Is there a point where killing something is kinder than letting it suffer?

karasti

I apologize if this discussion is somewhere, I couldn't find it. If it is, please send me the link?

This evening I was taking a bath. A biting insect landed on my arm, so I blew it off (using my breath) and instead of flying off like they normally do, it landed in the water. I used a small comb and lifted it out of the water and set it on the edge of the tub. After the water dripped off, it stood up and walked around, but didn't fly. I assumed that it's wings would dry and it would fly off. At some point the insect fell over and was laying on it's side unable to get up. I used the comb again to try to right it, and in the process it fell in the water again. When I took it out of the water the second time, 2 of it's legs fell off and it was apparent that it was not going to survive. I left it on the side of the tub to see what would happen, but I couldn't help but feel at that point it would have been kinder to kill it than to let it twitch and suffer. What does Buddhism think on this?

In a similar circumstance, when I was a teenager a car I was riding in hit a deer and broke 2 of it's legs. We had to wait for the cops to come, at which point they shot and killed the deer and the meat went to the food shelf. The deer was scared and in much pain, so it seems to me that the best solution was to kill it. Does the cop still incur karma for shooting the deer even though it was being put out of much suffering and misery?

genkaku

My own feeling is that karma, whatever it may be, is not a matter of racking up points. Each of us is responsible for actions taken. Good, bad or indifferent, still there is responsibility. It is the resistance to this responsibility that creates difficulty or 'bad karma.'

This is just my take. If I'm wrong, I guess I'll have to do my best to take responsibility.

taiyaki

Intention, action, dis/satisfaction from action.

Help put animal out of misery, kill it, satisfaction in helping.

Help put animal put of misery, kill it, dissatisfaction that the animal had to die and suffer.

Etc, etc, etc.

Just do your best.

Depends also on what tradition you follow. Mahayana is all about intention whereas Hinayana is all about vows/renoucing.

In Vajrayana you do what you have to do and live completely with the consequence.

karasti

Vajrayana Which is what I struggle with: which consequence might be worse, letting it suffer and die with no intervention or being responsible for killing it. I tend to think the latter is better because my first instinct is to say I'd rather be dead than suffering. But if I understand correctly, going through the suffering naturally (with as little intervention as possible) is what allows us the time hopefully to bring our mind to peace and ideally be able to practice Phowa. Granted, a mosquito is not likely to be doing any of those things.

taiyaki

Whatever your action is, fully feel with body and mind the consequences.

Then let it be. Guilt, shame, joy, fear, etc ate all fuel to open. Don't deny anything.

Thats my basic summary of vajrayana .

Vastmind

Then let it be. Guilt, shame, joy, fear, etc ate all fuel to open. Don't deny anything.

Thats my basic summary of vajrayana .

I agree!

zenmyste

Forget what buddhism thinks about it.

What do YOU think is right? - that's more important!

To me, its obvious, if an animal was in so much pain, and I could feel its pain, I would feel compassion and end its life!

Death is nivanna!
Finally at peace! = suffering ends for good!

(My opinion at least) x

karasti

@zenmyste and @taiyaki, thank you We actually discussed this at our group this morning, someone else commented that she had taken a vow against violence but was having a very hard time having compassion for mosquitos this year, and our teacher told a short story that when he first got started in Buddhism, he was a hunter who had a great deal of inner turmoil over his desire to hunt for his food, and his desire to follow Buddhism. He brought this up at a retreat he was at, and one of the monks at the retreat told him that you have to take every action and feel deeply about it, and be honest with yourself about how you feel. That is how you learn what/who you are and it makes the decisions much less confusing. Of course, I knew this on a logical level but hearing it told in this way made me understand it better. That's pretty much exactly what you said. In the case of our group leader, he attempted to hunt with that in mind and ended up giving it up along with meat eating completely because he knew it was what was right for him.

Dakini

The deer example is a good one. You could tell it was in a lot of pain, so of course it was more compassionate to kill it rather than drag out its suffering.

Buddhists eat meat. Buddhists also hunt. The Dalai Lama's oldest brother, who was a tulku at a monastery in Eastern Tibet, wrote that when he organized an expedition to Lhasa after his younger brother was named DL, he included hunters in the group to provide fresh meat for them on the months-long journey. His parents had a farm that included a flock of sheep, and they would slaughter a sheep from time to time for meat. So this issue seems to be very relative. When you need food, you wouldn't starve yourself to death just because there's an injunction against killing.

OP, we had a very long thread about killing mosquitos. A few members said they allow the mosquitos to go ahead and feed off them. The Dalai Lama has pointed out, though, that mosquitos carry malaria in his neck of the woods (and encephalitis in many other necks of the woods, including ours), so one has to be careful. He said sometimes he plays roulette and allows them to have their way. Other times he kills them. You can only do the best you can do. http://www.newbuddhist.com/discussion/382/killing-mosquitoes

I think prevention is best. Have screens on all your windows and doors. If a mosquito sneaks in, you can just blow it off with the breath, as you did. If a fly or bee gets in, you just catch it with a cup when it's on the window, slide it over a piece of paper underneath the cup, and open a window to release it.

If you get an ant or other infestation (the subject of another thread), there's no choice but to call the bug man.

taiyaki

Its all so human.

The shame and fear. The guilt. The compassion.

I used to kill spiders. Now i don't. Each part was necessary. Victim and killer.

We try our best and live with the actions we do.

There is no rules. But we try our best. That is being totally human. We must embrace boththe wrathful and peaceful energies within us.

how

Whatever your action is, fully feel with body and mind the consequences..

I like this statement!
The important part of this is always about your true motivation. Are you killing something because it feels like the best thing to do for all or are you really just not wanting to continue suffering being in the presence of someone else's pain. I am only suggesting the need to be brutally honest of ones real motives in the mercy killing situation.
I am reminded of the many times I've talked to people who are putting their ageing folks into rest homes so that they'll no longer have to worry over them. The concern for their parents real needs so often seems to have been trumped by their own. What on the exterior can often be presented as compassionate motivations can really just be the personal self serving interests of trying to find a way out of ones own uncomfortable situation.



If Karma paid any attention to our stories, the best story tellers could be Karma free.

KarunaDharmakaya

Yes

DairyLama

I am reminded of the many times I've talked to people who are putting their ageing folks into rest homes so that they'll no longer have to worry over them. The concern for their parents real needs so often seems to have been trumped by their own.

Good point. I think we have to be very honest with ourselves on issues like this.

karasti

We are going through this with my grandma, and while I agree to a point I think it's much more complex than you can imagine if you aren't dealing with it. The medical needs and personal care needs of an older or disabled person are quite extensive and sometimes the best thing for them, is to be somewhere where they can get the care they need around the clock. I think it would be ideal if families could take in grandparents/older parents like they did many years ago, but our society just doesn't allow for it I don't have the space, or the ability to provide the 24/7 care my grandma needs at this point in her life. I do agree that overall, many people seem to be selfish in making such decisions, but it's also likely not as easy as you might think it is. Just another area to be mindful when you are making the decisions, but not to judge when others make different decisions. I'm sure there are some in my family that think I'm being selfish in saying I am unable to provide the care she needs, but the time just isn't there, and when she doesn't have 24/7 care she suffers greatly.