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would someone who is enlightened still go to the pub with friends and party and go on holiday etc.
I think cloud has explained this well but another way of looking at it is.....
Happiness and sadness are just Ego tools. They are the Ego's carrot & stick that keeps us distracted from our real enslavement. Most folk live inside the ego's sandbox, trapped by a lifetimes conditioning that says only our happiness & sadness really matter. As long as one chooses to stay within the bounds of that sandbox, happiness and sadness make perfectly good sense as the real reasons to do anything.
Buddhist practise presents an alternative view. Meditation is just the process of no longer supporting the ego, showing us the illusory nature of our own confinement while leaving the egos tools (happiness & sadness) with little self to entangle.
From the view of self, happiness & sadness are intrinsic to our very existence. From meditation's view, they are a bubble in a stream, a phantasm, a dream.
The Buddha didn't say anything concrete on the subject really so it's all just guesswork.
As far I I can see, he spoke extensively about sense pleasures, which is any pleasure that comes from the six senses. Which of course includes sex pleasure. His teaching on it is pretty clearly stated. But like I said before, there is a different teaching for monks and laypersons.
"There are five strands of sense desire. What are these five? Forms cognizable by the eye that are wished for, desirable, agreeable and endearing, bound up with sensual desire and tempting to lust. Sounds cognizable by the ear... odors cognizable by the nose... flavors cognizable by the tongue... tangibles cognizable by the body, that are wished for, desirable, agreeable and endearing, bound up with sense desire, and tempting to lust. These are the five strands of sense desire. The pleasure and joy arising dependent on these five strands of sense desire, that is called sensual pleasure.
"Now, if someone were to say: 'This is the highest pleasure and joy that can be experienced,' I would not concede that. And why not? Because there is another kind of pleasure which surpasses that pleasure and is more sublime. And what is this pleasure? Here, quite secluded from sensual desires, secluded from unwholesome states of mind, a monk enters upon and abides in the first meditative absorption (jhana), which is accompanied by thought conception and discursive thinking and has in it joy and pleasure born of seclusion. This is the other kind of pleasure which surpasses that (sense) pleasure and is more sublime.
Yeah but all he is saying is that there are better things than sex.
There are better foods out there, but I don't always eat steak. Sometimes I just nip to McDonalds.
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DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
It saddens me that many think being happy for others is a trap within ego. That those of us that are able to choose happiness without chasing some rainbow are deluded.
The Dalai Lama chooses to be happy. Thich Nhat Hanh chooses to be happy.
It sounds like such a cliché to say that most of what we’re seeking is already within us, but nonetheless, it’s true.
Happiness doesn’t only exist in some perfect tomorrow when our circumstances look ideal. It’s a moment-to-moment choice that has to do with how we perceive and respond to what’s in front of us. We can choose happiness right now.
Peace doesn’t only exist in some time without obstacles or troubles. It’s something we can feel by accepting what is, doing our best, and believing that’s good enough. We can choose peace right now.
Love doesn’t only exist in a storybook relationship with the perfect person. It’s something we can nurture within ourselves in any moment and then share with the people and the world around us. We can choose love right now.
Success doesn’t only exist in epic achievement, some day down the road. It’s what we feel when we honor the things that matter to us instead of making excuses why we can’t. We can choose success right now.
We can choose what we think. We can choose what we believe. We can choose how we react. We can choose how we act.
This moment is all there is—and while we can’t control everything about it, we can choose who we are and what we do within it.
What do you choose right now?
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"If you can free yourself from your sorrows concerning the past and your fearfulness concerning the future, if you know how to go home to the present moment and get free, then you can penetrate into the Pure Land of the Buddha. And happiness becomes possible right here and right now."
-- Thich Nhat Hanh
This is no lie or delusion.
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DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
Seeking happiness and simply choosing it are two very different things.
From the view of self, happiness & sadness are intrinsic to our very existence. From meditation's view, they are a bubble in a stream, a phantasm, a dream.
Then what exactly is the purpose of meditation if not to promote loving kindness and well being?
Happiness is a choice. It is really as simple as that. It isn't something that needs to be acheived, we can be happy any time we want despite suffering. All we have to do is choose it. That we can make that choice seems to be obscured to many but it is the truth nonetheless.
Tell that to people who are in a depression or for some other reason are having a hard time.
For those who trained their mind, happiness is a choice. They can create joy out of nowhere. But this is not for everybody.
And even then clinging to happiness is holding back even greater happiness.
J Happiness is a choice. It is really as simple as that. It isn't something that needs to be acheived, we can be happy any time we want despite suffering. All we have to do is choose it. That we can make that choice seems to be obscured to many but it is the truth nonetheless.
Tell that to people who are in a depression or for some other reason are having a hard time.
True, but they can choose to get medication or therapy, choosing to improve their chances of happiness...
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DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
edited July 2012
Happiness is a choice. It is really as simple as that. It isn't something that needs to be acheived, we can be happy any time we want despite suffering. All we have to do is choose it. That we can make that choice seems to be obscured to many but it is the truth nonetheless.
Tell that to people who are in a depression or for some other reason are having a hard time.
I do. Not only that but I am living proof. Who doesn't have a hard time every now and then?
It's my wifes birthday today and I'm going to the mountain here to our favorite lookout bench to spread some of her ashes. One of the surest ways to feel depression is watching your loved one die from cancer.
Sure depression can be a trap but there is only one person that can get us out of it. I'm sure you can guess who I mean. The only thing is, a choice must be made.
For those who trained their mind, happiness is a choice. They can create joy out of nowhere. But this is not for everybody.
Sure it is if they train their mind.
And even then clinging to happiness is holding back even greater happiness.
Clinging to happiness is not the same as simply being happy despite the outer circumstance. One is graceful and one reeks of effort.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
....I mean, you seem very sure of yourself, to the point of being a bit of an ass about it, ...
Manners, please. As you're such a newbie, It's objectionable that you speak to established members in this way. In fact, we ask that members be respectful, regardless....
She would probably still want to touch your rude parts though.
Why are they 'rude'?
If my husband hit Nirvana and I didn't, yeah, I'd want him to show me the way and everything, but I'd still want to see him naked now and then.
That's you grasping an illusory concept. you might care, he wouldn't give a fiddler's fret-rubber.
....I mean, you seem very sure of yourself, to the point of being a bit of an ass about it, ...
Manners, please. As you're such a newbie, It's objectionable that you speak to established members in this way. In fact, we ask that members be respectful, regardless....
Just calling a spade a spade Posting on an anonymous internet forum for a longer time than another doesn't magically make you less of an ass. I may be wrong about it, and maybe they didn't intend to be an ass, and if that's the case then I'm sorry, but if you ask me there was an assness to the remark.
Maybe "rude" would have been a better word, but we're ok with swears in my house and in the spirit of not putting on an internet persona I try to type like I actually speak. I'll call it something less sweary next time in the interest of accommodating those of a more delicate disposition
She would probably still want to touch your rude parts though.
Why are they 'rude'?
It's just a nicer word than genitalia. Perhaps less correct, but the essence of what I meant is pretty clear. You obviously know what I was referring to so the point was still communicated effectively.
If my husband hit Nirvana and I didn't, yeah, I'd want him to show me the way and everything, but I'd still want to see him naked now and then.
That's you grasping an illusory concept. you might care, he wouldn't give a fiddler's fret-rubber.
Yeah, but he'd care about my well being and happiness, and given that we're married and that there's nothing wrong with intercourse within a marriage, surely he'd be happy to oblige?
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
No, I doubt it. Because that would be conceding to an illusory, and frankly pointless exercise. It's not about keeping you happy. you are the one who wants to keep you happy. He's already happy. He leads by example, not by doing something pointless just to accommodate a person still living under illusory misconceptions. If you want to grasp and maintain a carnal interest, that's your problem. He's no longer attached to that, and as such would abstain. That would be true to his Enlightened mind, not true to your deluded one. I don't recall any mention of the Buddha going back to bed with his wife, once he returned to the palace....
No, I doubt it. Because that would be conceding to an illusory, and frankly pointless exercise. It's not about keeping you happy. you are the one who wants to keep you happy. He's already happy. He leads by example, not by doing something pointless just to accommodate a person still living under illusory misconceptions.
That's a really good point. Someone in another thread was talking about an addiction, and how enabling is detrimental to the person suffering. So that makes sense to me.
But that also leads me to get into the mindset that sex has to be related to suffering, and I'm not sure that it does.
If you want to grasp and maintain a carnal interest, that's your problem. He's no longer attached to that, and as such would abstain. That would be true to his Enlightened mind, not true to your deluded one. I don't recall any mention of the Buddha going back to bed with his wife, once he returned to the palace....
Well... It's not like college where you ring a bell when you get lucky
You guys probably think I'm being facetious in labouring this point, but I'm really not convinced. I may not be as wise as you, and I'm definitely not as learned in the ways of Buddhism, and I may be a "newbie", but what I do know is that Buddhism has taught me is to not take anything on faith, or just believe anything. That I should question it all and compare to my own experience and common sense and find the truth for myself.
My own experience tells me that sex isn't bad, and that while it has the potential to cause suffering, it doesn't have to be that way.
And my own common sense tells me that there is not any actual reason why a Buddha would give up sex, unless he was celibate in the first place.
I mean, a Buddha who loved steak when he was a man will still probably continue to choose steak if it's on the menu, he won't opt for the grain salad all of a sudden.
That's just how I see it.
Of course I might be wrong, but unless I see something that really convinces me otherwise I doubt I'm going to change my position. Not out of stubbornness, but out of being true to my experience.
True, but they can choose to get medication or therapy, choosing to improve their chances of happiness...
I do. Not only that but I am living proof. Who doesn't have a hard time every now and then?
I know some people who try their very best but can't be just freely happy, content. So it's not a free choice. Or what about people who have no house? Or not enough food and water? Can they really just choose to be happy with it?
Also everybody will have some unhappiness in their lives that they can't just wipe out instantly. That's just a part of life itself. So I take back what I said about happiness being a choice for those who trained their mind. I think it is actually better to say happiness is a skill instead of a choice.
I know some people who try their very best but can't be just freely happy, content. So it's not a free choice. Or what about people who have no house? Or not enough food and water? Can they really just choose to be happy with it?
I've met happy homeless people. It's not that they're happy because of it, they're happy in spite of it.
I'm not disagreeing with what you're saying, I'm just trying to add some more context.
I know some people who try their very best but can't be just freely happy, content. So it's not a free choice. Or what about people who have no house? Or not enough food and water? Can they really just choose to be happy with it?
I've met happy homeless people. It's not that they're happy because of it, they're happy in spite of it.
I'm not disagreeing with what you're saying, I'm just trying to add some more context.
To some extent I agree with you, Rebecca. In fact, the first thing that attracted me to Buddhism was exploring Thailand and finding that the vast majority of people even in poor rural hamlets and the slums of Bangkok were relatively happy, or least contented (for the good or bad). What did these people have in common? Buddhism. Of course, that's not to say everyone in Thailand is happy or that all Buddhists are happy.
Much of this discussion about happiness hinges on extremes and ideals.
In a practical sense, happiness is trumped by what ever the practise or meditation shows is good to do. Someone outside of a meditative practise would worry for the loss of their happiness. Someone fully embedded in a meditation practise just chooses what next to do, without having a conditioned quest for happiness or the avoidance of sadness, determining what that choice is.
Much of this discussion about happiness hinges on extremes and ideals.
In a practical sense, happiness is trumped by what ever the practise or meditation shows is good to do. Someone outside of a meditative practise would worry for the loss of their happiness. Someone fully embedded in a meditation practise just chooses what next to do, without having a conditioned quest for happiness or the avoidance of sadness, determining what that choice is.
Yeah but all he is saying is that there are better things than sex.
There are better foods out there, but I don't always eat steak. Sometimes I just nip to McDonalds.
Bhikkhus, all this is burning! And what, Bhikkhus, is that All that is burning? The eye, ear, nose, tongue, body and the mind is burning. All forms, sounds, smells, flavours, touches, and mental states are also burning! Whatever kind of consciousness of sense-contact is also burning! Any feeling arisen caused by contact, whether pleasant, painful or neutral, that too is also burning... Burning with what? I say: Burning with the fire of lust, hate and ignorance, birth, ageing, death, sadness, disappointment, frustration, and Suffering!
He's talking about sex here. He's talking about ALL forms, feelings, whether pleasant, painful or neutral. He's talking about all 5 skandhas. And they are all "Burning with the fire of lust, hate and ignorance, birth, ageing, death, sadness, disappointment, frustration, and Suffering". A Buddha is not attracted to anything inside the 5 skandhas. He has entirely left this entire world behind. That is why he is called a Buddha to begin with.
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DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
edited July 2012
I know some people who try their very best but can't be just freely happy, content. So it's not a free choice. Or what about people who have no house? Or not enough food and water? Can they really just choose to be happy with it?
I've met happy homeless people. It's not that they're happy because of it, they're happy in spite of it.
I'm not disagreeing with what you're saying, I'm just trying to add some more context.
I tend to agree.
I have to admit, today I was put to the test. I said earlier that it was my wifes birthday and that I was going to spread some more ashes. Just after doing so I felt the grief and the sadness come flooding back to the point where half an hour later I thought I was going to have a nervous breakdown right there on the street.
Then I heard her laughing at me. Such a sweet laugh she had... All the sudden I was happy again. I remembered this thread and chuckled.
True joy has no opposite.
This is in quite the contrast to how I used to be. When I was 18 my family and friends had a suicide watch on me that I didn't know about until just a few years ago. I thought I was very ugly and that I would end up alone. It had always been like that since I was little. People around me concentrated on the superficial and I was middle-of-the-road poor with a scar on my face (a big one) from an unfortunate birthmark and instead of two middle front teeth, I have one big one, lol. We had to draw self portraits when I was eight and mine was pretty bad. My folks were already worried over that one but it wasn't two months after that my Dad passed away and the focus shifted.
As I say it came back full force when I was eighteen. My problem was I cared so much about people and would get too attached to women that were out of my league. When a woman did go for me, I would end up sabotaging it. If I would get a compliment I would get defensive as if the person was playing with my emotions like calling a big person "Slim".
When I found Buddhism and Taoism at the end of that year the child came back to life.
Before I was subject to caring what others thought about me I was happy and I really wondered about the nature of things.
Somewhere in the last 21 years I realised that the sense of wonder and curiosity and yes, happiness was my default state.
Today I almost lost my brain on West 25th Street but a memory of a sweet laugh reminded me that everything is happening right now so there is no sense of loss, there is no sense of being without.
I had to borrow the bus fare off my brother to get to the mountain and back and I hadn't eaten anything for over 24 hours and I was genuinly happy because I was able to be re-mindful of the child within.
For a while today I thought I was completely wrong and Cloud, Sabre and How were correct. That I was just kidding myself but I'm not.
There is a happiness which has no opposite.
There is no such thing as "nothing" so all that is has no opposite.
Sorry for that rant but I had it in me.
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DaftChrisSpiritually conflicted. Not of this world.Veteran
Personally, as long as it is in moderation, and doesn't become they only thing you do (ie., become lazy, not caring about your job, etc.), then it is not an issue.
I can see what you are saying. Grasping after happiness, like aversion, leads to suffering. The party has to end and impermanence will always have its way. Best to let go sooner rather than later or better yet just don't grasp and cling to start with. Looking for happiness in all the wrong places. But when I speak of happiness I am not speaking of what results from chasing the sensual desires or even what the ego feeds us for our accomplishments.
There is a deeper kind of happiness. Perhaps joy or even a lightness of heart would describe it better. It arises from accepting that "this is" the nature of the present moment including the 3 marks of existence in every temporary manifestation that appears. Happiness results and that is a good thing. No? The Buddha is not depicted with a peaceful happy grin for nothing.
Yes I agree @SeaOfTranquility. The only distinction is that worldly happiness and enlightened happiness are quite different, which is why the term "happiness" can be misleading. I prefer "peace" for enlightenment. It's a happiness that doesn't depend upon anything, that stands firm in the face of change.
Just calling a spade a spade Posting on an anonymous internet forum for a longer time than another doesn't magically make you less of an ass. I may be wrong about it, and maybe they didn't intend to be an ass, and if that's the case then I'm sorry, but if you ask me there was an assness to the remark.
Maybe "rude" would have been a better word, but we're ok with swears in my house and in the spirit of not putting on an internet persona I try to type like I actually speak. I'll call it something less sweary next time in the interest of accommodating those of a more delicate disposition
Just for reference, the general rule here at NB is that the use of profanity is permitted so long as it's not, gratuitous, directed at other people, or unnecessarily offensive (e.g., racial slurs, etc.).
Rebecca, I don't think it's about "accommodating those of a more delicate position". I think it's about working to maintain a level of discourse that benefits all...and over time, that's sometimes quite difficult on internet forums.
I have found you to be an intriguing new poster to our forum.
What I see in this thread is that those who do not wish to practice morals are doing exactly what was not thousands of years ago. Tantra, along with tantric sex, was not part of the Vedas but a separate entity. It first crept into the Vedas and corrupted it, and then when people became Buddhists, they did not wish to give up these vile practices and so eventually it crept into certain sects of Buddhism. Buddha was a celibate all the way, and he practiced the precepts, never giving them over to these secret tantric teachings. If you ever studied the History of the Tantric Religion you would learn this, but you would not learn it from a lama or a guru in the Hindu religions, because they want the sex.
Can you imagine the Buddha drinking wine, eating a woman's menses, eating feces, etc. But if your desire to do these things are there, then yes, you will imagine it. You would not believe what are in the texts, and you may not even believe that they are still practice, but I have talked to lamas who say they are. I left Tibetan Buddhism when I learned that it contained no morals in the end. Some tantras say that you can sleep with your mother or another man's wife, your sister, etc. Even boys or girls are taken by a lama. If you need proof, I can give you a list of scholarly books to read. These things were not just practiced in the past; they are still being practiced. And what if they were only practiced in the past? It would still say that the tantras came from a degeneration of the teachings.
That some Buddhists do immoral actions is not surprising. It happens everywhere in life. That some priests in the Church abuse children doesn't completely negate the morals that Christianity teaches. It's up to the individual person to make the correct choices. None of the Buddhist teachers or lamas I've met would ever consider abusing children (or anyone) and in some cases have talked at length about parenting, parent/child relationships and how to care for children. Just because some do it, doesn't mean all do it and it doesn't make the practice not valuable or untrue.
Homeless folk> I know people who are homeless by choice. Fully 100% by choice. I'm not talking "I choose to be homeless because I got fired from my job." These are people from stable, and sometimes rich parent households who made the conscious choice to live a life of virtually nothing. One girl is a friend of my sister. She has a wonderful, loving, stable family who owns a farm. She lives in a box behind a Sears in California. It's where she likes to live. Not everyone has the same needs. I for one would love to live in a place that doesn't have electricity. I hate feeling bound to the grid, forced to participate in systems I don't want to participate in. Unfortunately choosing to go live in a place without running water or electricity would be considered child abuse where I live, so until my children are living their own lives, this is the society I have to live in
Sex and the enlightened> I think sex between 2 enlightened people could be pretty amazing I think the difference seems to come down to whether any person can have sex and not crave it. Some people think you can (I am one of them) and some, mostly the men it seems, lol, say you can't. Perhaps women get used to not craving for the end product
It happens to be part of the tantric teaching to let go of the precepts and do the things I mentioned; it is not part of the Catholic faith to do so. It isn't wrong according to Tibetan Buddhists; it is for Catholics. I know, I am redundant here.
There are plenty of things within the Bible that are now considered silly, or even taboo that the fundamentalists practice but the majority of Christians don't take seriously. There are fundamentalist/to the book people in every religion, that doesn't mean they all do it. Could any of the people I've talked to be lying? Sure, but I don't get the impression that they are.
I think people are mixing up seeking pleasure and accepting pleasure. There is nothing wrong with accepting both the good and bad in life. Going with someone to an activity to make them happy is different than craving an activity yourself and wanting someone else to go for a feeling of comfort; wouldn't you all agree? I HATE rock climbing myself because I'm terrible with heights, but when my friend begs me to go I do because it seems like a nice thing to do. I don't enjoy it, but I know my friend's enjoyment is worth it.
I think people are mixing up seeking pleasure and accepting pleasure. There is nothing wrong with accepting both the good and bad in life. Going with someone to an activity to make them happy is different than craving an activity yourself and wanting someone else to go for a feeling of comfort; wouldn't you all agree? I HATE rock climbing myself because I'm terrible with heights, but when my friend begs me to go I do because it seems like a nice thing to do. I don't enjoy it, but I know my friend's enjoyment is worth it.
I should question it all and compare to my own experience and common sense and find the truth for myself.
My own experience tells me that .......
Of course I might be wrong, but unless I see something that really convinces me otherwise I doubt I'm going to change my position. Not out of stubbornness, but out of being true to my experience.
do this experiment close your eyes ask someone (your husband or friend) to take different items (a book, a pen, a wooden piece, etc without you seeing them ) and hold them one by one in front of you to touch a small part of the items (let you touch a small part of each item)
see weather you can identify the items just by touching a small part of the item see what is your experience see whether you had a feeling of touch of some hard or soft item or you had a feeling of whatever the name you normally give to the item such as book, pen etc.
Comments
@ourself
I think cloud has explained this well but another way of looking at it is.....
Happiness and sadness are just Ego tools. They are the Ego's carrot & stick that keeps us distracted from our real enslavement. Most folk live inside the ego's sandbox, trapped by a lifetimes conditioning that says only our happiness & sadness really matter.
As long as one chooses to stay within the bounds of that sandbox, happiness and sadness make perfectly good sense as the real reasons to do anything.
Buddhist practise presents an alternative view.
Meditation is just the process of no longer supporting the ego, showing us the illusory nature of our own confinement while leaving the egos tools (happiness & sadness) with little self to entangle.
From the view of self, happiness & sadness are intrinsic to our very existence.
From meditation's view, they are a bubble in a stream, a phantasm, a dream.
:bowdown:
There are better foods out there, but I don't always eat steak. Sometimes I just nip to McDonalds.
It saddens me that many think being happy for others is a trap within ego. That those of us that are able to choose happiness without chasing some rainbow are deluded.
The Dalai Lama chooses to be happy. Thich Nhat Hanh chooses to be happy.
Why do you feel you cannot choose to be happy?
This is my first Google hit;
http://tinybuddha.com/quotes/tiny-wisdom-we-can-choose-right-now/
It sounds like such a cliché to say that most of what we’re seeking is already within us, but nonetheless, it’s true.
Happiness doesn’t only exist in some perfect tomorrow when our circumstances look ideal. It’s a moment-to-moment choice that has to do with how we perceive and respond to what’s in front of us. We can choose happiness right now.
Peace doesn’t only exist in some time without obstacles or troubles. It’s something we can feel by accepting what is, doing our best, and believing that’s good enough. We can choose peace right now.
Love doesn’t only exist in a storybook relationship with the perfect person. It’s something we can nurture within ourselves in any moment and then share with the people and the world around us. We can choose love right now.
Success doesn’t only exist in epic achievement, some day down the road. It’s what we feel when we honor the things that matter to us instead of making excuses why we can’t. We can choose success right now.
We can choose what we think. We can choose what we believe. We can choose how we react. We can choose how we act.
This moment is all there is—and while we can’t control everything about it, we can choose who we are and what we do within it.
What do you choose right now?
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"If you can free yourself from your sorrows concerning the past and your fearfulness concerning the future, if you know how to go home to the present moment and get free, then you can penetrate into the Pure Land of the Buddha. And happiness becomes possible right here and right now."
-- Thich Nhat Hanh
This is no lie or delusion.
Seeking happiness and simply choosing it are two very different things. Then what exactly is the purpose of meditation if not to promote loving kindness and well being?
To turn ourselves into automatons?
For those who trained their mind, happiness is a choice. They can create joy out of nowhere. But this is not for everybody.
And even then clinging to happiness is holding back even greater happiness.
It's my wifes birthday today and I'm going to the mountain here to our favorite lookout bench to spread some of her ashes. One of the surest ways to feel depression is watching your loved one die from cancer.
Sure depression can be a trap but there is only one person that can get us out of it. I'm sure you can guess who I mean. The only thing is, a choice must be made. Sure it is if they train their mind. Clinging to happiness is not the same as simply being happy despite the outer circumstance. One is graceful and one reeks of effort.
you might care, he wouldn't give a fiddler's fret-rubber.
Maybe "rude" would have been a better word, but we're ok with swears in my house and in the spirit of not putting on an internet persona I try to type like I actually speak. I'll call it something less sweary next time in the interest of accommodating those of a more delicate disposition Yeah, but he'd care about my well being and happiness, and given that we're married and that there's nothing wrong with intercourse within a marriage, surely he'd be happy to oblige?
That would be true to his Enlightened mind, not true to your deluded one.
I don't recall any mention of the Buddha going back to bed with his wife, once he returned to the palace....
But that also leads me to get into the mindset that sex has to be related to suffering, and I'm not sure that it does. Well... It's not like college where you ring a bell when you get lucky
My own experience tells me that sex isn't bad, and that while it has the potential to cause suffering, it doesn't have to be that way.
And my own common sense tells me that there is not any actual reason why a Buddha would give up sex, unless he was celibate in the first place.
I mean, a Buddha who loved steak when he was a man will still probably continue to choose steak if it's on the menu, he won't opt for the grain salad all of a sudden.
That's just how I see it.
Of course I might be wrong, but unless I see something that really convinces me otherwise I doubt I'm going to change my position. Not out of stubbornness, but out of being true to my experience.
Also everybody will have some unhappiness in their lives that they can't just wipe out instantly. That's just a part of life itself. So I take back what I said about happiness being a choice for those who trained their mind.
I'm not disagreeing with what you're saying, I'm just trying to add some more context.
In my humble opinion that is not so much.
Much of this discussion about happiness hinges on extremes and ideals.
In a practical sense, happiness is trumped by what ever the practise or meditation shows is good to do. Someone outside of a meditative practise would worry for the loss of their happiness. Someone fully embedded in a meditation practise just chooses what next to do, without having a conditioned quest for happiness or the avoidance of sadness, determining what that choice is.
I have to admit, today I was put to the test. I said earlier that it was my wifes birthday and that I was going to spread some more ashes. Just after doing so I felt the grief and the sadness come flooding back to the point where half an hour later I thought I was going to have a nervous breakdown right there on the street.
Then I heard her laughing at me. Such a sweet laugh she had... All the sudden I was happy again. I remembered this thread and chuckled.
True joy has no opposite.
This is in quite the contrast to how I used to be. When I was 18 my family and friends had a suicide watch on me that I didn't know about until just a few years ago. I thought I was very ugly and that I would end up alone. It had always been like that since I was little. People around me concentrated on the superficial and I was middle-of-the-road poor with a scar on my face (a big one) from an unfortunate birthmark and instead of two middle front teeth, I have one big one, lol. We had to draw self portraits when I was eight and mine was pretty bad. My folks were already worried over that one but it wasn't two months after that my Dad passed away and the focus shifted.
As I say it came back full force when I was eighteen. My problem was I cared so much about people and would get too attached to women that were out of my league. When a woman did go for me, I would end up sabotaging it. If I would get a compliment I would get defensive as if the person was playing with my emotions like calling a big person "Slim".
When I found Buddhism and Taoism at the end of that year the child came back to life.
Before I was subject to caring what others thought about me I was happy and I really wondered about the nature of things.
Somewhere in the last 21 years I realised that the sense of wonder and curiosity and yes, happiness was my default state.
Today I almost lost my brain on West 25th Street but a memory of a sweet laugh reminded me that everything is happening right now so there is no sense of loss, there is no sense of being without.
I had to borrow the bus fare off my brother to get to the mountain and back and I hadn't eaten anything for over 24 hours and I was genuinly happy because I was able to be re-mindful of the child within.
For a while today I thought I was completely wrong and Cloud, Sabre and How were correct. That I was just kidding myself but I'm not.
There is a happiness which has no opposite.
There is no such thing as "nothing" so all that is has no opposite.
Sorry for that rant but I had it in me.
On this idea of happiness.
I can see what you are saying. Grasping after happiness, like aversion, leads to suffering. The party has to end and impermanence will always have its way. Best to let go sooner rather than later or better yet just don't grasp and cling to start with. Looking for happiness in all the wrong places. But when I speak of happiness I am not speaking of what results from chasing the sensual desires or even what the ego feeds us for our accomplishments.
There is a deeper kind of happiness. Perhaps joy or even a lightness of heart would describe it better. It arises from accepting that "this is" the nature of the present moment including the 3 marks of existence in every temporary manifestation that appears. Happiness results and that is a good thing. No?
The Buddha is not depicted with a peaceful happy grin for nothing.
I have found you to be an intriguing new poster to our forum.
Can you imagine the Buddha drinking wine, eating a woman's menses, eating feces, etc. But if your desire to do these things are there, then yes, you will imagine it. You would not believe what are in the texts, and you may not even believe that they are still practice, but I have talked to lamas who say they are. I left Tibetan Buddhism when I learned that it contained no morals in the end. Some tantras say that you can sleep with your mother or another man's wife, your sister, etc. Even boys or girls are taken by a lama. If you need proof, I can give you a list of scholarly books to read. These things were not just practiced in the past; they are still being practiced. And what if they were only practiced in the past? It would still say that the tantras came from a degeneration of the teachings.
Homeless folk> I know people who are homeless by choice. Fully 100% by choice. I'm not talking "I choose to be homeless because I got fired from my job." These are people from stable, and sometimes rich parent households who made the conscious choice to live a life of virtually nothing. One girl is a friend of my sister. She has a wonderful, loving, stable family who owns a farm. She lives in a box behind a Sears in California. It's where she likes to live. Not everyone has the same needs. I for one would love to live in a place that doesn't have electricity. I hate feeling bound to the grid, forced to participate in systems I don't want to participate in. Unfortunately choosing to go live in a place without running water or electricity would be considered child abuse where I live, so until my children are living their own lives, this is the society I have to live in
Sex and the enlightened> I think sex between 2 enlightened people could be pretty amazing
close your eyes
ask someone (your husband or friend) to take different items (a book, a pen, a wooden piece, etc without you seeing them ) and hold them one by one in front of you to touch a small part of the items (let you touch a small part of each item)
see weather you can identify the items just by touching a small part of the item
see what is your experience
see whether you had a feeling of touch of some hard or soft item
or
you had a feeling of whatever the name you normally give to the item such as book, pen etc.
do this experiment and you will have an insight
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJTCZ1izujg&feature=player_detailpage#t=707s
You have to copy and paste the link to have it start at the right time.