Zen: useless?

SattvaPaul

Ok, so there is this idea that sitting in zazen is just sitting. We're not trying to get anywhere. Sitting is just the expression of who we are.

But then, why sit? If we're already ourselves, sitting or not sitting - what's the difference?

Are we trying to become some sort of automaton?

It seems to me that to say "zazen is useless" is just some kind of trick, maybe to let go of expectation so that we can become more present. If Zen is useless, why take it up in the first place? I don't get it.

Dakini

I think the point is to remove expectations from the practice. Expectations can be distracting. They can snag the ego, too, as in,"I'm not making enough progress! I must be doing this all wrong, or I'm not good enough for this", or "Ah, I'm doing so well! I must have a gift for this!", and so forth.

zenff

Good questions! Sit with them.

zenmyste

Ok, so there is this idea that sitting in zazen is just sitting. We're not trying to get anywhere. Sitting is just the expression of who we are.

But then, why sit? If we're already ourselves, sitting or not sitting - what's the difference?

It seems to me that to say "zazen is useless" If Zen is useless, why take it up in the first place? I don't get it.

I think your getting zazen mixed up with 'shikantaza'
'shikantaza' is 'just sitting'
For me its completely different to 'zazen'

SattvaPaul

Ok, so there is this idea that sitting in zazen is just sitting. We're not trying to get anywhere. Sitting is just the expression of who we are.

But then, why sit? If we're already ourselves, sitting or not sitting - what's the difference?

It seems to me that to say "zazen is useless" If Zen is useless, why take it up in the first place? I don't get it.

I think your getting zazen mixed up with 'shikantaza'
'shikantaza' is 'just sitting'
For me its completely different to 'zazen'

What is zazen for you?

zenmyste

Ok, so there is this idea that sitting in zazen is just sitting. We're not trying to get anywhere. Sitting is just the expression of who we are.

But then, why sit? If we're already ourselves, sitting or not sitting - what's the difference?

It seems to me that to say "zazen is useless" If Zen is useless, why take it up in the first place? I don't get it.

I think your getting zazen mixed up with 'shikantaza'
'shikantaza' is 'just sitting'
For me its completely different to 'zazen'

What is zazen for you?

I suppose for me, 'zazen' is simply 'sitting meditation'.. when i sit in zazen i am performing an exercise to help clear my mind. Im doing something specific with my breath. (in other words i 'know' i am meditating, im doing 'for' a reason)

'Shikantaza' is a 'different' kind of mind practice.
For me, its 'just sitting' without directing the mind in any particular manner.

(So i guess you could say 'Zazen' is something i do to help me 'achieve' something. where-as 'Shikantaza' is what i do when i just want to 'chill' and 'just sit' or relax..

This is only 'my' thoughts on the practices though. Others might have different opinions..

x

zenmyste

The term 'shikantaza' literally means, "nothing but (shikan) precisely (ta) sitting (za)


But Zazen goes little deeper than 'just sitting'
(for me anyway) x

how

You guys clear your mind??

zenmyste

You guys clear your mind??

YEP!!

genkaku

The various practices of Buddhism have a long a storied tradition. Mirthless people are sometimes willing to say that tradition stretches all the way back to Shakyamuni Buddha. But a long and storied tradition and a couple of bucks will get you a bus ride.

If you like it, try it ... and see what happens.

If you don't like it, don't try it ... and see what happens.

PS. My understanding is that shikantaza is a way of practicing zazen, not something different from zazen.

ozen

I always thought that shikantaza meant that a girl can't aza.

zenmyste

My understanding is that shikantaza is a way of practicing zazen, not something different from zazen.

ur prob right.. x

SattvaPaul

My understanding is that shikantaza is a way of practicing zazen, not something different from zazen.

ur prob right.. x

Yes I meant it more in that sense, and in Dogen's "practice and enlightenment are one".

how

Never considered zazen for chillin, relaxing or or any directed intent. I thought that was what the kusaku was for.

SattvaPaul

Never?

how

Gee, again!, I wonder why all those postures straighten with just it's passing shadow.

SattvaPaul

So there's the stick but where's the carrot?

how

Not gettin smacked as a zendo lay about.
What Dogen, whom you just quoted, like to label as "sh*tbags stealing alms from the laity".

Tosh

You guys clear your mind??

YEP!!

How do you clear your mind? Mind has to be on something? The next time you sit, try not to think of onions; don't think of onions at all. Don't think of little onions, big onions, brown onions, big brown onions, or even those little silver skin onions.

And definitely don't think of pickled onions.

Report back your findings.

SattvaPaul

You guys clear your mind??

YEP!!

How do you clear your mind? Mind has to be on something? The next time you sit, try not to think of onions; don't think of onions at all. Don't think of little onions, big onions, brown onions, big brown onions, or even those little silver skin onions.

And definitely don't think of pickled onions.

Report back your findings.

Onion soup.

how

@Tosh
Zazen is not about trying to clear one's mind in zazen. It is relaxing into a full acceptance of the mind as it is.
Stopping fiddling with your mind will reveal it's own immaculacy.
Dam you.. You're making me sound all Zenny now!

zenmyste

You guys clear your mind??

YEP!!

How do you clear your mind? Mind has to be on something? The next time you sit, try not to think of onions; don't think of onions at all. Don't think of little onions, big onions, brown onions, big brown onions, or even those little silver skin onions.

And definitely don't think of pickled onions.

Report back your findings.

Im not a teacher so i wont even try to explain how

If im being honest , i am just good at clearing my mind. I dont know how. It just comes natural.
I can get to a state where no thoughts enter.. Not even the thought of no thought enters. Its just still..

(im not saying im doing anything great, im just saying i can get to a state where my mind becomes clear..

SattvaPaul

Not gettin smacked as a zendo lay about.
What Dogen, whom you just quoted, like to label as "sh*tbags stealing alms from the laity".

I'm not sure what's going on here, but I'm sure I wouldn't like to be smacked.

zenmyste

Zazen is not about trying to clear one's mind in zazen. It is relaxing into a full acceptance of the mind as it is

Different to different people..
Nothing wrong with sitting in zazen to clear ones mind.
Nothing wrong with sitting in zazen to practice acceptance.

Whatever one wants to do.
Whatever works for you..

Tosh

(im not saying im doing anything great, im just saying i can get to a state where my mind becomes clear..

I've experienced 'clear and awareness', usually after about half-an-hour of sitting for me, things really settle down. But mind is on the clarity and the awareness.

...Or mind is the clarity and awareness?

I'll just keep sitting!

SattvaPaul

(im not saying im doing anything great, im just saying i can get to a state where my mind becomes clear..

I've experienced 'clear and awareness', usually after about half-an-hour of sitting for me, things really settle down. But mind is on the clarity and the awareness.

...Or mind is the clarity and awareness?

I'll just keep sitting!

Don't think of onions! We don't want this thread to end up in Diets & Habits!

SattvaPaul

Zazen is not about trying to clear one's mind in zazen. It is relaxing into a full acceptance of the mind as it is

Different to different people..
Nothing wrong with sitting in zazen to clear ones mind.
Nothing wrong with sitting in zazen to practice acceptance.

Whatever one wants to do.
Whatever works for you..

There was something about polishing a brick..

how

@ zenmyste

I can get to a state where no thoughts enter.. Not even the thought of no thought enters. Its just still..
.


Thats called a trance. The totally opposite end of the meditative universe from
zazen. Not a problem if thats what you want but I wouldn't refer to it as Zen,

how

@SattvaPaul

I am sure with some students, a doan would have wished his Kyosaku was a brick!.

SattvaPaul

Autside the zendo, life can whack you with a stick or a brick on a pretty consistent basis.

AMH

You guys clear your mind??

You assume that I had anything worth hanging onto, I pretty much don't

seeker242

Ok, so there is this idea that sitting in zazen is just sitting. We're not trying to get anywhere. Sitting is just the expression of who we are.

But then, why sit? If we're already ourselves, sitting or not sitting - what's the difference?

Are we trying to become some sort of automaton?

No, we are allowing ignorance, greed and hate to dissipate by removing their support system. The act of "just sitting", itself, removes support from those things. This is a very good talk on this.

There is a famous story about Master Nan-yueh and his student, Ma-tsu. Upon finding Ma-tsu sitting intently in meditation, Nan-yueh picked up a piece of tile and began grinding it with a stone just outside Ma-tsu's hut.

Ma-tsu, somewhat annoyed, asked, "Why are you doing this?" Nan-yueh replied, "I am polishing the tile to make a mirror out of it."

In ancient times, mirrors were made of bronze and had to be regularly polished so that they would reflect. Ma-tsu said, "That's ridiculous, you can't make a mirror by polishing a piece of tile." To which Nan-yueh Huai-jang retorted sharply, "If you can't make a mirror by polishing a tile, how can you possibly become a Buddha by sitting in meditation?"

When we read such discourses on Chan, it seems that Buddhist tradition of the three disciplines - purity in observance of precepts of the Vinaya, and the cultivation of samadhi and wisdom through meditation - has been turned on its head. Does Chan really involve no practice or no discipline of any kind whatsoever? Yes, in certain respects Chan truly requires no learning, no practice, no effort whatsoever. If it did depend on such things, then it would not be Chan.

However, we are very active and artificial people, with far too many things to do. We must have discipline to help us put an end to deficient habits. For this reason it is not entirely correct to say that Chan involves no practice. There are indeed principles that must be followed.

Shen-hui, a disciple of the Sixth Patriarch Hui-neng, said that the precepts must be used to discipline one's actions. Likewise, recitation of Buddhist Sutras - especially the Diamond Sutra - and cultivation of samadhi should be used to eliminate defilements and calm our restless minds. Only then will the wisdom of no-thought that is inherent in one's original nature truly manifest.

What, then, are we to make of the assertion that "practice is no practice" or of the iconoclastic stories that we cited above? These teachings have real significance only for persons who have been immersed in the institutions of Chan training for a long time, or else persons of very unusual capacity. Indeed, the grinding of the tile had such a profound impact on Ma-tsu only because Ma-tsu had already dedicated so much time and effort to meditation. To any other person they might prove meaningless, if not downright misleading. For this reason, such stories - no matter how frivolous they may sound - must always be viewed within the solemn context of Chan training. To do otherwise is to seriously misrepresent Chan. ~Chan Master Sheng Yen http://www.westernchanfellowship.org/lib/wcf////prerequisites-for-chan-practice/

Smart guy this Sheng Yen fellow. Many people believe "Well, I don't ever have to do that because that is just "polishing a tile". This is the misleading part that he is talking about. If you actually want to get enlightenment, yes, you do have to do that.

taiyaki

Dogen asked the same question.

You find the answer through practice.

But I'll give you my take. Zazen is dropping mind and body by being fully in mind and body. Drop into what? The ceaseless activity of enlightenment.

The fan must be waved to know the essence, nature and function of wind.

DairyLama

And definitely don't think of pickled onions.

Mmm, pickled onions...{drool}

SattvaPaul

Dogen asked the same question.

You find the answer through practice.

But I'll give you my take. Zazen is dropping mind and body by being fully in mind and body. Drop into what? The ceaseless activity of enlightenment.

The fan must be waved to know the essence, nature and function of wind.

:thumbsup:

Songhill

The character sitting (坐) had special meaning for Hui-neng which had no relationship with posture.

"In this method, to sit means to be free from all obstacles, and externally not to allow thoughts to rise from the mind over any sphere of objects" (The Platform Scripture).

On the other hand, for Dogen, the posture is given more importance to the point where some Zen teachers insist that if you are not in the lotus or half lotus posture, you're not doing zazen.

driedleaf

When you just sit, you will see more than meets the eye or just more period.

Telly03

Zazen is the practice of awareness, of bringing your attention, or concentration, to the present moment­-this whole and complete moment--by bringing your awareness to your posture, your breathing, and your state of mind. The Vietnamese zen teacher, Thich Nhat Hanh, says, "We practice so that each moment of our life becomes real life." Actually, there is no other goal in zen practice but to engage fully in our essential being. You may find that as you practice zazen other things also happen, such as feeling more peaceful, or relaxed, or having lower blood pressure, or feeling more concentrated. The real practice of zen is to engage directly in reality, not to improve or manipulate our lives, or provide some pleasurable experience, although I think many of us approach meditation practice hoping it will help us in some way.

Many of the instructions for zen meditation are directed to the physical details of our posture. The culture that zen grew out of made much less distinction between the body and mind than our culture does. So, the idea is that by sitting with a straight back, and aligning our spine, and being still physically, this will support our mind in settling and becoming focused. This meditation posture developed in India; it's a yogic position. Zen meditation isn't something we do only with the mind. What we practice with is much wider than our conceptual thinking. In zen it is said that realization must penetrate our flesh and bones, extending to the tips of our hair and down into the marrow of our bones. In zen meditation, we use our body as an ally so that anything we experience, we can practice with.

by Taitaku Pat Phelan

Songhill

Zen master Hsu-yun writes:

"Ch'an [Zen] does not mean sitting (in meditation). The so-called Ch'an hall and the so-called Ch'an sitting are only provided for people (who encounter) insurmountable obstructions (of their own) and who are of shallow wisdom in this period of decadence (of the Dharma)."

DairyLama

The Vietnamese zen teacher, Thich Nhat Hanh, says, "We practice so that each moment of our life becomes real life."

Thich Nhat Hanh has written an interesting book called "Breathe, You Are Alive!: The Sutra on the Full Awareness of Breathing" which is a commentary on the Anapanasati Sutta ( sutra? ). I'm not sure whether this is the the same as zazen though?

Daozen

"Zazen practice is the direct expression of our true nature. Strictly speaking, for a human being, there is no other practice than this practice; there is no other way of life than this way of life."

Shunryu Suzuki
Zen Mind, Beginners Mind