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Explain Ch'an.

PHennings12PHennings12
edited June 2012 in Philosophy
Explain Ch'an.

Comments

  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    Mu
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    Chinese Chán is a school of Mahāyāna Buddhism notable for its emphasis on Dharma practice and meditation, and is a precursor to Zen Buddhism. ;)
  • PHennings12PHennings12
    Mu
    Close. But not quite.
  • PHennings12PHennings12
    Chinese Chán is a school of Mahāyāna Buddhism notable for its emphasis on Dharma practice and meditation, and is a precursor to Zen Buddhism. ;)
    Yes. But not the type of answer that is being asked for.
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    what makes you believe you know better than we do?
  • ozenozen
    Generally people know better when they have greater experience or knowledge.
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    And sometime they think they do when they actually don't!

  • PHennings12PHennings12
    what makes you believe you know better than we do?
    Nothing makes me believe nor does anything make me know. There is no me. There is no better. There is no action. All there is is just the Ultimate Reality. You say "MU". But who is to say that "MU" is an answer to anything? You also never asked which Ch'an I'm talking about, whether I mean Ch'an for meditation, Ch'an for Buddhism, or Ch'an for enlightenment. But neither of them matter. For they are all the same.
  • LincLinc Site owner Detroit Moderator
    edited June 2012
    First, please contribute something more than 2 words to start a discussion. Do not put the onus on the commenter(s) to carry it. You need to bring something to the table when starting a discussion.

    Second, please take the time to compose a title to your discussions. Repeatedly using string of punctuation is not acceptable. This is getting ridiculous. (Edited both your discussions today)
  • genkakugenkaku Northampton, Mass. U.S.A. Veteran
    If you ask distracting questions, all you'll ever get is distracting answers.

    When I was a kid, my mother taught me a ditty:
    Oh, McCarthy is dead
    And McGinty don't know it.
    McGinty is dead
    And McCarthy don't know it.
    They're both together
    Upon the bed
    And neither one knows
    If the other is dead.
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    edited June 2012
    What is Ch'an is what is Ch'an.

    Seriously it is embrace of the absence.
  • PHennings12PHennings12
    First, please contribute something more than 2 words to start a discussion. Do not put the onus on the commenter(s) to carry it. You need to bring something to the table when starting a discussion.

    Second, please take the time to compose a title to your discussions. Repeatedly using string of punctuation is not acceptable. This is getting ridiculous. (Edited both your discussions today)
    First of all. I have made titles that are meaningful to the two other discussions. The one about silence is intended to be that way. The (.......) represents silence in cyberspace language. If you also haven't noticed I have made a discussion which is longer than two words.

    Ridiculousness is a perception. Not a reality. It is one's intention and action that should be monitored on this site. There is no poor intention on my part. I only seek to help others in achieving enlightenment and to bring about peace in their hearts. The fact that I didn't have a name for the title of this discussion should not be of extreme importance to you. I will agree that a title is needed but who is to say that a title is really that important?

    With regards to the onus. This is my way of talking individually to those who comment on the discussion I write. Who is to say that making a discussion is not bringing something to the table? Who is to say that more than two words is needed to start a discussion? Have a nice day and may you live with peace and happiness.

    Buddha.
  • howhow Veteran Veteran
    Dharma tag...
    Your it!
  • PHennings12PHennings12
    @Jeffrey has the best answer so far.
  • SileSile Veteran
    edited June 2012
    A wonderful and fascinating piece on Ch'an and tantra in Dunhuang - thesis being that the relationship between them (at the crossroads in Dunhuang) was originally fluid, creative and energetic, before they eventually withdrew into two separate traditions:

    http://www.scribd.com/doc/49721597/Where-Chan-Tantra-Meet-Tibetan-Syncretism-in-Dunhuang
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    edited June 2012
    @PHennings12 What is your explanation of chan? Will you grace us with your profound wisdom master PHennings12 and save us all from suffering? Please I beg this of you, wise master. Please teach us the way because we are just lost in ignorance. Can you guide us to Nirvana Lord PHennings12? :bowdown: :bowdown:

    :D
  • ozenozen
    If you ask distracting questions, all you'll ever get is distracting answers.
    The reactions are interesting I must say.
  • PrairieGhostPrairieGhost Veteran
    edited June 2012
    Let's not do the internet forum thing and mob outspoken newcomers, causing them to post recklessly and ultimately storm off without having expressed their useful ideas, which we all have. Give the man (or woman) space.
  • PHennings12PHennings12
    @seeker242 Ch'an is a block of wood. It is a hard boiled egg. It is a drop of water.
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    I don't like hard boiled eggs. Does that mean I don't like Ch'an?
  • PHennings12PHennings12
    @ozen that is part of the intention.
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    @seeker242 Ch'an is a block of wood. It is a hard boiled egg. It is a drop of water.
    But how can that be when a block of wood is just a block of wood and a hard boiled egg is just a hard boiled egg?

  • PHennings12PHennings12
    @Jeffrey No. The description is much deeper than what has just been said. Your perception is still in the realm of intellectualization.
  • SileSile Veteran
    From Hajime Nakamura's article, Ch'an and Mysticism in Later Times

    "Just as the final meaning of Ch'an is transmitted secretly to the disciple only in the master's room, so the Tantric formula must not be transmitted to those who have yet to be initiated into tantra. Thus, despite the fact that Ch'an was a popular movement rebelling against fixed, doctrinal traditions, because of its esoteric nature, in later times it gradually came to take on an aristocratic flavor.

    Ch'an claims a special lineage wherein the true spirit of Ch'an was transmitted from Mahākāśyapa, the great disciple of Śākyamuni . When Śākyamuni on Vulture Peak twirled and held up a flower, the entire assembly remained silent and nobody was found to respond to the Buddha's action except Mahākāśyapa, who, understanding its meaning, simply smiled. Thereupon Śākyamuni said, "Only he has received the truth of the treasury of the eye of True Reality, the wondrous mind of cessation, the absence of image that is the true image, the subtle, marvelous doctrine, the unwritten text, the special transmission apart from teaching."

    This account is not found in Indian Buddhism, but is a parable often recounted in Ch'an temples after the Sung dynasty as the basis for the founding of the Ch'an sect. It is a development of medieval thought: "The unwritten text and the secret transmission" became the Ch'an hallmark."

    http://www.jstor.org/stable/10.2307/30233349
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    No. I really don't like hard boiled eggs. That is not intellectual ;0)
  • zenmystezenmyste Veteran
    Explain Ch'an.
    This question could be translated to; ''What is Chan?''

    What is Chan?

    You have just answered the question.

    What 'is' chan?

    WHAT IS, CHAN? = WHAT IS, 'is' CHAN.

    Whatever ''is'' is infact Chan/Zen.

    x Goodluck all and Be well x
  • personperson Don't believe everything you think The liminal space Veteran
    Fart
  • ozenozen
    @ozen that is part of the intention.
    Clearly. Good luck!
  • PHennings12PHennings12
    @seeker242 @Jeffrey It's not that it "is" any of those things spoken. It means that your perceptions of what I have said are in the realm of intellectualization. Meaning you stick with describing your feelings of things and explaining what you know through words. What I am talking about is much deeper than what has been said. A block of wood, a drop of water, a hard boiled egg, they are all the same. To realize this is to experience Ch'an. Ch'an itself is unable to be described in words. All that can be said about it is what we experience with it. Movement and stillness. That is Ch'an. Breathing and not breathing. That is Ch'an. Thinking and not thinking. That is Ch'an. Experiencing and not experiencing. That is Ch'an. Living and dying. That is Ch'an. All that can be thought of and that can not be thought of is Ch'an.
  • PHennings12PHennings12
    edited June 2012
    @zenmyste Very nice answer! Simply put.
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    I didn't talk about my intellect or feelings. Ch'an is not caused. All of those three things you mentioned are caused. But nirvana has no cause.
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    Self-liberate from eggs. That is Ch'an.
  • PHennings12PHennings12
    I never said you informally. I meant formally. As in anyone. Not you specifically. I never said it was Nirvana. I never said it "was" them that are caused but that all that can be thought and not thought are Ch'an. Meaning all that is caused and not caused is Ch'an.
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    Upside down phone booths attract lions.

    Is that Ch'an?
  • PHennings12PHennings12
    Yes.
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    :rockon:
  • LincLinc Site owner Detroit Moderator
    edited June 2012
    who is to say that a title is really that important?
    Me, the website owner.
    Who is to say that making a discussion is not bringing something to the table? Who is to say that more than two words is needed to start a discussion?
    Me, the website owner.

    My requests were non-negotiable.
This discussion has been closed.