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Clarifying Gendün Chöpel

SileSile Veteran
edited July 2012 in Philosophy
For the past several years or so, I've seen, scattered around the web, posts alleging that Tibetan tantras say 12-year-olds should be fed sweets to encourage them to engage in ritual, tantric sex. When pressed, the authors of these types of posts sometimes reveal that it is not an actual tantra they are citing, but the Tibetan author Gendün Chöpel, who wrote a love manual entitled, "Tibetan Arts of Love."

The sentence "cited" generally goes something like, "In addition he recommends feeding a twelve-year-old honey and sweets before ritual sexual intercourse (Chöpel, 1992, p. 177)."

I was somewhat surprised today to discover that Chöpel says nothing of the sort. The above phrase is taken not from Chöpel's work, but from the book, "The Shadow of the Dalai Lama," by Victor and Victoria Trimondi (real names Mariana and Herbert Röttgen).

What Chöpel actually describes is his view on the different stages of female development, and he says nothing in the passage "cited" about 12 year olds having sex, much less ritual sex. In fact he does not even refer here to full sexual intercourse until a woman is 26 (!), and concludes with the advice that "A woman over fifty should be respected with pleasure and honorific words. Her good advice should be asked for both the short and long term."

The way the Röttgens have twisted his refreshingly-equitable and somewhat charming observations on women into something horrible and filthy is completely ingenuine, and unfair, and I for one am ashamed to have taken this deceit at face value. For some time now I've avoided his works, thinking there was something wrong with him.

My apologies to Mr. Gendün Chöpel, and I now look forward to reading more of his commentaries.
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Comments

  • cazcaz Veteran United Kingdom Veteran
    Surprised ? The Trimodis are not a reputable source of Information for most things. Id suggest picking up a copy of Gedun Chopels Dharmapada ive very much enjoyed reading it :)
  • personperson Don't believe everything you think the liminal space Veteran
    About a year ago we had several threads going on at the same time with the Trimondis and Chopel as sources. After a bit of internet research I found that the passage you quoted was said to be Tantra but Chopel's book was a sex manual. That's comforting to know that the passage wasn't even in his book. In general I've heard positive things about Chopel and its nice to know that I don't have to hold my nose to read some of his stuff. Thanks. :thumbup:
  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    In his sex manual (an adaptation of the Kama Sutra), Chopel does give instructions on how to stimulate production of "the female seed" in a 12-year-old without damaging her genitals, i.e. without sexual penetration. Which would imply that 12-year olds were at some point in Tibet, used for ritual purposes that involved using female genital fluids. Chopel was the son of a Nyingma tantric practitioner, and a tulku himself (who later renounced his tulku status), so one can suppose that he was privy to certain initiation rituals, but there's no way to ever know for sure.

    The part about giving girls sweets or alcohol to entice them into sex rituals or render them compliant is in the text that covers the esoteric portion of the Kalachakra Tantra, as dictated to Geshe Ngawang Darghey by the Dalai Lama. I think it also mentions the preferred ages for the consorts or mudras.
  • SileSile Veteran
    Sadly, the above nonsense has been posted on many major Buddhist forums and websites, and judging from the reactions, accepted as truth or at least possible truth by many readers. Such is the power of unfounded rumor (at best) and purposeful disinformation (at worst). The Röttgens/Trimondis, and those purposely pushing their particular brand of black propaganda, have quite a lot to answer for.

    The question to me is: why? What do the Röttgens have to gain by purposely spreading disinformation about tantra, vajrayana, and Tibetans? Why is it so important to them, that they would risk putting something into print which can easily be disproven? It must be worth something--quite a lot of something--to risk such a thing, I would think.

    The followup question, then, is what do those spreading the Röttgens' disinformation have to gain? Have they just naively bought into it, or do some know better, or both?

    Important issues, I think.
  • SileSile Veteran
    @Dakini, your message came in as I was typing.

    According to a poster I have read, who in turn read Chopel's book, the bit about not harming the too-young brides was written to address the fact that some countries maintain a practice of marriage involving girls, and that it's important *not* to hurt them. I also read that it was not Chopel himself who stated that; I will try to find the reference (I'll be getting a copy of the book shortly).

    At any rate the reference in Chopel's book was *not* to ritual, tantric sex and had to do with how not do hurt a bride who in some countries is too young for sex. It is a sad fact that some countries practice such underage marriages; if an author or authors are looking to alleviate the potential pain caused by that sad fact, one can't immediately impune them without knowing more.
  • SileSile Veteran
    edited July 2012
    In his sex manual (an adaptation of the Kama Sutra), Chopel does give instructions on how to stimulate production of "the female seed" in a 12-year-old without damaging her genitals, i.e. without sexual penetration. Which would imply that 12-year olds were at some point in Tibet, used for ritual purposes that involved using female genital fluids. Chopel was the son of a Nyingma tantric practitioner, and a tulku himself (who later renounced his tulku status), so one can suppose that he was privy to certain initiation rituals, but there's no way to ever know for sure.

    The part about giving girls sweets or alcohol to entice them into sex rituals or render them compliant is in the text that covers the esoteric portion of the Kalachakra Tantra, as dictated to Geshe Ngawang Darghey by the Dalai Lama. I think it also mentions the preferred ages for the consorts or mudras.
    The passage I referenced, which in turn is the passage referenced by the Trimondis, had absolutely nothing to do with ritual sex; they cite Chopel as the source for this. If they mean to cite some other source--a tantra, or anything else--they should say so. But the fact is they cited Chopel as saying 12 year olds should be given sweets to entice them into ritual sex, and he absolutely does not say that in the passage they cite.

    Here is the summary I am referring to made by a reader who has the book--when I get the book myself, I'll chime in with what I've read, but here's another reader's comment:

    "Also the words "children can become injured in the sexual act" are not Chopel's - in the actual text, when I checked it, he was talking about young wives under the age of 16, in certain countries where they were married very young. I believe the author of the above quote deliberately misconstrues the original text to serve his or her agenda."

  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    @Dakini, your message came in as I was typing.

    According to a poster I have read, who in turn read Chopel's book, the bit about not harming the too-young brides was written to address the fact that some countries maintain a practice of marriage involving girls, and that it's important *not* to hurt them. I also read that it was not Chopel himself who stated that; I will try to find the reference (I'll be getting a copy of the book shortly).
    What's the reference to the fact that he was discussing brides? His book (I've read it) doesn't mention that. There's no mention at all as to what he was referring to or why he suggested a new technique for stimulating the "female seed", or why he was discussing trying to extract sexual fluid from a 12-year old at all. Maybe someone extrapolated that it had to do with young brides from the fact that Chopel took a lot of his material from the Kama Sutra, if that book deals with brides. He also has a passage in there on how to prepare 12-year-olds for first sex. No mention of why one might want or need to do that, though.

  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    edited July 2012
    It sounds like the part about offering sweets was mis-attributed to Chopel. But still, it's a bit of a shock for Western readers to come upon these passages involving sex with 12-year-old girls. Was it the custom in Tibet for 12-year olds to be given in marriage, or was that an Indian custom?

    Chopel seems to have become notorious among Westerners for that "Arts of Love" book. Most have no idea of his stature as an intellectual or of his revolutionary side. He's an intriguing character.
  • SileSile Veteran
    edited July 2012
    In his sex manual (an adaptation of the Kama Sutra), Chopel does give instructions on how to stimulate production of "the female seed" in a 12-year-old without damaging her genitals, i.e. without sexual penetration. Which would imply that 12-year olds were at some point in Tibet, used for ritual purposes that involved using female genital fluids.
    There is nothing I have read so far which mentions anything about ritual purposes. Chopel is clearly discussing common sex, pleasure for both partners, and how that is and is not achieved.

    He states exceptionally clearly the ideal stages of development of a woman, and twelve year olds are mentioned as specifically not engaging in intercourse. He in fact mentions intercourse for women (experiencing the pleasure of passion) first at age 26, and engaging in actions such as petting and so forth before that. Twelve year olds are not included in that part, and it is stated that they might enjoy hearing romantic stories, and that that is the limit of their sexual interest at such a young age.
  • SileSile Veteran
    edited July 2012
    The part about offering sweets was not misatrributed to Chopel; he absolutely mentions sweets, in the sense that for 12 year olds, sex is inappropriate and that at that age they are more interested in sharing sweets and perhaps romantic stories, but not any sex act whatsoever.

    It's really hideous that these very logical and healthy observations are twisted into utter untruths where he is somehow accused of telling people to "offer sweets to children to make them have ritual sex." Honestly, it makes me wonder about the mindset of those writing those hideous things, rather than wondering about Chopel's mind, which seems to me quite measured and relatively in line with what I myself believe.
  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    edited July 2012
    My recollection is he says that men aren't ready for sex until 26, but that women are ready much earlier, and that in fact, having sex at a very young age helps women mature, or something. He backs this up by saying that this is what Tibetan elders say. I think Jeffrey Hopkins discusses that in his introduction, as well.

    btw, you may have misunderstood my posts? I was saying he presented a technique for extracting sexual fluid from the girls without actually having sex with them, to avoid damage to their genitals. I posted a couple of times that there's nothing in the book that indicates this procedure of his is for ritual purposes, or for what purpose he's presenting it. But people seem to assume that it's for tantric ritual, that must be what you're picking up on around the internet.
  • SileSile Veteran
    I do wonder about the 26-year-old theme, lol, that seems to recur (he recommends it for women as well); in that sense, he is more conservative than I ;)
  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    edited July 2012
    Maybe the people writing that stuff are wondering why he's discussing extracting vaginal discharge from 12-year-olds...?

    (Geez, the stuff that comes up for discussion on Buddhist forums! :p )
  • SileSile Veteran
    edited July 2012
    Chopel does not say anything about producing female seed as a ritual act, as far as I have read. What he does say is that in cases where a bride is young, men should absolutely not have intercourse with them.

    It is a sad fact that many countries practice underage marriage, and it seems clear hear that Chopel is taking the groundbreaking (for these cultures) first steps in urging protection for brides who are too young for sex. This has absolutely nothing to do with tantra and "ritual sex," but is an admonition to husbands in these cultures to not hurt their brides. We may loathe the idea of underage marriage (I do), but to twist his attempt at protecting women into some kind of "guide to ritual child sex" is absurd.
  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    OK, now I'll have to see if I can find and check the book for the reference about brides. I don't remember brides being mentioned in that context at all.
  • SileSile Veteran
    edited July 2012
    Maybe the people writing that stuff are wondering why he's discussing extracting vaginal discharge from 12-year-olds...?

    (Geez, the stuff that comes up for discussion on Buddhist forums! :p )
    He's not talking about "extracting" anything, and I don't see anywhere in the text where it mentions seed from 12 year olds.

    He is saying that for brides who are not ready for sex--he does not list them as twelve year olds, but simply any bride who is not ready for sex--that she and her husband may have mutually pleasurable relations without intercourse.

    None of this has anything whatsoever to do with tantric practices as far as I have read; it is about husbands and wives.

  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    There's no mention anywhere in the book of tantric anything.

    Do you have the edition with the forward by Jeffrey Hopkins? Chopel does mention 12-year olds. Anyway, it's late, I'm not going to go look this up now.
  • SileSile Veteran
    edited July 2012
    Yes - he mentions that 12 year olds are not ready for sex. Page 177 (the same page cited by the Trimondis as "encouraging ritual sex by offering sweets to 12 year olds," an utter fallacy).

    And yes - the Hopkins-forwarded edition.
  • SileSile Veteran
    Here's a Google Books link; the pages you'll be able to view may vary according to viewer. I'll have the hard copy shortly, but after an afternoon of trying, page 177 finally came up for me tonight:

    http://books.google.com/books?id=zmxR93ZeSBMC&pg=PA171&source=gbs_toc_r&cad=4#v=onepage&q&f=false
  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    Get back to us when you have the book in hand. You'll see what it says about "generating the female seed" and 12-year olds.
  • howhow Veteran Veteran
    To an outsider's view, something seems very Ego based in this exchange where what should be an easy thing to clarify ends up being consistantly denied.
  • SileSile Veteran
    edited July 2012
    To an outsider's view, something seems very Ego based in this exchange where what should be an easy thing to clarify ends up being consistantly denied.
    I think it's difficult to clarify because of the way the bits of phrases have been patched together into an inaccurate "quilt" of meaning, as it were. It takes a while to separate the little quilt squares back out and see the original fabrics.

    I.e. 12 year olds are mentioned in the phrase cited, but not as having sex. Sex is mentioned in the passage cited, but not for 12 year olds. Sweets are mentioned, but not as an enticement for 12 year olds; and tantra isn't mentioned at all.

    All that has to be extracted from the Trimondi's claim that "Chopel says to offer 12 year olds sweets as an enticement for ritual tantric sex (p.177)."

  • SileSile Veteran
    edited July 2012
    As luck would have it, my university library carries the book - I have it in hand now, and there are absolutely no 12 year olds mentioned in the "churn about between her thighs" passage on page 135. That passage is simply advice to lovers that they should never "force" sex, because in younger relationships in particular, it can cause the female partner pain.

    There is no female seed mentioned in this passage, either, but many quoting the book have inserted "the female seed" as follows:

    "If it is not the time, and if copulation would be dangerous for her, churn about between her thighs and it [the female seed] will come out."

    Presumably people feel comfortable clarifying that it is her seed (i.e. pleasure) in question, given that the title of that particular chapter (7) is "Enhancing Female Pleasure."

    The entire chapter is about just that. Again, there are no ages mentioned in the above passage, but simply the phrase "if it is not the time."

    For Chopel's views on 12 year olds, then, we must rely on passages where he actually mentions them (p. 177), and he states clearly there, in a brief section titled "Stages," that the extent of the average 12 year old's interest in romance is limited to sharing sweets and telling stories. He states in addition that girls 13 through 25 may enjoy kissing, but doesn't mention full sex for women (giving them "the enjoyment of passion") until the age of 26.

    It is very clear that, according to Chopel, 12 year olds are not even ready to kiss each other, much less have sex.

    The book in general gives advice to lovers as to how to increase each other's pleasure, and is somewhat groundbreaking in the fact that it repeatedly emphasizes the importance of the woman's pleasure and women's rights in general, and criticizes extensively what the author sees as society's unfair treatment of women.

    "The hearts of both vibrate with passion; they look with flush faces free from shame." A wonderful book so far.
  • cazcaz Veteran United Kingdom Veteran
    Hmm perhaps someone should consider suing Mariana and Herbert Röttgen for publishing lies.
  • SileSile Veteran
    It's completely sad how widely this particular lie has been spread - I think I've seen it on nearly every Buddhist forum I've participated in, at some point. I'm only ashamed I never looked into it until now.
  • SattvaPaulSattvaPaul South Wales, UK Veteran
    It's great you took the time to look into it, @Sile.
  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    edited July 2012
    The bit about churning about between the thighs of a 12-year old has turned up in several books. I ran into it so many times, I finally bought Chopel's book to see it for myself (seeing is believing). Now I'll have to look it up again.

    here's a biography of the Trimondis. Notice Herbert R. publishes an article denouncing the radical left in the late 1970's, and turns to comparative religion and mysticism.
    http://www.trimondi.de/EN/biograph.html
  • JasonJason God Emperor Arrakis Moderator
    Jesus Christ, someone just post the relevant passage already. :banghead:
  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    Jesus Christ, someone just post the relevant passage already. :banghead:
    lol! If my copy were handy, I would have already, but it's packed away after a recent move.

  • JasonJason God Emperor Arrakis Moderator
    edited July 2012
    It's just a bit maddening reading an entire discussion where everyone's discussing a particular passage and what it may or may not say, let alone imply, without actually referencing the full passage in question. :p
  • SileSile Veteran
    edited July 2012
    Well, there are multiple passages which have been woven by the Trimondis into one (mis)reference. Generally they Frankenstein parts of passages on Chopel's page 177, and parts of passages on Chopel's page 135. I've given the link to p. 177 above already, but will type it here again if that helps:

    STAGES

    A female who is twelve years and younger is called a juvenile. She should be given combs, honey, pastries, etc. She should be told stories of the pleasures of kissing. A female who is twelve years and younger is called a juvenile. She should be given combs, honey, pastries, etc. She should be told stories of the pleasures of kissing.
    From thirteen through twenty-five she is called a youth; she should be kissed and pinched. Getting acquainted with men, she will experience joy.
    From twenty-six through fifty she is a mature woman. She should be told stories of passion and bitten and pinched and likewise should be given the enjoyment of passion.
    A woman over fifty should be respected with pleasure and honorific words. Her good advice should be asked for both the short and long term. (p. 177)


    Now before anyone gets all squirrelly about the pinching and biting, please read the smallish book in its entirety and understand the author is talking about gentle, pleasurable stuff. The entire point of the book is to improve intimate experiences for both partners, with very special attention paid, throughout, to the woman's pleasure and erogenous zones.

    From Chapter 7: Enhancing Female Pleasure

    If it is not the time, and if copulation would be dangerous for her, churn about between her thighs and it will come out. (p. 135)


    I can't actually tell if Chopel even wrote that part, because it's in Hopkins' introduction, which constitutes the first section of the book. But I believe the first section of the book is also by Chopel, just taken from other writings outside of "Treatise on Passion," which constitutes the second section of the book.

    Again, this is advice on how to pleasure a woman. The whole point is to do things which please her, and never do things that hurt her.

    I can give more of the above passage on Thursday when I'm back to work and have access to the library copy again; the Google Books preview won't show pages 18 to 162.

    In sum, it says that forcing sex is very dangerous for a young girl and should not be done as it causes pain. "Young girl" and "girl" are used throughout the book to refer to a wide age range of sexually mature partners, and in "Stages" he makes it clear that the ideal age for full intercourse is 26 and above.

    It's impossible to tell, then, whether he has some specific age range in mind when he says "girls" should never be forced by their partners, but at any rate, he says they should never be forced, which is fine by me, and as he makes it clear 12 year olds should not engage in sexual activity, we can at least say with certainty that 1) he is not talking about 12 year olds in this passage, 2) he is giving advice for the benefit of the female partner, and 3) it has nothing to do with tantra or ritual sex.









  • SileSile Veteran
    And now a final observation from Chopel, just for fun:

    By the husband's being too fast, it is said a
    woman will not experience sexual pleasure even
    once in three years. It would be good for a man
    who does not know thus the inner experience of
    his wife and life-long friend to be a hermit!


    On that humorous note, I shall retire for the night...happy 4th, for those of us inclined to blow things up tomorrow (er, today), and I owe any Brits here a few pints for, you know, all that 1776 stuff.
  • cazcaz Veteran United Kingdom Veteran
    I shall quote this thread whenever I hear lies about Gedun Chopel. :)
  • ThaoThao Veteran
    I ordered the book so will quote from it directly even though I can quote from it now. The fact is that it says "ritual" sex, not married. I can quote from another book, The Commentary of the Kalacakra by a lama who was sent to America by the Dalai Lama:

    "The point of this empowerment is to ripen the mind of the trainee. First, one imagines offering a girl, between the ages of 12 and 20, to the vajra master...The vase empowerment is actually given when the imagined girl comes back to the trainee who then enjoys her presence though laughing and fondling her breasts. Together with this, one offers the mandala and prayers to the vajra master and request the empowerments."

    If you notice this is just imagined, but later on in his book he says: The idea is that sex brings one enlightenment, but that you need a real consort in order to reach this enlightenment.

    "Lama Gedün Chöpel, explicitly warns that children can become injured during the sexual act: “Forcingly doing it with a young girl produces severe pains and wounds her genitalia. ... If it is not the time and if copulating would be dangerous for her, churn about between her thighs, and it [the female seed] will come out” (Chöpel, 1992, p. 135). In addition he recommends feeding a twelve-year-old honey and sweets before ritual sexual intercourse (Chöpel, 1992, p. 177)."


    "The Kalachakra Tantra urges the yogi to render the mudra pliant with intoxicating liquor: “Wine is essential for the wisdom consort [prajna]. ... Any mudra at all, even those who are still not willing, can be procured with drink” (Grünwedel, Kalacakra III, p. 147). It is only a small step from this to the use of direct force. There are also texts, which advise “that if a woman refuses sexual union she must be forced to do so” (Bhattacharyya, 1982, p. 125)."

    Bhattacharyya, N.N., History of the Tantric Religion, Manohar 1982.
    I own this book by Bhattacharyya if you want more quotes.


    "How does the yogi find a real, human mudra? Normally, she is delivered by his pupil. This is also true for the Kalachakra Tantra. “If one gives the enlightened teacher the prajna [mudra] as a gift,” proclaims Naropa, “the yoga is bliss” (Grünwedel, 1933, p. 117). If a 12- or 16-year-old girl cannot be found, a 20-year-old will suffice, advises another text, and continues, “One should offer his sister, daughter or wife to the ‘guru’”, then the more valuable the mudra is to the pupil, the more she serves as a gift for his master (Wayman, 1977, p. 320)."


    http://downthecrookedpath-meditation-gurus.blogspot.com/2011/07/what-is-in-kalachakra.html


  • personperson Don't believe everything you think the liminal space Veteran
    "Lama Gedün Chöpel, explicitly warns that children can become injured during the sexual act: “Forcingly doing it with a young girl produces severe pains and wounds her genitalia. ... If it is not the time and if copulating would be dangerous for her, churn about between her thighs, and it [the female seed] will come out” (Chöpel, 1992, p. 135). In addition he recommends feeding a twelve-year-old honey and sweets before ritual sexual intercourse (Chöpel, 1992, p. 177)."
    I think Sile has shown really well how this particular passage has been twisted and the last sentence has been added out of context to present a picture that Chopel didn't intend.

    So if this paragraph's meaning is twisted it seems like its necessary to take other things the Trimondi's say with a critical eye.
  • JasonJason God Emperor Arrakis Moderator
    Well, there are multiple passages which have been woven by the Trimondis into one (mis)reference. Generally they Frankenstein parts of passages on Chopel's page 177, and parts of passages on Chopel's page 135. I've given the link to p. 177 above already, but will type it here again if that helps:

    STAGES

    A female who is twelve years and younger is called a juvenile. She should be given combs, honey, pastries, etc. She should be told stories of the pleasures of kissing. A female who is twelve years and younger is called a juvenile. She should be given combs, honey, pastries, etc. She should be told stories of the pleasures of kissing.
    From thirteen through twenty-five she is called a youth; she should be kissed and pinched. Getting acquainted with men, she will experience joy.
    From twenty-six through fifty she is a mature woman. She should be told stories of passion and bitten and pinched and likewise should be given the enjoyment of passion.
    A woman over fifty should be respected with pleasure and honorific words. Her good advice should be asked for both the short and long term. (p. 177)


    Now before anyone gets all squirrelly about the pinching and biting, please read the smallish book in its entirety and understand the author is talking about gentle, pleasurable stuff. The entire point of the book is to improve intimate experiences for both partners, with very special attention paid, throughout, to the woman's pleasure and erogenous zones.

    From Chapter 7: Enhancing Female Pleasure

    If it is not the time, and if copulation would be dangerous for her, churn about between her thighs and it will come out. (p. 135)
    Personally, I think it'd be helpful if more of pages 135 and 177 were reproduced so that the context of these passages is made clear as well. They're still rather ambiguous on their own.
  • SileSile Veteran
    I ordered the book so will quote from it directly even though I can quote from it now. The fact is that it says "ritual" sex, not married. I can quote from another book, The Commentary of the Kalacakra by a lama who was sent to America by the Dalai Lama:
    That's not the book we're discussing here, @Thao - our book is "Tibetan Arts of Love," by Gendun Chopel, edited by Jeffrey Hopkins. It is a love manual for householders.

  • SileSile Veteran
    edited July 2012

    "Lama Gedün Chöpel, explicitly warns that children can become injured during the sexual act: “Forcingly doing it with a young girl produces severe pains and wounds her genitalia. ... If it is not the time and if copulating would be dangerous for her, churn about between her thighs, and it [the female seed] will come out” (Chöpel, 1992, p. 135). In addition he recommends feeding a twelve-year-old honey and sweets before ritual sexual intercourse (Chöpel, 1992, p. 177)."
    Gedun Chopel says nothing of "children" in his passages. He uses the term 'young girl' to refer to women of many ages. He does not recommend feeding a twelve year old anything for ritual intercourse; he does not recommend 12 year olds have intercourse. Your quotation is the misquote which is peddled by the Trimondis, as we were showing earlier. Chopel's passage does not included "the female seed" anywhere.
  • SileSile Veteran
    edited July 2012
    Personally, I think it'd be helpful if more of pages 135 and 177 were reproduced so that the context of these passages is made clear as well. They're still rather ambiguous on their own.
    The link I gave above gives much of the book, including all of p. 177. I don't want to reproduce passages that are too long, but I can put all of p. 177 safely, I think - the pages are not long.

    Here's the link again, for starters: http://books.google.com/books?id=zmxR93ZeSBMC&pg=PA171&source=gbs_toc_r&cad=4#v=onepage&q&f=false

  • SileSile Veteran
    Here's the remainder of p. 177 (it comes before "Stages" already given above):

    Types of Men and Women

    It is said that whatever woman has a mole on her right breast will give birth to many boys.
    If she has moles on both shoulders, she will have great power such that it will be difficult for any to suppress her.
    If she has a mole on her chest, her thought is bad. If she has a mole on her abdomen, her appetite is great.
    Whatever marks of virtue or fault have been explained with respect to the left side of a woman's body should be applied in reverse to the right side for men. However, these are not very trustworthy.

  • JasonJason God Emperor Arrakis Moderator
    edited July 2012


    The link I gave above gives much of the book, including all of p. 177. I don't want to reproduce passages that are too long, but I can put all of p. 177 safely, I think - the pages are not long.

    Here's the link again, for starters: http://books.google.com/books?id=zmxR93ZeSBMC&pg=PA171&source=gbs_toc_r&cad=4#v=onepage&q&f=false
    Page 135 isn't available, so I think having that would also be helpful since it's being referenced quite a bit as well.
  • ThaoThao Veteran
    The book I ordered was Tibetan art of love.

    it is the book we are discussing here, yes. but you are denying that young girls are used in the sexual rituals, and i am saying that even n.n.b. in his book, the history of tantra speaks of this. the blog entry is not from trimondis. the author said that it was written after reading the commentary of the kalacakra and n.n.b.'s books. not trimondi's.

    young boys and girls are used in tibet in the rituals. they are given to the monasteries. i can find all kinds of proof for what i am saying. even on a tibetan forum the people were talking about how girls when they grow up are no longer needed by the lamas, so they are turned out of the monasteries and many become prostitutes.

  • ThaoThao Veteran
    Prostitutes in Tibetan Monasteries, Nothing New
    Comment Board: Subject: Rinpoches and gold and prostitutes Aug 18 2005 05:34 AM
    ________________________________________

    This is true that our Rinpoches are eagerly raising funds to build bigger monasteries with golden Buddhas but with few monks. Even the monks are in robe by the day and found in the brothels by night. They are emulating Tsangyang Gyatso, the 6th Dalai Lama.

    There is something fundamentally wrong in Tibetan Buddhist system where they have tulkus and rinpoches who are spoiled rich kids who abuse the money of the dead and the devotees. Khyentse Norbu is an example making films and womanising around the world while enjoying the title of the great Khyentse Tulkus. Who is recognising these fools as tulkus? How many tulkus recognised by some highest lamas in the system are not keeping their vows but abusing money and wealth of the previous lama. If some of the money were spent on building schools and women's education that will be good. What is the religious dept in D-sala doing about this? They issue letter of recommendation to every little group for raising funds for this and for that. Look at the monks from Sera, Drepung Gaden and a nunnery from Kopan all who have become performers and artists. They publicly display mandalas and Tibetan nuns and monks come to dance in world theatres. All to raise money of course. How is the increasing number of monk and nuns performing from Gelukpa monasteries in Nepal and India going to keep the profile of Tsongkhapa's purity of vows and practice?

    I thought Gelukpas were the reformists and pure ones but now a days they are running around the world as gypsies. First they come as chanting monks and then they are dancing monks and then they are buying house monks, then they have become landlord monks. Their western nuns have become marriage celebrants; it is absurd that nuns become marriage celebrants. So this 21 century Buddhism in action, of course there are many that are good too. I can see why China is trying to highlight the quality monks rather than building huge numbers like an army. We need good and few monks, but they like numbers don't they, sera 5,500, Drepung 7,700 and so on. Of these how many young good looking boys are sex workers called 'dron-po' (guest) for older geshes and some of the rinpoches too? So do not blame the Chinese or poverty for the sex workers in Shigatse, Tibet had them all along within the monastic compounds. Go to Sera in South India, you will see happening. It is important to see one's own faults before one point finger to the other. The Chinese have brought many things to Tibet. List the all honestly. Tibet has many old mistakes and lists them too. Prostitutes are fact of life as is guest in the monasteries. Wake up!

    Posted here: http://www.phayul.com/news/discuss/view.aspx?id=10452#18000
  • VastmindVastmind Memphis, TN Veteran
    edited July 2012
    This thread has a sad tone for me since the beginning. Whether the question at hand was/is someone being lied about, young women being introduced to sex to early, physical marks w/ meaning/dependant on the other things ( moles), snacks described so 'romantically'. :(
    "Never let passion override compassion"

    In everyone's view/opinion, what is the intention behind this book?
    I havent read it. Havent decided If I will.
  • ThaoThao Veteran
    That post above came from the Tibetan website. If you don't believe me just follow the link, but you have to register to view.

    I think it is rather rude to be calling all of my posts posts by trimondi. I have read the books myself, and so it has nothing to do with Trimondis, but it proves that they are telling the truth about Tibetan Buddhism. Instead of just believing what the Tibetan Buddhists tell you, check it out for yourself.

    Buy these books, The Commentary of the Kalacakra--only found on Amazon
    The History of Tantra by N.N.Bhattacharyya
    and Tantrism, Its Secret Principles and Practices by Benjamin Walker

    Check it out and you will see that young girls are being used.
  • SileSile Veteran
    edited July 2012
    With all due respect, the discussion here is about Gendün Chöpel, and specifically the Hopkins-edited book "Tibetan Arts of Love," which discusses Chopel's writings on sex advice for householders, and clarifying that contrary to what the Trimondis say, this book says noting about feeding 12 year olds sweets to entice them into ritual sex nor anything about extracting female seed from 12 year olds for ritual purposes. The book absolutely, positively, says nothing of the sort.

    The whole point of the original post was to point that fact out, and right what to me seems to be a wrong--blatatly misciting the author Gendün Chöpel.

    Here is the entire book, in pdf form, from a Chinese website in HK. I encourage everyone to read it if they're at all interested, and it would probably be most ethical if we actually purchased a copy, too, since I'm not sure what kind of permissions are involved in reproducing it on the Chinese site:

    http://hk.plm.org.cn/e_book2011/xz-44017.pdf

    The book doesn't have a sad tone whatsoever--it is joyful, and celebratory of women, encouraging over and over again their equal status in society. There is enough sadness in the world - we don't have to invent any extra.

    It is true that the Trimondi's misciting of Chöpel has a sad, dirty tone, and that is the fiction I hope to correct here by pointing out what Chöpel actually wrote.

    I really hope we can keep this thread on that topic, and that if we want to discuss other authors and works, and get into the expected tantra-bashing, we can do it in a separate thread so that once again the author Gendün Chöpel does not become falsely associated with things which he did not write, and that if anyone has a problem with what he did write, we can talk about that specifically rather than confuse it with other works.
  • VastmindVastmind Memphis, TN Veteran
    @Sile, Thank-you. Will read! :)
  • SileSile Veteran
    You bet - I wish I'd found that earlier, would have saved a lot of effort as well as a hike to the library in 98 degrees ;) But it was good to see the book in "person," so to speak.

    I haven't checked the pdf against the physical book, but at first glance it looks like exactly the same book as Google Books has, and as the library has. I'll need to check each page to make sure nothing's been monkeyed with--this entire discussion is basically another lesson in the importance of checking primary sources, I think.
  • SileSile Veteran
    I should probably add that I'm not trying to convince anyone to like this book or this author - you may or may not find him as appealing as I now do; just wanted to erase the myth that he said anything about "sweets for 12 year olds to extract ritual seed" etc.
  • VastmindVastmind Memphis, TN Veteran
    @ Sile...I should probably add...lololol...I clicked on the link, but could'nt get it to download..

    my first thought.....my bad computer skills.
    my second thought.....wait, whats the lesson? it has to be a practice lesson. The ethical thing, remember?
    my third thought....I have every intention of ordering the book online.
    my fourth thought....guess it will be a few before I can read, come to
    my own conclusion, and come back and comment. (Ego) haha

    Watching thoughts, observing thoughts...whew...this is a full time job. :crazy:

    My last thought...craving and mindfullness is always the lesson.
This discussion has been closed.