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I don't think you lose points at all, not here anyhow. You aren't discounted for your opinion because of your age. I find you to be an intelligent and forthcoming young person. It just often takes a lot of experience to be able to see things from other points of view. That is very hard to do at your age, or even young adults just because of a lack of experience. It's hard to have a lot of truly free experiences when you are under the thumb of your parents. I wish you the very best, and I hope you find a way to communicate with them so that they understand you. It is most difficult, but also most rewarding, to be able to extend love and compassion to those who are problematic. They are your greatest teachers though. Take what you can learn from them, leave the rest. I have no doubt you'll be an upstanding adult one day, and a good parent. But you'll also make mistakes, it's inevitable.
Small children don't respond well to reason or logic when they have done something wrong, If they burn them selves they automatically know not to do such a thing again because it is painful, If they are spanked for doing things that are wrong they understand the message better then complex words and ideas such as wrong and right. As they get a older and have a greater capacity to understand right and wrong Dont need to be reinforced as much with physicality.
Of course they learn from burning themselves, but this is the same logic some parents use when purposely burning their children so they learn to stay away from fire. Does it have the intended effect of them learning not to do something? Sure. Is it the best way to teach that lesson? Gosh, I really don't think so. Some times pain is a natural consequence, but it doesn't mean it has to come from a parent. You don't have to be physical with someone just because they don't understand. Even very young kids are very good at picking up changes in facial expressions and voice tone, as well as body language. And kids who are treated with an expectation of apologizing and righting their wrongs, can learn this from a very wrong age.
When my son, who is 3, does something wrong, he gets a time out. Then he apologized and gives a hug. He usually picks up the wrong he did after 1-3 repetitions of the time out. If he does something more serious, the "CALVIN! NO!" in my voice stops him in his tracks immediately. Why? Because I don't spend all day yelling at him, using a harsh tone of voice and telling him no, over and over again. IMO, parents over use their harsh tones of voice, and over use the word no. They say no because they are lazy, not because it is necessary, and than the meaning of the word has no value to the child. You can say no to a child without using the word, and save it for when it's truly important to use. If my son says "Can I have a piece of candy?" I don't say "no". I say "It's almost dinner time, so let's have the candy later." or "How about if we have an apple instead?" or whatever. Turning things into a positive rather than constantly nagging negatives has a great impact on children. Changing just 1 or 2 words in your sentences can have a great impact.
We should try other things first, but sometimes nothing works quite like pain if it's administered correctly. I think society's actually gone downhill because people are afraid to spank their kids anymore even if they do something seriously wrong, and they don't do it in school... some kids' behaviors just won't get corrected in any other fashion (and most certainly if these trouble cases don't receive discipline they become trouble for all of us later on). We got spanked when we needed to be (me and my four brothers), and we certainly learned, but it didn't turn us violent. It has to be done right and done with love; abusive parents are something else.
It all depends on the approach, I think. Some people just make really mean and angry parents, and kids will be afraid if this is the case. Otherwise they'll just be afraid of doing wrong, without real fear of their parents.
I'd agree with this. On rare occasions, a spanking is probably called for, but note the word rare. And reasonable. And with counseling that makes it clear that inappropriate behavior creates karma, and that lessons must be learned.
I also really wish new/expecting parents would have some kind of counseling (perhaps free parental counseling for new parents?), rather than just relying on what their own parents taught them (which might be very harmful/abusive).
I also really wish new/expecting parents would have some kind of counseling (perhaps free parental counseling for new parents?), rather than just relying on what their own parents taught them (which might be very harmful/abusive).
People should at least be well-informed.
I agree with that. I was a Buddhist when having my first daughter, and came to the conclusion quickly that I had needed wisdom on babies. lolololol I searched high and low for such a class.
I ended up finding a Christian church that held one sponsered by a local hospital. It was series once a week, for 6 months. The fee was based on what our income was. I knew girls that also found classes in other places/locations also. They covered everything! From basic body care to dicipline options.
I said..".I was a Buddhist when having my first daughter,...."
I still am a Buddhist... I Just wanted to make the point of sometimes you have to search outside your circle to learn things you feel are important, especially for your development as a being.
It was the best experience I could have provided myself. I definetly suggest classes!
I don't agree with that. Why can't people see that your just fixing hurt with hurt? It's just like an eye for an eye. Spanking them then explaining why they got spanked is meaningless. I know I wouldn't say, "Okay, you should hurt me for that." "Children don't have any rights. Beat up an adult you get consequences. A parent beats up a kid, call it spanking. Spanking, beat, it's all the same to me." Children just don't have enough rights.
^^ I can only tell you that when, as a school principal, I would be told by a parent that they never spanked their child, it was usually a spoiled brat.
@Omar... Why cant we all see? Thats a tall order. I suggested the classes so we CAN 'see'.
The parent is probably thinking the same thing while spanking..."Why doesnt my child SEE what they are doing ?"
Humans resolve problems in all sorts of ways. Good and Bad. Seeing what works takes practice. It's good that you have decided early on that you will try other ways with your children...just try to rememeber....we all do the best with what we know at the time. Or as you put it, what we are able to SEE at the time.
Am I correct in assuming that you are staying out of trouble and avoiding these spankings? If so, you cant take on the problems of the whole community that you are around. Make your intention to avoid them, not to spank yours, and be an advocate whenever you feel right. After that, the rest is out of your control.
There is really nothing you have to see. Basically, someone says "Can you give less harsher penalties than spanking?" Most of the time the answer to the question is no. And that is truly sad, that parents disregard a child's feelings and hurts them. It's like telling someone you are my property and I'm going to raise how I want to. "spare the rod spoil the child" The harsh slave reality of parenting it seems.
I find it ridiculous to assume that all non-spanked children are brats because parents don't spank. Not spanking doesn't equate not parenting, or spoiling children. Also, you are judging *children* within an environment they probably mostly dislike without knowing even part of the story of their lives. As the Native American saying goes, walk a mile in my moccassins before you judge me. Kids are no different. This is an issue I get testy on, because my middle child is often judged as a "brat" when what it is, is that adults don't take the time to get to know him. They believe children should be seen and not heard, they believe children have a place and that it's under adults, and that any child behaving a certain way, is a brat. That is the farthest thing from the truth, and I would hope adults would have more sense not to judge children without knowing what they are talking about. He's not a brat, he's actually quite a loving, caring kid who has emotional disturbances at times and once people find that out and the reasoning for it, they feel like fools for judging him the way they did. He's not an exception. And the current state of our school system is hardly a fair place to judge anyone.
my middle child is often judged as a "brat" when what it is, is that adults don't take the time to get to know him. They believe children should be seen and not heard, they believe children have a place and that it's under adults, and that any child behaving a certain way, is a brat. That is the farthest thing from the truth, and I would hope adults would have more sense not to judge children without knowing what they are talking about. He's not a brat, he's actually quite a loving, caring kid who has emotional disturbances at times and once people find that out and the reasoning for it, they feel like fools for judging him the way they did. He's not an exception. And the current state of our school system is hardly a fair place to judge anyone.
No, it's not that we think that children should be seen and not heard, it's that we think children ought to behave when they are out in public. When I'm paying $20 for lunch or $30 for dinner in a restaurant, I don't think I should have to put up with some brat yelling, screaming, and throwing tantrums. When I pay $10 to go to a movie theater, and another $10-$15 for popcorn and a soda, I don't think someone's brat ought to be disturbing my enjoyment.
When I was in my 20's, I went back up home to visit my father, and he wanted to go to a restaurant where he and my mother had often taken me as a small child. The owner came over and made a big fuss because I was one of the few children he actually welcomed in his restaurant. Why? Because my parents had taught me to behave. Well enough that he remembered my father and me after over 20 years.
Your child can have all the emotional disturbances you want to tolerate...in your home. Enjoy it. But in public or in my home, he'd better behave.
And since you don't want to lump all children together, don't lump all schools together, either. My middle school had among the highest test scores in the state (so high that I was sent to be thanked by the governor), and the lowest suspension rate out of 26 middle schools in our system.
I wasn't talking about bad schools, I was talking about the system as a whole and it's goals. I don't agree with them, I'm allowed that opinion.
It is not his fault that his father died, and that certain times of year are harder for him to cope and he has difficulties sometimes. I can't exactly keep him home from school or locked in the house because he's having a hard time.
Overall, they do behave. They are kind, creative, very intelligent kids. They know their manners, they don't misbehave at stores or in restaurants or movies. Times when they've thrown a tantrum, it's been MY fault and I accepted that and removed them asap from the situation. I don't know why parents allow children to behave and just ignore them either. I don't like it, but I don't call the kids names or their parents. You just never know what is going on in their lives to cause the problem. I'm sure more than once people went home complaining about "this lady in the store, her kid started screaming! GOD why do people let their kids behave that way?" Well, my son has Asperger's and sensory integration disorder, and when he was young and we were learning how to deal with all of that, it was hard. And there were times he'd get overstimulated. Was it the fault of the shoppers? Of course not. But I couldn't exactly abandon our shopping cart when we needed groceries. I did the best I could, in trying to shop when I didn't have to brin ghim with, in trying to keep trips really short when he was with, etc. But you'd never know that when you are standing there looking at the kid who is having a meltdown, would you? It is horrifying knowing your child is suffering something you don't understand, and all you get from the people around you is dirty looks and judgement. If you've ever seen the movie Rainman? That is what my son was like when he was young. It was not his fault, and it didn't make me a bad parent, and it certainly didn't make him a spoiled brat who didn't know how to behave. If you don't know what is going on, then don't judge. You don't know what is going on in the kid's life, or the family's life, or just what their day has been like.
I wasn't talking about bad schools, I was talking about the system as a whole and it's goals. I don't agree with them, I'm allowed that opinion.
It is not his fault that his father died, and that certain times of year are harder for him to cope and he has difficulties sometimes. I can't exactly keep him home from school or locked in the house because he's having a hard time.
Overall, they do behave. They are kind, creative, very intelligent kids. They know their manners, they don't misbehave at stores or in restaurants or movies. Times when they've thrown a tantrum, it's been MY fault and I accepted that and removed them asap from the situation. I don't know why parents allow children to behave and just ignore them either. I don't like it, but I don't call the kids names or their parents. You just never know what is going on in their lives to cause the problem. I'm sure more than once people went home complaining about "this lady in the store, her kid started screaming! GOD why do people let their kids behave that way?" Well, my son has Asperger's and sensory integration disorder, and when he was young and we were learning how to deal with all of that, it was hard. And there were times he'd get overstimulated. Was it the fault of the shoppers? Of course not. But I couldn't exactly abandon our shopping cart when we needed groceries. I did the best I could, in trying to shop when I didn't have to brin ghim with, in trying to keep trips really short when he was with, etc. But you'd never know that when you are standing there looking at the kid who is having a meltdown, would you? It is horrifying knowing your child is suffering something you don't understand, and all you get from the people around you is dirty looks and judgement. If you've ever seen the movie Rainman? That is what my son was like when he was young. It was not his fault, and it didn't make me a bad parent, and it certainly didn't make him a spoiled brat who didn't know how to behave. If you don't know what is going on, then don't judge. You don't know what is going on in the kid's life, or the family's life, or just what their day has been like.
1. Yes, you are entitled to your opinion. So am I. So are others.
2. I'm very familiar with the conditions you mention. In my middle school the largest department of teachers was the special ed department. We had about every special ed condition you could think of, except for conditions that were so extreme that a student needed a totally special setting. Lots of Aspergers kids, most of whom were not in special ed classes. MMR, executive functioning deficit, autism, ED, MD, SLD, and many others. In fact, I won an award when I first became principal because I reversed the policies of previous principals who basically attempted to keep any moderate or severe special ed kids out of our school. I opened up the doors to all but those cases that were so severe that the kids were a risk to themselves and others.
But I don't think most of us are talking about special ed kids when we are talking about spanking. We're talking about badly behaved children.
@Vinlyn said...".But I don't think most of us are talking about special ed kids when we are talking about spanking. We're talking about badly behaved children."
If this isnt a blend of the two tales! My husband and I went out to a fancy-smancy dinner couple of weeks ago. We were seated next to a couple who had a small table in the corner with thier daughter making loud noises in her wheelchair. Obviously not controlable, just by her physical state. We watched as people got up, bec they were annoyed at her loud noises. We quickly had a whisper between us stating that the universe had thrown us a spin on our 'sexy' date. hahah. The next 50 mins were devine. Because we didnt want to talk over and couldnt hear, we sat silent. Looking in each other's eyes the whole time! Love Meditation, really.
Spanking special-ed children is never an option I would endorse!
I know that's not what you meant, @vinlyn, I just take issue with the judgment of all misbehaving kids being "brats." Even if they are misbehaving, it's more the fault of the parents than the children so I see no reason to name-call on children...regardless of the reason. I brought it up because many people have judged me and my children, making assuming "Wht doesn't she do something? If that was my kid I'd smack him!" comments behind my back, etc. Without having a clue what they are judging. Whatever someone wants to do with their kids, is their business. But try not to judge what you assume to be a "brat" when you might not know why they behave the way they do. It's humiliating to kids and to parents.
The Ho-Chunk people (a Native American tribe) have an interesting punishment; the uncles (they're the ones who mete out discipline) pour a small amount of cold water over the head of the offender. It's considered very shameful, and it works.
So very, very much of any discipline is about what leads up to it--if you are raised in a calm, quiet environment, or relatively calm, then in the rare event your mom says "NO!" you will immediately snap to attention, your blood will run cold, you will STOP
If you live in a noisy, undisciplined, "shouty" household, your mom's "NO!" will barely register.
Discipline is, imho, 99% what happens before any actual "discipline" moment. It's a good argument for maintaining a calmer household.
But I don't think most of us are talking about special ed kids when we are talking about spanking. We're talking about badly behaved children.
I'm talking about all children. And just to let you guys know, I've see special ed children get spanked and that is sad. Any kind of spanking is sad to me because that kind of corporal punishment has been used for really harsh things. Yet, people still use it on children and it does nothing but control a person with plain fear. Nothing else. But yes, parents are fine with that, as long as the child is quiet. Now, every body is saying kids today are messed up because some parents are questioning the power of spanking, when it's really not true. Why can't kids have a say in their punishment and not their parents? Why, because parents disregard their feelings and spank them, like they are slaves, with no feelings.
But I don't think most of us are talking about special ed kids when we are talking about spanking. We're talking about badly behaved children.
I'm talking about all children. And just to let you guys know, I've see special ed children get spanked and that is sad. Any kind of spanking is sad to me because that kind of corporal punishment has been used for really harsh things. Yet, people still use it on children and it does nothing but control a person with plain fear. Nothing else. But yes, parents are fine with that, as long as the child is quiet. Now, every body is saying kids today are messed up because some parents are questioning the power of spanking, when it's really not true. Why can't kids have a say in their punishment and not their parents? Why, because parents disregard their feelings and spank them, like they are slaves.
Where are you from?
I have to tell you that my experience with American teens (over 21,000 kids in my 33 years of teaching and administering) I've seen very few "slaves". That is unless "slaves" have every pop electronic device known to man, are often spoiled by their parents, are often given cars when they reach 16, many go to drinking and drug and sex parties beginning in middle school, talk back to their parents and other adults something awful, catch the mass transit to hang out on weekends in the cool parts of the city...well, I could go on. Calling the average American kid a "slave" is hyperbole.
That's not to say that all kids have it easy. And as a principal there were several times each year that I had to call Child Protective Services about child abuse. But considering we had about 1000 kids in my school, perhaps 3 referrals a year is not that drastic a number.
Why can't kids have a say in their punishment? Well, if they were wise enough to think through the whole punishment scenario, they'd be wise enough to avoid the need for punishment to begin with.
So, I guess you are a slave that has recently gotten into trouble resulting in punishment. What'd ya do? Oh, and since you're a slave, why are you on a computer spreading the word?
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personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
Hasn't giving time outs or some other form of non corporeal punishment been shown to be effective at modifying a child's behavior? IMO the threat of pain as a method of parenting is a tool used by those who don't have quality parenting knowledge.
Western society thinks that operant conditioning is the only way to raise children. Other people do it different. This past spring I went to a talk given by Arun Ghandi, and he told a story of how he was "punished" by his father. They were taught mindfulness from day 1, they kept charts of ways their choices on a daily basis had negative consequences. Basically, parents taught by example, not by exertion of force and control. The thought of that to most Western parents is absurd, but really when you look at it, it works quite well. Why we think we need to teach such lessons to condition children, I don't know. We don't subject our spouses or elderly to that kind of treatment. I learn things from my husband, he certainly doesn't punish me if I don't learn them correctly. Raising kids by example is THE best, and the most effective way to produce happy, well-adjusted and compassionate people. Unfortunately most parents talk to talk and can't even consider of walking the walk.
The story as told by Arun Ghandi was this: When Arun was a teenager, he was with his dad in India. They drove 17 miles into town. His dad went to a conference, and Arun was to take the car to the auto shop. He did so, and then went to a movie. He lost track of time, and was late in picking up his father. When he got the car and picked up his father, his father asked what had happened, as he was starting to worry. Arun lied, and his father knew it because his dad had already called the auto shop. He had told his dad the car shop was late in finishing the work. In our society, perhaps a kid would be spanked for lying. Perhaps they would be grounded from the car, or whatever. But Arun's dad was sad, and quiet, and all he said was "If you felt you had to lie to me, then clearly I have not taught you well. I must have time to think about what I can do to be a better parent. I will take this time by walking home the 17 miles to our house." He wouldn't be talked out of it, so Arun followed in the car, the whole time his father walked. That type of example, when coming from a parent who is deserving of respect, sets a far better example with the desired outcome, than a spanking.
Hasn't giving time outs or some other form of non corporeal punishment been shown to be effective at modifying a child's behavior? IMO the threat of pain as a method of parenting is a tool used by those who don't have quality parenting knowledge.
I have to tell you that my experience with American teens (over 21,000 kids in my 33 years of teaching and administering) I've seen very few "slaves". That is unless "slaves" have every pop electronic device known to man, are often spoiled by their parents, are often given cars when they reach 16, many go to drinking and drug and sex parties beginning in middle school, talk back to their parents and other adults something awful, catch the mass transit to hang out on weekends in the cool parts of the city...well, I could go on. Calling the average American kid a "slave" is hyperbole.
That's not to say that all kids have it easy. And as a principal there were several times each year that I had to call Child Protective Services about child abuse. But considering we had about 1000 kids in my school, perhaps 3 referrals a year is not that drastic a number.
Why can't kids have a say in their punishment? Well, if they were wise enough to think through the whole punishment scenario, they'd be wise enough to avoid the need for punishment to begin with.
So, I guess you are a slave that has recently gotten into trouble resulting in punishment. What'd ya do? Oh, and since you're a slave, why are you on a computer spreading the word?
What I meant by comparing some children to a slave is that spanking was used by the masters to control them. All of the other stuff you said, really has no effect in this discussion. I said before that I knew I would lose points in this discussion because I'm 15. I knew adults on here who support spanking, would call a kid that does not like it a troublesome person. When did I say I was a slave? Spanking is the method used to control slaves. I haven't been spank for years, but I see other people who do, and I don't like it. So kids can't have a say in their punishment because they are not wise? They are stupid? Wow.
I give my kids some input into their consequences. We don't really refer to it as punishment, just consequences for actions, both good and bad. Sometimes they actually have some good ideas that I haven't thought of. I try not to maintain a position of control over them, but rather as teammates working towards the same goals. We actually sit down as a family and we each have individual and family goals, and we help each other accomplish them. We run our family much like a business. I'd never slap or spank my employees (though I've had employees that are less mature than my children) because it's not an option, you have to find other ways to deal with problems, and I don't treat my children any differently.
What I meant by comparing some children to a slave is that spanking was used by the masters to control them. All of the other stuff you said, really has no effect in this discussion. I said before that I knew I would lose points in this discussion because I'm 15. I knew adults on here who support spanking, would call a kid that does not like it a troublesome person. When did I say I was a slave? Spanking is the method used to control slaves. I haven't been spank for years, but I see other people who do, and I don't like it. So kids can't have a say in their punishment because they are not wise? They are stupid? Wow.
Frankly, slaves were not "spanked". Whipped, beaten, murdered...yes.
Perhaps some kids can have a say...depending on their age and maturity.
I didn't say kids were stupid. I indicated they are often not wise. There's a tremendous difference.
Spanked, whipped, it's the same thing. If the slave disrespects the master, doesn't want to do work, pain is inflicted on them to make them do it. Just like with spanking children. You inflict pain on them when they disrespect you, or if they don't do their work. Spankings are given to a child by a hand, a whip, a belt, and any other thing that can hurt you. Do you know why children who are abused are not saved? Because all the parent has to do is make sure they don't leave a mark when spanking, then it is deemed to be okay. I know. I was abused and the only reason I escaped was that my aunt burned my hand.
Personally, I think (irrespective of Buddhism) spanking will only be destructive to your child's upbringing. There are modern, more effective and less cruel ways for people to discipline their child. Spanking will just establish the parent as a person to be feared, not respected or loved. On a Buddhist perspective, I think you're already aware of where spanking stands in terms of violence.
Comments
When my son, who is 3, does something wrong, he gets a time out. Then he apologized and gives a hug. He usually picks up the wrong he did after 1-3 repetitions of the time out. If he does something more serious, the "CALVIN! NO!" in my voice stops him in his tracks immediately. Why? Because I don't spend all day yelling at him, using a harsh tone of voice and telling him no, over and over again. IMO, parents over use their harsh tones of voice, and over use the word no. They say no because they are lazy, not because it is necessary, and than the meaning of the word has no value to the child. You can say no to a child without using the word, and save it for when it's truly important to use. If my son says "Can I have a piece of candy?" I don't say "no". I say "It's almost dinner time, so let's have the candy later." or "How about if we have an apple instead?" or whatever. Turning things into a positive rather than constantly nagging negatives has a great impact on children. Changing just 1 or 2 words in your sentences can have a great impact.
I also really wish new/expecting parents would have some kind of counseling (perhaps free parental counseling for new parents?), rather than just relying on what their own parents taught them (which might be very harmful/abusive).
People should at least be well-informed.
conclusion quickly that I had needed wisdom on babies. lolololol
I searched high and low for such a class.
I ended up finding a Christian church that held one sponsered
by a local hospital. It was series once a week, for 6 months. The fee was
based on what our income was. I knew girls that also found classes in other
places/locations also. They covered everything! From basic body care
to dicipline options.
I still am a Buddhist...
of sometimes you have to search outside your circle to learn things
you feel are important, especially for your development as a being.
It was the best experience I could have provided myself.
I definetly suggest classes!
"Children don't have any rights. Beat up an adult you get consequences. A parent beats up a kid, call it spanking. Spanking, beat, it's all the same to me."
Children just don't have enough rights.
I suggested the classes so we CAN 'see'.
The parent is probably thinking the same thing while spanking..."Why doesnt my
child SEE what they are doing ?"
Humans resolve problems in all sorts of ways. Good and Bad. Seeing what works
takes practice.
It's good that you have decided early on that you will try other ways
with your children...just try to rememeber....we all do the best with
what we know at the time. Or as you put it, what we are able to SEE at the time.
Am I correct in assuming that you are staying out of trouble and avoiding
these spankings? If so, you cant take on the problems of the whole community
that you are around. Make your intention to avoid them, not to spank yours, and
be an advocate whenever you feel right. After that, the rest is out
of your control.
"spare the rod spoil the child" The harsh slave reality of parenting it seems.
When I was in my 20's, I went back up home to visit my father, and he wanted to go to a restaurant where he and my mother had often taken me as a small child. The owner came over and made a big fuss because I was one of the few children he actually welcomed in his restaurant. Why? Because my parents had taught me to behave. Well enough that he remembered my father and me after over 20 years.
Your child can have all the emotional disturbances you want to tolerate...in your home. Enjoy it. But in public or in my home, he'd better behave.
And since you don't want to lump all children together, don't lump all schools together, either. My middle school had among the highest test scores in the state (so high that I was sent to be thanked by the governor), and the lowest suspension rate out of 26 middle schools in our system.
It is not his fault that his father died, and that certain times of year are harder for him to cope and he has difficulties sometimes. I can't exactly keep him home from school or locked in the house because he's having a hard time.
Overall, they do behave. They are kind, creative, very intelligent kids. They know their manners, they don't misbehave at stores or in restaurants or movies. Times when they've thrown a tantrum, it's been MY fault and I accepted that and removed them asap from the situation. I don't know why parents allow children to behave and just ignore them either. I don't like it, but I don't call the kids names or their parents. You just never know what is going on in their lives to cause the problem. I'm sure more than once people went home complaining about "this lady in the store, her kid started screaming! GOD why do people let their kids behave that way?" Well, my son has Asperger's and sensory integration disorder, and when he was young and we were learning how to deal with all of that, it was hard. And there were times he'd get overstimulated. Was it the fault of the shoppers? Of course not. But I couldn't exactly abandon our shopping cart when we needed groceries. I did the best I could, in trying to shop when I didn't have to brin ghim with, in trying to keep trips really short when he was with, etc. But you'd never know that when you are standing there looking at the kid who is having a meltdown, would you?
It is horrifying knowing your child is suffering something you don't understand, and all you get from the people around you is dirty looks and judgement. If you've ever seen the movie Rainman? That is what my son was like when he was young. It was not his fault, and it didn't make me a bad parent, and it certainly didn't make him a spoiled brat who didn't know how to behave. If you don't know what is going on, then don't judge. You don't know what is going on in the kid's life, or the family's life, or just what their day has been like.
2. I'm very familiar with the conditions you mention. In my middle school the largest department of teachers was the special ed department. We had about every special ed condition you could think of, except for conditions that were so extreme that a student needed a totally special setting. Lots of Aspergers kids, most of whom were not in special ed classes. MMR, executive functioning deficit, autism, ED, MD, SLD, and many others. In fact, I won an award when I first became principal because I reversed the policies of previous principals who basically attempted to keep any moderate or severe special ed kids out of our school. I opened up the doors to all but those cases that were so severe that the kids were a risk to themselves and others.
But I don't think most of us are talking about special ed kids when we are talking about spanking. We're talking about badly behaved children.
If this isnt a blend of the two tales!
My husband and I went out to a fancy-smancy dinner couple of weeks ago.
We were seated next to a couple who had a small table in the corner with thier
daughter making loud noises in her wheelchair. Obviously not controlable, just
by her physical state. We watched as people got up, bec they were annoyed at
her loud noises. We quickly had a whisper between us stating that the universe had
thrown us a spin on our 'sexy' date. hahah. The next 50 mins were devine.
Because we didnt want to talk over and couldnt hear, we sat silent. Looking
in each other's eyes the whole time! Love Meditation, really.
Spanking special-ed children is never an option I would endorse!
So very, very much of any discipline is about what leads up to it--if you are raised in a calm, quiet environment, or relatively calm, then in the rare event your mom says "NO!" you will immediately snap to attention, your blood will run cold, you will STOP
If you live in a noisy, undisciplined, "shouty" household, your mom's "NO!" will barely register.
Discipline is, imho, 99% what happens before any actual "discipline" moment. It's a good argument for maintaining a calmer household.
Where are you from?
I have to tell you that my experience with American teens (over 21,000 kids in my 33 years of teaching and administering) I've seen very few "slaves". That is unless "slaves" have every pop electronic device known to man, are often spoiled by their parents, are often given cars when they reach 16, many go to drinking and drug and sex parties beginning in middle school, talk back to their parents and other adults something awful, catch the mass transit to hang out on weekends in the cool parts of the city...well, I could go on. Calling the average American kid a "slave" is hyperbole.
That's not to say that all kids have it easy. And as a principal there were several times each year that I had to call Child Protective Services about child abuse. But considering we had about 1000 kids in my school, perhaps 3 referrals a year is not that drastic a number.
Why can't kids have a say in their punishment? Well, if they were wise enough to think through the whole punishment scenario, they'd be wise enough to avoid the need for punishment to begin with.
So, I guess you are a slave that has recently gotten into trouble resulting in punishment. What'd ya do? Oh, and since you're a slave, why are you on a computer spreading the word?
The story as told by Arun Ghandi was this:
When Arun was a teenager, he was with his dad in India. They drove 17 miles into town. His dad went to a conference, and Arun was to take the car to the auto shop. He did so, and then went to a movie. He lost track of time, and was late in picking up his father. When he got the car and picked up his father, his father asked what had happened, as he was starting to worry. Arun lied, and his father knew it because his dad had already called the auto shop. He had told his dad the car shop was late in finishing the work. In our society, perhaps a kid would be spanked for lying. Perhaps they would be grounded from the car, or whatever. But Arun's dad was sad, and quiet, and all he said was "If you felt you had to lie to me, then clearly I have not taught you well. I must have time to think about what I can do to be a better parent. I will take this time by walking home the 17 miles to our house." He wouldn't be talked out of it, so Arun followed in the car, the whole time his father walked. That type of example, when coming from a parent who is deserving of respect, sets a far better example with the desired outcome, than a spanking.
I also found this discussion took place here 7 years ago, the thread has numerous good points and links, and I found it worth reading through:
http://newbuddhist.com/discussion/717/would-buddha-teach-us-about-spanking-a-child
Perhaps some kids can have a say...depending on their age and maturity.
I didn't say kids were stupid. I indicated they are often not wise. There's a tremendous difference.
Wow.
I think spanking should be rare and not extreme. That's my right.