family, money and posessions to learn about themselves is admirable. Also a lot of them give teachings regularly and at times may be working more than the avarage layperson, while getting paid nothing for it. And at times there is no-one to give food, so they don't even have something to eat.
:vimp: Hats off to them.
Now in terms of your question. Having lived in Thailand for some time, and having visited at least hundreds of temples (perhaps over a thousand), I have seen monks simply being lazy. I have had people say, "Well, you're mistaking their doing nothing for them actually meditating". I know the difference between meditating and sleeping...for example loud snoring. At least in Thailand I think monks could take a lesson from Western ministers who are far more involved in things like charity work. It would allow monks to live away from the world to an extent, while not forgetting what the challenges of the "real world" are. And, it would allow monks to be far more in touch with charity and compassion.
It may seem a bit silly, but whether it's silly or not doesn't make it any less true.
Dear vin
I hear that in some countries including Thailand it is more of a cultural element rather than a genuine practice tradition -- not all of course but possibly quite a few.
Thanks for the smile.
_/\_
"When a person has shaved his hair and beard and put on the ochre robe, that's the symbol of his state as a monk. But it counts only on the external level. Only when he has shaved off the mental tangle — all lower preoccupations — from his heart can you call him a monk on the internal level.
"When a head has been shaved, little creeping insects like lice can't take up residence there. In the same way, when a mind has gained release from its preoccupations and is freed from fabrication, suffering can't take up residence at all. When this becomes your normal state, you can be called a genuine monk."
When i say 'real' world, I only mean the world of 'paying for things, bringing up families, supporting friends in need etc etc..
Anyway, my question only arised because a client of mine today asked me the very same question and i didnt know the answer.
He asked me 'if people started not giving food to the monks then what would they do?
Would they have to start working like the rest of us, and then with work comes TAX, with tax comes debt, with debt can come suffering etc etc...
but thanks for answer anyway.
For those who think monks life is for the lazy, why don't you go and try it out? Sure in 'traditional' countries like Thailand there will be some lazy 'monks', but they won't be able to be it for long, I guess. A genuine monk's life seems to me to be quite tough and challenging. Probably worth it, but certainly not easy. A lot of lay people are already scared for going on a week long retreat.. Let alone for months or even years. There are only few people who can do that. Just goes to show how strong attachments can be.
With metta,
Sabre
Lay and monks are both respected, if they practice. Humans are respected based on their personages, their heart and their warmth.
Those whom are suffering are often the hardest people to get along with.
In terms of Buddhist monks, for those whom practice, it is a fine tradition to provide and care for these people. It is a tradition laid down by the Buddha - in the Vinaya and in the dedicated service that many fine monks such as Ajahn Sumedho, Thich Nhat Hanh, the Dalai Lama and other Tibetan monks, Master Sheng Yen, Sasaki Roshi etc all came to fruition.
In the West we do not have such a strong tradition of dana, but I would not overlook it for those whom are within the Buddhist community. There is nothing wrong with supporting those carriers which serve practice.
And it is in those efforts that we show our gratitude because if they, they are grappling with the battle of Dharma. And it is also not an easy one. It is the same for the lay order amongst us.
We all choose our own lives and we can all evaluate what is and what is not. To broad brush any group, or any person even, might be a bit too much.
Best wishes,
Abu
http://www.buddhistische-gesellschaft-berlin.de/downloads/brokenbuddhanew.pdf
I remember skipping through this one before, not being impressed by what it had to say, so I don't feel it'll be worth my time to read it fully.
With metta,
Sabre
If we're going to pick out a profession to judge, I'd probably start with ruthless billionaire
On the point of billionaires I still cannot believe they valued Facebook at 100 billion. What is wrong with this world, man!?
Eek.
As for the rest of us non monks, we have to go work and provide and do what 'i think' is right..earn a living for my loved ones.
(and i dont spend my life in the rat race to get a 'little bit more money' i do it coz i have to.)
These days you cant get away with just leaving your wife and kids to search for enlightenment. You'd be hunted down and taken to court.
We have to take responsibility for our actions = fathering children, we have to either bring them up (cost money) or give them money to support them (again, cost money) etc etc.
So, it will be interesting.
I think it's potentially dangerous to put a value on nothing...because if you stop and think about it, Facebook isn't a physical product at all, and it's very open to whatever the next evolution is in that field. Look at Yahoo.
Monks can still "suffer" - they may have strong sexual desires while under celibacy vows, or strong feelings of anger towards someone they reside with, may still be attached to their family, etc. IMO, monastic life is to basically train oneself in the Dhamma with fewer "distractions." Some people stay home and play guitar all day to become legendary; others sit and meditate or study the Dhamma all day to see life as it really is.
It would be funny, if it weren't utterly sad, but a similar thing has come to light in Korea recently in videos released by a former monk. One can hope that this kind of stuff isn't epidemic within the life of the modern day Sangha, but in instances where it has occured it's kind of hard to ignore the senior rank of those involved, which in turn permitted it to go unchecked.
As for monastics not being part of the 'real' world (as if their world isn't real or productive in its own way), I find it interesting that the relatively modern concept of wage labour has so quickly become the only legitimate means of making a living in many people's eyes; and things like monasticism, which was once viewed as a noble profession/pursuit, is now looked down upon as something almost ignoble and essentially useless.
1. That the world is divisble -- everything makes up 'this' world. To be corny, you only exist because of your father and mother, you are only a husband because of a wife, you are only a layperson because there are monks. There IS no division in this world, every part is IT
2. That the world 'we' live in is real because WHOAH we have families and 'responsibilities' and we gotta 'pay bills'
But guess what? So do monks and nuns. They have responsibilities - penetrating the Dharma, supporting lay people who want to practice, offering a sanctuary and place for others to come and learn more about the Dharma, caring for each other, solving problems within the Sangha.
They also have to FEED all the people who come including themselves, and depending on the tradition they rely on alms or they have to earn this. For those whom rely on donations/alms such as Theravadin places they do not charge so it is only fair, you expect something for nothing but criticise them for accepting donations? The spirit is actually based on generosity, gratitude and respect if you can appreciate that. There is a lot of insecurity in that path also I imagine - no pension, no super, no career to fall back on - so I wouldn't just stand there and shun them for having it easy
As Thanissaro Bhikkhu once said of his teacher Ajahn Fung they had a poor monastery but Ajahn Fung was always joyful and didnt focus on that because he saw it as dana. Likewise, Ajahn Chah spoke of how he and fellow monks were almost starving, but they kept to their principles
I think the OP on the green is grasser on the other side groove, does not appreciate and understand that for practicing monasteries/monks they also share a difficult burden themself, but they are not on here casting us all (hopefully
3. The whole thread is too broad brushed, and I feel, shows little care or genuine understanding of the position of monks and nuns in this world.
I am not saying everyone deserves a whole lot of support, but to say that as a categorisation is far too much, in my opinion.
Abu
But that's just your choice and the choices you have made. Every minute is a choice, and you make it now, including the consequences of your actions.
It just sounds like negativity for people who have not chosen the path you choose, but I would not underestimate their challenges, fears and burdens also. It is not an easy path also and you can either support them, or at least not cast them with 'They are not living in the real world' brush.
The real world is this whole world. All conditioned things are conditional, just like in the olden day real world soldiers would have to go fight for God and country in order to earn money for their wives back home.
You choose that life, then it's a choice, it doesn't mean it's any more real than any other construction in this Universe.
Best wishes,
Abu
Probably, in many ways I think the whole financial world is a rich man's game and we play the poor paupers following and being manipulated.
Well it certainly looks like the way ahead is technology...but I also wonder how many people feel increasingly isolated. More connected, but more lonely? The world is at a materalistic peak and there do not seem to be that many genuine .. what's the word -- something deeper..people who offer something more deep and meaningful in peoples' lives. Certainly Buddhism has those shades for people whom practice but I am not sure for the large majority.
Anyway, thanks for that relay. Interesting and sigh, not unexpected.
Hope you are well
_/\_
My view is this: there is no sphere (human) where human dynamics is not in play. In the world of theater, with politicians, in the NGOs, in charities, in families, in family dynasties, in spiritual circles. There is no where that greed, hatred, delusion and igorance do not have their play ground.
ERGO there is no where, no place, no sphere (human wise) where Dharma cannot show its fruition. For the world of Dharma, the seeds are the dirt. Some people will use that to grow flowers of genuine beauty, and others cannot rise above the sh*t they create and are mired in. That part is called kamma
I personally do not have a glossy eyed view of Buddhism or Buddhist monks and nuns, but what I do support is that they are places of practice, designed for practice and laity and support. Therefore, for any genuine place of practice then they have my respect for it too is imbued with its many many challenges, and if such a place has the good fortune of genuine teachers-practitioners, then the boon is for this whole entire world. As for places of genuine corruption, I would steer clear.
Namaste,
Abu
The 'current' concept of working for the companies, to pay for the goods/services of more companies, to create debt to pay for more companies, to ensure work for more companies, to get pay from the company, is truly a McDonalds success story. Congratulations, materialism, you have made it to GOD.
Sad, and interesting.
On the bright side! :vimp: when has it ever not been thusly. Every civilisation thought that was the norm. We are paid and shackled to ensure we do not think further than this - fed and consume cheap social TV, low quality news that passes off as journalism, marketed with the new want and necessity, consumed with the energy to survive and feed our families, taught how to think and speak. We are like the old Romans from the Gladiator field who were plied with wine and bread to cheer on the slaughter of humans and beast. Of course every generation thinks they are not as dumb as that, but think again.
The only issue I have found therein (!!) is it takes a certain practice maturity, or just plain luck, to also be able to evaluate who is a good teacher or not. For example, if I remember the story correctly, it was reported that the first person Buddha was said to have spoken to after his Awakening walked away. He then preached to the next group
... i.e. if a person walks past a golden pot but does not see its value, then there is no value. Another sees a shattered jug, and thinks they have found gold.
So perhaps there is some luck at play as well. Or just the kammic connections working themselves through. Not to worry.
And (I) just hope there are more clear teachers out there to increase the odds and who will thence benefit this world more
_/\_
There is often a huge misconception when people think about monks/nuns, they think that they are lazy and all they do is sit around meditating all day. In the words of Ajahn Brahm, if you think it is so easy, go and try it for a few weeks.
@Tom --- Agreed, but the forest tradition is well known (and respected) for it's practices, no one has ever said that was "easy"