would someone who is enlightened still go to the pub with friends and party and go on holiday etc.

zenmyste

According to 'your' definition of enlightenment, would a that person still do 'fun' things with friends and family, would they party and dance all night long..

Would they go to football matches and support their team..

Would they book all inclusive holidays and sun bath in the sun..

Would jump in the pool naked with their friends for fun..

Would they enjoy gettin tickled..

Would they still go on a date if they fancied someone

Do they still fancy other people - lol

Would they still be wanted to achieve better career success

Would they still go gym to keep fit?

Would they eat chocolate cake on a friends birthday?

(Ok ill stop now, but you get the point..)

What's your opinion?
(Obviously unless you are enlightened, I understand you wouldn't exactly know, but still I would like to know 'your' opinions pls?

Songhill

Our Buddha-nature, right now, does not do any of the things you mentioned. However, almost everyone is unawakened to this effulgent nature. The life they lead, in fact, runs contrary to knowledge and vision of this nature. Overly attached to such a life, wallowing in it without restraint, ordinary people (prithagjana) undergo suffering (duhkha).

DairyLama

According to 'your' definition of enlightenment, would a that person still do 'fun' things with friends and family, would they party and dance all night long..

I don't do most of these things now, but that's because I'm a boring old fart I expect.

Ficus_religiosa

I don't think so. Craving for sensual pleasures is one of the ten chains which must be cut in order to reach enlightenment - and all your examples relate to sensuality or craving for pleasure.
On the other hand, I think an enlightened being would eat chocolate cake if offered so etc., not wanting to hurt the giver's feelings

Sile

You can be kind to people in all settings; wherever there are people, there is a chance to have meaningful interaction. It's not whether you're at a pub (or on vacation) that matters, but what kinds of interactions you're having there--what effect you're having on yourself and others.

If you're getting blind drunk, at some point your ability to benefit others drops; but even so, if you are providing a shoulder for a sad friend to lean on, you're being compassionate. If you're discussing somewhat meaningless gossip, you're probably not benefitting yourself or anyone much; if you're discussing how to save the world, and are coming up with real ideas that help someone in the future, then you're benefitting yourself and others.

Pub glory aside, if your friend is sad, and instead of taking them to a pub you take them somewhere quiet for an iced tea, you might benefit yourself and your friend even more, by having a healthier drink and a more restful environment.

Every activity has multiple choices within it, multiple causes and effects. Each one of those causes and effects can be negative or positive.

karasti

I don't think always participating in fun activities means you are craving pleasure. If all you can think about all year is that one week you'll spend on vacation, then yes, that's a problem. I don't think enlightened people are meant to never enjoy life in any fashion. I think certain things on the list could be a hinderence to practice, and because of that I think an enlightened person wouldn't participate in the same way as an average person would. But I think there is a difference between just experiencing pleasure and craving it.

For example I experience pleasure when I'm intimate with my husband. I don't spend time craving it and hoping for it, but I enjoy it when we're in the moment. I don't think the problem is in enjoying the moment. I think the problem is in wanting that moment to last forever and holding on to it wishing it would, and then looking back on it wishing one could go back. Looking at various masters (not saying they were enlightened) they certainly enjoyed parts of life. Even the Dalai Lama runs on a treadmill in his robes, lol. Keeping a fit body helps in keeping a fit mind. (fit being healthy)

genkaku

@zenmyste -- Your questions take me back a lot of years when I was first sniffing the edges of spiritual life. I hadn't yet thrown in my lot with 'those' people, but I was edging up on it. But as I edged closer, I realized that there were a couple of provisos I would put in place before I signed on. 1. I wanted to know, for myself and without leaning on anyone else, whether spiritual life were bullshit or not and 2. If, for some reason, spiritual endeavor was not at home in a barroom on Saturday night, I wanted no part of it.

Well, it's forty years later and I am content that spiritual effort meets both of my gruffly-stated provisos. This is not to say anyone else needs to espouse my point of view ... it was and remains my point of view. If I want to go to a bar (which, in general, I don't) I will go. In fact, I see no hindrance in going where I choose so long as I take the responsibility and offer the attention that spiritual endeavor has trained me to find appropriate to a happy life.

As stated, this is just my point of view.

Adopt it at your own peril.

RebeccaS

I don't see why you wouldn't do those things, but I think you'd be doing it for the benefit of others in some way. Like someone said above - they might be in the pub to be with a friend - that kind of thing. I don't think there's any selfishness left when you get up there, everything you do is for the benefit of other people.

It might look like they're doing the every day, selfish, pleasurable things that we do and want to do, but they're doing it for a whole different set of reasons.

Just my guess.

Or maybe wishful thinking. I do love a cold beer, I don't want to see myself not having one

Quandarius

Maybe it would be more to the point to ask you, the questioner: why do you ask these questions? Correct me if I am mistaken, but it seems that you like to engage in certain enjoyments/practices but fear that if you embrace Buddhism or any other spiritual path, these might become taboo and thereby you would feel deprived of happiness. Well, everyone has a different idea of what a happy life is. For one, I don't want to spend time in bars or even on all-inclusive holidays, but really, that's not because I am too refined or spiritual but just because I'm probably a boring person, having led a sheltered life when I was young, never had the money for holidays (you get the picture), etc. I discovered my own form of enjoyment, and can do without what many feel are indispensable pleasures. If you want to practise a spiritual way and you don't have a real, bona-fide guru to tell you what pleasures you ought to soft-pedal (or avoid altogether), then you need to do two things, surely. The first is to take yourself as you really are, warts and all, without trying to conform to what you think you ought to feel about certain things. This is very difficult, especially if you were brought up in a religion when you were very young. The second one is to read and ponder the teachings of the path you want to follow. Over time, this will bring changes in your outlook that you never could have imagined, and all without any help from you! Even simply living mindfully (whatever your activities are) will do this, but to add the reading of spiritual writings, and pondering them, will have an effect that is even more powerful. By spiritual I mean thoughtful, intelligent writings about life. Personally, I have always found many Buddhist sutras very dry, and they don't do much for me. However, over many years, I have read lots of religious, philosophical works (including books by Buddhists), and, overall, they have an effect on my mentality, even if their effect was not noticed at the time.

It seems to me that, for young folks, there is a danger of their feeling that they must conform to a pattern that is not really them, when they take up a religion of their own choosing. It can be very unhealthy to try to be mature before the time for maturity. That comes in its own time. If you like certain activities, don't pretend that you don't, but enjoy them mindfully. Always be honest with yourself.

By the way, I'm far from being wise, or holy (or even respectable). However, one is entitled to ponder matters, and have an angle on them.

vinlyn

I assume enlightened people would not break the Precepts.

taiyaki

No limitations.

vinlyn

No.

Jeffrey

They might be more interested in helping and teaching. The dalai lama doesn't invest in playing beach ball because his super talents can be better used elsewhere.

But stereo types aren't always correct.

Ficus_religiosa

I don't think always participating in fun activities means you are craving pleasure. If all you can think about all year is that one week you'll spend on vacation, then yes, that's a problem. I don't think enlightened people are meant to never enjoy life in any fashion. I think certain things on the list could be a hinderence to practice, and because of that I think an enlightened person wouldn't participate in the same way as an average person would. But I think there is a difference between just experiencing pleasure and craving it.

For example I experience pleasure when I'm intimate with my husband. I don't spend time craving it and hoping for it, but I enjoy it when we're in the moment. I don't think the problem is in enjoying the moment. I think the problem is in wanting that moment to last forever and holding on to it wishing it would, and then looking back on it wishing one could go back. Looking at various masters (not saying they were enlightened) they certainly enjoyed parts of life. Even the Dalai Lama runs on a treadmill in his robes, lol. Keeping a fit body helps in keeping a fit mind. (fit being healthy)

The enlightened being always in the same state of mind, does not nor does not not enjoy anything, as far as I reckon..
I would doubt the DL is enlightened, as he is just an educated man selected randomly from all possible Tibetan kids - some think he is a reincarnation of the former DL.
Lay buddhists, however, with "normal lives" (householders) can enjoy, feel bad etc., but as you say would try to train themselves not to crave and the like.

taiyaki

Zero limitations.

RebeccaS

I would doubt the DL is enlightened

Yeah, he says himself that he isn't. I love that picture though.

SattvaPaul

"There are a lot of people who feel that the proper way of following a spiritual discipline is by denying their simple humanity. They have become so suspicious of pleasure that they think there is actual value in being miserable: “I am a religious person so I shouldn't enjoy myself.” Although their aim is to achieve some form of eternal peace and happiness they make a point of denying themselves the everyday pleasures of life. They view these pleasures as obstacles, hindrances to spiritual development, and if they happen to experience a small amount of pleasure, they feel uncomfortable. They cannot even eat a piece of chocolate without thinking that they are sinful and greedy! Instead of accepting and enjoying such an experience for what it is, they tie themselves up in a knot of guilt and self-reproach: “While so many people in the world are starving and miserable, how dare I indulge myself in this way!”

But all such attitudes are completely mistaken. There is no reason at all to feel guilty about pleasure; this is just as mistaken as grasping onto passing pleasures and them to give us ultimate satisfaction. In fact, it is just another form of grasping, another way of locking ourselves into a limited view of who we are and what we can become. Such guilt is a perversion of spirituality, not a true spiritual attitude at all."

-- Lama Yeshe

vinlyn

Zero limitations.

I find it rather disturbing that an Buddhist would think that an enlightened person would rape, pillage, and murder at will.

federica

Oh good grief.....
:banghead:

ozen

Zero limitations.

Oh come on. An enlighten person can only drink so much before they're under the table.

RebeccaS

Zero limitations.

I find it rather disturbing that an Buddhist would think that an enlightened person would rape, pillage, and murder at will.

Nah, if an enlightened being does it it isn't rape, it's just a forceful kind of love.

@SattvaPaul that was awesome.

genkaku

Oh good grief.....
:banghead:

What she said!

SattvaPaul

Zero limitations.

I find it rather disturbing that an Buddhist would think that an enlightened person would rape, pillage, and murder at will.

Nah, if an enlightened being does it it isn't rape, it's just a forceful kind of love.

I can just hope you're joking (and I think it's a pretty bad joke).

Arthurbodhi

Is fun get 1 hour stuck in traffic to go to ride a stationary bike in a gym?

Actually I find this a good question: Is a enligthened being get bored him/her self?

I mean, why try to make fun (or weird) things if you never will get bored?

Cloud

Oh good grief.....
:banghead:

Seconded. Oh wait, make that "thirded".

RebeccaS

I can just hope you're joking (and I think it's a pretty bad joke).

Well you can just keep on hoping.

Don't take things so seriously

Cloud

That is a pretty bad joke though. Besides a fully enlightened being (or even mostly enlightened) has no sexual desire whatsoever. As odd as that sounds to us, it's not something we want being taken away but the "want" itself going away. That's much more peaceful. I wish I didn't still have those desires!

RebeccaS

It wasn't awful. Definitely within the realm of average but I don't know that it crosses the line into bad.

So, do they have no sexual desire, or no sex? I reckon you can have sex without desire, it would be love (because sex is a loving act) but any attachment.

I mean, you can let go of your attachment to books but still read, right?

SattvaPaul

I can just hope you're joking (and I think it's a pretty bad joke).

Well you can just keep on hoping.

Don't take things so seriously

Ok, maybe I didn't see the irony at first. There were people in the past that thought along similar lines and they took it quite seriously. Imperial Way Zen is an example. It is very, very easy to justify all sorts of behaviour as "crazy wisdom" or "no mind", imo.

how

@ zenmyste
Since you've got some zen in your handle here, do the ox herding teachings represent your view of it?????
How else would a boddhisatva be able to fit into the world without looking like a robot.?

RebeccaS

Ok, maybe I didn't see the irony at first. There were people in the past that thought along similar lines and they took it quite seriously. Imperial Way Zen is an example. It is very, very easy to justify all sorts of behaviour as "crazy wisdom" or "no mind", imo.

I don't know anything about that. It doesn't surprise me though.

Cloud

@RebeccaS, I think that at a certain point the root of sexual desire is severed, and so that desire no longer arises. If you have the desire to put your hand in a fire (ignorant of what fire does), and then you do... that desire will go away and not return, because you've fully penetrated the harm in that act.

Some people worry about the human species dying out if everyone were enlightened, but why is that? Because we crave for continued existence. That's part of our suffering. Humans will be around for a very long time I think, and enlightenment is still rare, but if we were enlightened and didn't want to continue the species that would be an act of wisdom. It's easy to be averse to the idea.

RebeccaS

@cloud Yeah but sex isn't like putting your hand in a fire. That's just painful and a bit stupid if you do it more than once.

But sex is great (not to put too fine a point on it) and though I see how it has the potential to be harmful because of, ego input I guess is one way to word it, the act itself isn't inherently harmful.

I mean, surely sex without desire is just an expression of love.

Cloud

In the end even pleasure is a mark of suffering. Takes a while to understand that.
We think suffering is suffering, and happiness is happiness, but even happiness is part of Samsara... we have to struggle for it, are in pain without it, and it never lasts. It just spins us round and round. Happiness always replaces suffering, and suffering always replaces happiness. The solution? Going beyond both. That's enlightenment.

SattvaPaul

You seem to equate pleasure with happiness. To me happiness would be like holding on to pleasure. But if there's no holding on? Is it not possible to experience pleasure and no suffering?

RebeccaS

Yeah, but if you're beyond it you can probably just take it or leave it. You wouldn't be looking for hookers or anything but if you have a wife you'll probably have a go now and then. And what if your wife isn't enlightened but she wanted it? You'd do it to make her happy.

And love is beyond pleasure, it's an aspect of the eternal and the divine. Sure, a physical act would be a fleeting expression of it, but isn't being enlightened in a physical body the exact same thing? A fleeting expression of the nature of the divine in the physical world where nothing lasts?

SattvaPaul

Yeah, but if you're beyond it you can probably just take it or leave it. You wouldn't be looking for hookers or anything but if you have a wife you'll probably have a go now and then. And what if your wife isn't enlightened but she wanted it? You'd do it to make her happy.

And love is beyond pleasure, it's an aspect of the eternal and the divine. Sure, a physical act would be a fleeting expression of it, but isn't being enlightened in a physical body the exact same thing? A fleeting expression of the nature of the divine in the physical world where nothing lasts?

*like*

Cloud

Buddhas don't act to make people happy, they act to alleviate suffering. In some of the older sutras it's pointed out the anagamis and arahants ("mostly" and "fully" enlightened, respectively) do not have sex. They just don't. If they don't, then there's really no point in arguing about whether they would, or why they would. An anagami is beyond living the householder life at all... they'll leave that life behind at that point.

There's nothing wrong with (appropriate) sexual conduct from a worldly perspective, but from an enlightened perspective there's plenty of harm seen in it, and so the mind detaches from any desire whatsoever to engage in that kind of activity.

That's really all I can say, and I didn't want to even be in this conversation in the first place (I agree with fede banging her head on the wall *so* much).

vinlyn

Zero limitations.

I find it rather disturbing that an Buddhist would think that an enlightened person would rape, pillage, and murder at will.

Nah, if an enlightened being does it it isn't rape, it's just a forceful kind of love.

I can just hope you're joking (and I think it's a pretty bad joke).

Taiyaki said zero limitations. I want to know if he actually means zero limitations. It appeared to me that he said it in response to me indicating I assumed an enlightened person would hold to the basic Precepts.

RebeccaS

There's nothing wrong with (appropriate) sexual conduct from a worldly perspective, but from an enlightened perspective there's plenty of harm seen in it, and so the mind detaches from any desire whatsoever to engage in that kind of activity.

I think you're totally wrong lol

Telly03

I'll worry about this stuff if I ever decide to become a Monk

Cloud

That's okay @RebeccaS. I'm not saying enlightened people discourage worldly people from (appropriate) sex, or say that it's wrong, they just wouldn't engage in it themselves because they see the world differently. Why would we worldlings see things the same way? We don't, that's why we're still suffering and not enlightened. It's kinda funny to even try and discuss it when there's no way to understand it if you simply don't understand Samsara the way they do. There are things that are simply beyond our perspective (at this point).

RebeccaS

I get what you're saying, and I get that they see the world differently, but I can't imagine for the life of me why they'd give up sex, the same way I don't see them giving up smoking (Maharaj) or cheese sandwiches.

So I guess we either go find a Buddha and ask him if he likes to touch the ladies or we'll wait till someone here gets enlightened and reports back. :buck:

Cloud

Conditioned phenomena is suffering. They're not craving for sex, they're not craving for children, they're not going to have sex just to give someone else temporary happiness (which is also suffering). The functioning of a buddha is to alleviate this suffering, not to indulge in it or create it. It is hard to understand, I agree. Our lives are based on an entirely different principle, that of craving (the cause of suffering). We don't understand it because we're ignorant of how reality is, which is really the reason that craving (and all the defilements of greed, hatred and delusion) can arise in the first place.

RebeccaS

What does craving have to do with it? Craving isn't a prerequisite to sex.

seeker242

I get what you're saying, and I get that they see the world differently, but I can't imagine for the life of me why they'd give up sex, the same way I don't see them giving up smoking (Maharaj) or cheese sandwiches.

So I guess we either go find a Buddha and ask him if he likes to touch the ladies or we'll wait till someone here gets enlightened and reports back. :buck:

We already have that. It's written right in the scriptures.

Bhikkhus, all this is burning! And what, Bhikkhus, is that All that is burning?
The eye, ear, nose, tongue, body and the mind is burning. All forms, sounds,
smells, flavours, touches, and mental states are also burning! Whatever kind
of consciousness of sense-contact is also burning! Any feeling arisen caused
by contact, whether pleasant, painful or neutral, that too is also burning...
Burning with what? I say: Burning with the fire of lust, hate and ignorance,
birth, ageing, death, sadness, disappointment, frustration, and Suffering!

Bhikkhus, there are joys of the flesh, there are joys not of this world, and
there are rapturous joys far beyond even such subtle unworldly joys ...
There is happiness of the flesh, there is a happiness not of this world, and
there is exquisite bliss far beyond even such subtle unworldly happiness!
There is indifference of the flesh, there is an Equanimity not of this world,
and there is a serenity far beyond even such subtle unworldly Equanimity!

A Buddha has no desire to touch the ladies. He has rapturous joys far beyond even such subtle unworldly joys, exquisite bliss far beyond even subtle unworldly happiness. Compared to that, joys of the flesh is like cuddling with dog poo!

Cloud

@seeker242 is right. The experience of jhana by itself is a pleasure greater than sex, one that come from detachment rather than attachment. A buddha is fully detached from identifying with the aggregates, and so this is a state of mind that wants nothing, needs nothing. Action is based on the conditions of the moment, there's no craving-based intention arising. Sex has a large pull on us worldlings, but isn't worth anything to a buddha.

Craving very much is a prerequisite for sex. You're going to crave it yourself or for someone else... why else would you do it, if not for craving? Craving is the origin of suffering. Now you might have the thought that you'd have sex to have children, but a buddha just sees this as creating more suffering. Being bound to life, instead of letting go. To a buddha there is no "self" or "other", there's not even "a buddha" other than as the conception of deluded mind. There are just conditioned phenomena, suffering and its cause, and liberation and the path leading there... so they turn the Wheel of Dharma, alleviating suffering.

RebeccaS

We could debate this forever I reckon, so I mean, I'm agreeing to disagree here. I reckon a Buddha would touch a boob here and there and I'm sticking to it.

Cloud

We'll agree to disagree, I agree.

seeker242

We could debate this forever I reckon, so I mean, I'm agreeing to disagree here. I reckon a Buddha would touch a boob here and there and I'm sticking to it.

I would say he had his share of boobs. I'm sure he touched many, many boobs. He did have a wife and a son, and many concubines probably. He probably touched hundred of boobs! But your life changes when you become a monk and get enlightenment.

pegembara

The Buddha having seen through the nature of the world has uprooted craving while the worldling would still be attracted to worldly things. The worldling would still be playing with sandcastles as it were.

"Just as when boys or girls are playing with little sand castles:[4] as long as they are not free from passion, desire, love, thirst, fever, & craving for those little sand castles, that's how long they have fun with those sand castles, enjoy them, treasure them, feel possessive of them. But when they become free from passion, desire, love, thirst, fever, & craving for those little sand castles, then they smash them, scatter them, demolish them with their hands or feet and make them unfit for play."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn23/sn23.002.than.html