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A Dharma for the masses - a philosophy and practice

mindatriskmindatrisk Veteran
edited August 2012 in Buddhism Today
I’ve thought about what kind of practice could be devised that would help to effectively, efficiently and quickly proliferate and cultivate loving kindness in the masses. I have tried to make the ideas, the philosophy and the practice accessible, understandable, and relevant to everyday living. However, what I’m offering is just some starting points, nothing gospel, nothing set in stone, and all open to debate, criticism, change and improvement. Have fun!

The Philosophy

Idea One - Attraction, not promotion.

We will not promote or evangelise this practice, but instead depend upon the strength of our example to attract attention and interest. If someone notices that we are unusually kind, patient etc. and takes an interest in how we are so, then and only then will we share our practice, our ideas, our beliefs. This will serve to motivate our own development and expression of loving kindness, whilst ensuring that we do not isolate anyone nor create a false impression of our practice. Simply put, we walk before we talk.

Idea Two - Take our light to where it is dark.


To make the strongest impression and attract the most attention to our practice we must place ourselves where our loving kindness is most needed and will be most valued and recognised. Remember, we are setting an example to promote loving kindness, not ourselves, so seeking attention is not about the ego, but about allowing people to see the potential and benefit of loving kindness.

We should seek to place ourselves where our practice will most stand out and make an impression and benefit those around us. Ideal circumstances would be anywhere where conflict arises and behavioural issues are prevalent. This could be working with drug addicts, children with behavioural issues, paedophiles etc. Our ability to express tolerance, empathy, forgiveness etc. in these situations are what will attract people to our practice.

Idea Three - Practice, practice, practice… home life

Our example within conflict situations must be near impeccable. To be inconsistent will undermine our practice and make us unattractive. Before we place ourselves in such situations we must commit to dedicated practice. We can do this by reconsidering our lives as one great extended opportunity for the practice and development of loving attributes. If we become stuck in a queue then this becomes nothing but an opportunity to practice patience. If we hear about someone sexually abusing a child then this becomes nothing but an opportunity to practice empathy. If someone is personally attacking us then this becomes nothing but an opportunity to practice tolerance. And so on.

The key field of practice is our home lives with our family. For most of us it is with our own families that our practice can slip… we must not be ‘street angels, home devils’. If we can master our practice in our home life then we will be much better prepared and much more confident to express our practice in the conflict situations that we are aiming to place ourselves within. We must recognise that, as difficult as a situation may be, the opportunity to practice and develop our loving kindness is more valuable to ourselves than the difficult situation is detrimental.

With a little practice and with increased confidence in our ability to be an example of loving kindness in conflict situations we will soon anticipate, welcome and embrace conflict situations to demonstrate loving kindness within, in the knowledge that successful expression of loving kindness in these moments is what will most attract people to living their lives with loving kindness.

The Practice

To achieve the above I’ve taken what I consider to be the five key attributes that would need to be practiced and developed. They are:

1. Tolerance
2. Patience
3. Forgiveness
4. Empathy
5. Compassion

Tolerance

We practice tolerance so that we do not react negatively (with anger) within the conflict situations and cause harm. To practice tolerance we simply reflect on the consequences that may arise from a negative reaction. First, we do not know how many people will be harmed by our reaction. We may upset one person, but they may then go and upset their family members, who may then go and upset various people in their lives, and so on. If we reflect on this we will see that the consequences of our anger may never end, but simply continue to branch out and harming more and more people far removed from us.

Secondly, we do not know how someone will be harmed. We may think that our anger is minor and insignificant, but we do not know that our reaction could be the final straw for that individual, or for someone further down the line on the consequence tree. We may upset someone with our anger who may then go and shout at their depressed child at home who then commits suicide. Regardless of whether this is likely or not, we should make sure that the possibility is reduced. If we knew all of the consequences that arose from our negative reactions then we would never feel justified in reacting that way. Holding this in mind is what will motivate our practice of tolerance.

Patience

We practice patience so that our tolerance endures within a conflict situation. To practice patience we need to reflect on what information we may not be aware of that, if we were aware of, would change our perception and our response to the situation. For example, at work a colleague walks by and ignores our warm greeting. We may become upset and angry at our colleague and consider them to be ignorant. Later on we find out that our colleague had just found out that their child had been taken to hospital and was rushing out of the building. Patience allows us the time and space to gather more information and respond more appropriately and wisely to the situation.

Forgiveness

Although we may have expressed tolerance and patience in a situation, this does not mean that feelings of anger have not arisen but have simply been controlled. Therefore, we practice forgiveness to remove these feelings and ensure that they are not allowed to distil and develop into a stronger feeling later that may not be controlled and may end up being expressed to the detriment of others.

To practice forgiveness we need to change our perspective of the situation we are in. We must see that to practice tolerance and patience requires situations that challenge our tolerance and patience, and if we understand that the development of tolerance and patience are more valuable to us than the conflict situation is detrimental, then, in fact, the conflict situation is a positive experience for us not negative, and therefore there is nothing to forgive. As this perspective develops and our practice intensifies then we begin to realise that no negative situation need exist for us, because each negative situation provides an invaluable opportunity to practice.

Empathy

The above three practices are about not harming others in a conflict situation. With empathy and compassion we are now seeking to help those in the conflict situation, especially those who have attacked us. This is where our practice can make the greatest impression and where people can begin to see the wonderful merits of loving kindness. To empathise with others we do not need to understand their exact situation or behaviour, we simply need to recognise that all misbehaviour arises from suffering, and that if we ourselves had experienced their suffering then we too would most likely behave as they are. As such, instead of seeing misbehaviour (in whatever form it is being expressed) we now see only suffering, and we will wish to help this individual just as much as we would if we saw someone lying in the road with a broken leg and in great agony. From this appreciation of suffering our compassion will arise.

Compassion

Compassion is our desire to relieve the suffering of others. In a conflict situation, where we may be being attacked, all we see is suffering and all we desire to do is to relieve that suffering and help them to find peace and happiness. Why? Because fist of all, as we have already identified, the conflict situation is a positive one for us, so why would we want anything but happiness and wellbeing for someone who has gifted us with such a precious opportunity for practice?

Secondly, out of such compassionate responses arise great relationships and friendships. How would we feel about someone who treat us with such tolerance, patience, forgiveness, empathy and compassion when we were behaving at our worst? Would we respect that person? Would we treasure that person? Would we wish to do good for them? Would we help them if they were in trouble? Would we provide beneficial opportunities to help them follow their dreams? Of course we would.

And so we can see that from our compassion and desire for the happiness of others manifests great potential for our own happiness too… we will have people around us who care deeply about us, who seek to help and assist us, who support and encourage us, who open doors of opportunity for us, and who, when we are at our worst, provide the same tender compassion and forgiveness that we have shown them. This possibility should be more than enough to motivate compassionate action even as we are being attacked.

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Comments

  • RebeccaSRebeccaS Veteran
    edited August 2012
    So, I've been thinking really hard about this subject, and I figured out one of the really big red flags.

    It's this term "the masses". I was like, who addresses people as "the masses" and what does it really mean? I found the phrase on the free dictionary, which explained its meaning as "the great body of the people, as contrasted with the higher classes; the populace." As contrasted with the higher classes... So, who has addressed people as "the masses" throughout history? Most notably, Hitler, Goebbels and, of course, Karl Marx. Which is quite funny in a way given Hitler's aversion to communism and Marxism. In more modern times, it's a phrase that pretty much belongs to socialists and anarchists, people with very extreme political ideals.

    Of good people who used the term, I found that Martin Luther King used it one time in reference to societal classes and within the context of what he was doing made sense.

    So hard wired within this notion of "the masses" is always this idea of superiority and the idea of victim/perpetrator. The upper classes repressing the lower classes, the lower classes being better than the upper classes, that kind of thing, is always there when that term is used. Someone always has the "upper hand".

    And it's extraordinarily off putting, and given its origin, worrying.

    The Buddha taught that we are not less than, not more than and not equal to other people. This idea of "the masses", because of its very meaning, is contrary to that teaching.

    Plus, I usually find that if Hitler was doing it, it's probably wrong :lol:
  • robotrobot Veteran
    The title of the work is easy to fix.
    The content is describing the way Buddhists should behave. I have no problem with it.
    This type of behavior is what would naturally result from a Buddhist practice. The instructions for right livelihood are already there.
    For those of us engaged in wrong lively hood all the same principals apply.
    This is how we teach our children to act.
    Do unto others, turn the other cheek, that kind of thing.
    Nothing revolutionary so far.
  • RebeccaSRebeccaS Veteran
    edited August 2012
    The title of the work is easy to fix.
    Yeah, it is. I'm just pointing out why it's off putting - mainly that it has very negative connotations :)

  • The title of the work is easy to fix.
    Yeah, it is. I'm just pointing out why it's off putting - mainly that it has very negative connotations :)

    Okay, I take your point, RebeccaS, obviously if the word 'masses' had such negative connotations for me then I wouldn't have used that word, but I haven't studied the figures that you have talked about, and I was just using a term to relate to a large body of people. I live in and work in Middlesbrough, a few years ago it was voted the worst place to live in the UK, by no means whatsoever am I 'upperclass'. :) Thank you for your thoughts. If anyone else experiences the same negative reaction that you have then i'll use a different word... 'general populance', perhaps?
  • RebeccaSRebeccaS Veteran
    edited August 2012
    The title of the work is easy to fix.
    Yeah, it is. I'm just pointing out why it's off putting - mainly that it has very negative connotations :)

    Okay, I take your point, RebeccaS, obviously if the word 'masses' had such negative connotations for me then I wouldn't have used that word, but I haven't studied the figures that you have talked about, and I was just using a term to relate to a large body of people. I live in and work in Middlesbrough, a few years ago it was voted the worst place to live in the UK, by no means whatsoever am I 'upperclass'. :) Thank you for your thoughts. If anyone else experiences the same negative reaction that you have then i'll use a different word... 'general populance', perhaps?
    That's where I'm from, mate :) Boro lass born and bred. I only got out a couple of years ago. Small world, eh?

    But yeah, that's the kind of thing that phrase is generally associated with, it's very divisive. It's actually mostly used by working class people out of envy of the middle class.

    How about just "people"? That would be my suggestion :)
  • SileSile Veteran
    edited August 2012
    Don't be discouraged, @mindatrisk, I know you took time to right that up. I do think we have to realize that every one of these people/masses could have greater tolerance, patience, forgiveness, empathy and compassion than we ourselves, at any moment. So I would suggest humility as an additional concept - every street person could be an emanation of Buddha, lol (and I believe that). And everyone--ourselves or others--would benefit immensely from practicing humility.

    It's a little sticky, because different cultures have different approaches to "behaving in public," and you don't want to, you know, rid the world of all it's colorful flair ;) I mean, would a humble Vinnie Barbarino have been half as interesting?

    image

    But in general an extra dose of humility would prevent wars.

    Realizing this possibility, and having humility, strips away any sense of preachiness, any missionary sense of "I am better than you, but you can be better, too." I feel like it's more helpful to convey the thought, "We can all be happier - it's really possible."
  • The title of the work is easy to fix.
    The content is describing the way Buddhists should behave. I have no problem with it.
    This type of behavior is what would naturally result from a Buddhist practice. The instructions for right livelihood are already there.
    For those of us engaged in wrong lively hood all the same principals apply.
    This is how we teach our children to act.
    Do unto others, turn the other cheek, that kind of thing.
    Nothing revolutionary so far.
    The practice was never meant to be revolutionary, it was simply meant to be concise and easily understood. You may teach your children the above, and they may behave with the above, but I do not see a world populated by tolerant, patience, forgiving, empathetic and compassion individuals. I just wanted to break down Buddhist ethics into its simplest parts and consider how we could consider them and implement them in relation to everyday lives in such a way that could be communicated and understood, whilst still being effective.

    What I wanted to do was find a practice that could be focused on and that would enhance and motivate personal growth towards greater loving kindness whilst making the most impression on those around us, hence the suggestion that those willing to practice should position themselves purposefully where conflict is likely to arise. I actually don't think this is a very Buddhist thing to do. As I said earlier, most Buddhists that I know are more 'come to' as opposed to Christians who are more 'go to'. What I am suggesting is that it is not with words that we evangelise but with our example.

    Anyway, i've shared a few thoughts, and the idea was that people could offer their own and / or develop and dissect what i've started with. Either way, i'm just curious to see what we could come up with to meet the initial criteria I set. So, please, even if you have ideas then share them.
  • The title of the work is easy to fix.
    Yeah, it is. I'm just pointing out why it's off putting - mainly that it has very negative connotations :)

    Okay, I take your point, RebeccaS, obviously if the word 'masses' had such negative connotations for me then I wouldn't have used that word, but I haven't studied the figures that you have talked about, and I was just using a term to relate to a large body of people. I live in and work in Middlesbrough, a few years ago it was voted the worst place to live in the UK, by no means whatsoever am I 'upperclass'. :) Thank you for your thoughts. If anyone else experiences the same negative reaction that you have then i'll use a different word... 'general populance', perhaps?
    That's where I'm from, mate :) Boro lass born and bred. I only got out a couple of years ago. Small world, eh?

    But yeah, that's the kind of thing that phrase is generally associated with, it's very divisive. It's actually mostly used by working class people out of envy of the middle class.

    How about just "people"? That would be my suggestion :)
    Oh well, that explains your take-no-bullshit attitude! How weird. After our debates yesterday I actually prayed that we would be able to connect over something, and here we go! Did you say you were an addict, previously? Because I work in the old First Step building, which you might be aware of, it's called Hope North East now. :)
  • @mindatrisk It's really very strange! A prayer truly answered. Yes, unfortunately you can take the girl out of Boro but you can't take the Boro out of the girl. At least, it hasn't all disappeared yet :)

    No, I don't know first step and if it's changed over the past two or three years I won't know it in its current incarnation. Where abouts is it?
  • Don't be discouraged, @mindatrisk, I know you took time to right that up. I do think we have to realize that every one of these people/masses could have greater tolerance, patience, forgiveness, empathy and compassion than we ourselves, at any moment. So I would suggest humility as an additional concept - every street person could be an emanation of Buddha, lol (and I believe that). And everyone--ourselves or others--would benefit immensely from practicing humility. It's a little sticky, because different cultures have different approaches to "behaving in public," and you don't want to, you know, rid the world of all it's colorful flair ;) But in general an extra dose of humility would prevent wars.

    Realizing this possibility, and having humility, strips away any sense of preachiness, any missionary sense of "I am better than you, but you can be better, too." I feel like it's more helpful to convey the thought, "We can all be happier - it's really possible."

    Great point, and humility was something that I had definitely considered adding to the five aspects, BUT, my feeling was that if the five above were practiced then humility would naturally arise, y'know, if you really, really think about how much of a detrimental affect we can have on others then it does - at least for me - make me very careful and respectful when interacting with others. But I am not discouraged! I wanted to get a ball rolling and so yeah, I took some time to think up a practice and strategy that could meet what I was aiming for initially. If people think it can be added to, removed from, developed, discarded, or whatever then it's up to them. I think it is quite a nifty little practice, it could be very effective at spreading loving kindness to the peasants... :D
  • @mindatrisk It's really very strange! A prayer truly answered. Yes, unfortunately you can take the girl out of Boro but you can't take the Boro out of the girl. At least, it hasn't all disappeared yet :)

    No, I don't know first step and if it's changed over the past two or three years I won't know it in its current incarnation. Where abouts is it?
    Town centre end of Marton Road, near the cinema, pizza hut etc. There's a big church... St. Johns I think, and we are the building next door, it's the old vicarage. Here are the google map co-ordinates...

    54.57433,-1.22658
  • zsczsc Explorer
    All you're doing is dressing up post-Enlightenment humanism ethics and calling it Buddhism. Buddhism already has lists like this. The one that comes to mind is the Six Perfections, contained in Om Mani Padme Hum. There is nothing to make up. Why not enhance what is already spelled out Dharma?
  • SileSile Veteran
    edited August 2012
    Here's a snippet from a very thorough and recent article on the wonderful impact meditation has had in some schools. I'd say the outcome definitely meets the goal of fostering peace instead of conflict, as well as that of taking something with Buddhist roots and sharing it in a non-religious fashion with a wider community:

    "Since the schoolwide implementation of Quiet Time in 2008, suspensions have been cut in half, from 13 suspensions per 100 students in 2006-07 to six suspensions per 100 students in 2010-11. Truancy rates have dropped by 61 percent. In 2010-11, only 7 percent of students had unexcused absences or were tardy for three or more days, compared with 18 percent in 2006-07. According to data from the San Francisco Unified School District, VVMS currently boasts among the highest number of middle schools students who say they like their school and would recommend it to others."

    http://www.edutopia.org/stw-student-stress-meditation-schools-research
  • Yeah I know where you are. Well, it's not like you'll ever run out of business in Middlesbrough :lol:
  • Yeah I know where you are. Well, it's not like you'll ever run out of business in Middlesbrough :lol:
    Oooh that's a sore point. I think there are some people and organisations who feel that having a presence in Middlesbrough is like sitting on a goldmine. Cos yeah, there are PLENTY of addicts, and whilst the services do great work getting people into recovery, there is so little work done on actually preventing addiction from occurring the first place. For every individual we get into recovery there are going to be God knows how many more individuals picking up a substance for the first time who might not recognise they have a problem for 5, 10, 20 years, before then entering a service.

    What I am writing here and seeking is a response to that. I want to know how we can stop the cycle of addiction, and to me the only way we can do that is to end the suffering and deprivation that leads to it, and that means spreading a message of love and kindness and encouraging love and kindness. I think you'll appreciate that most Middlesbrough folk aren't going to become practicing Buddhists anytime soon, but condensing the ideas and making them fit into their own lives could be a possibility.

    I'm setting up a website and discussion forum for the Teesside recovery community as we speak, where I hope to promote some of these ideas and practices. I think because of the spiritual nature of a lot of people in recovery through AA / NA etc. that they will welcome and assimilate the ideas easier than other people would, but obviously they will take these ideas into their own lives and, hopefully, express them around others who might take notice. To me, it's about sewing seeds. Middlesbrough is not going to become a utopia anytime soon, but I can play my part in making it a little better now, and when you work around addicts day in and day out, and you see their suffering and misery at times, and you love them as real friends, then you can get an urgency to just do something, to think of new ways of helping more people, to be creative, because there are sooooo many issues to be tackled. But yeah, I want to see more prevention, I want to see Middlesbrough in recovery, not just addicts, so we can put a full stop on this whole tragic waste of life and happiness.

    This is the website so far, still plenty of work to do...

    http://www.teessiderecoveryonline.com/
  • All you're doing is dressing up post-Enlightenment humanism ethics and calling it Buddhism. Buddhism already has lists like this. The one that comes to mind is the Six Perfections, contained in Om Mani Padme Hum. There is nothing to make up. Why not enhance what is already spelled out Dharma?
    Because, as I said previously, I feel that the simple mention of Buddhism is off putting to many. I know it is by how people around me react to my interest in it. One particular Christian likes to mock the 'fat buddha'... hmm. So yeah, I want a practice that can be taken to a wider audience that doesn't have the obstacles that taking Buddhism to a wider audience would. Getting people, especially in my area, to chant Om Mani Padme Hum is highly unlikely - and i've tried - but getting people to think before they react with anger is not as difficult, if it is explained in a way that makes sense to them. That means forgetting about the karmic consequences of their anger and how it'll influence their next birth, but instead simply looking carefully at the damage that their anger does and whether they find that damage acceptable.
  • RebeccaSRebeccaS Veteran
    edited August 2012
    Yeah, your workers were addicts too, right? They're the best ones.

    The reason AA has such a high recovery rate is its absolute focus on humility. "We admitted we were powerless over alcohol - that our lives had become unmanageable, that we were beyond human aid."

    Each subsequent step deepens the humility necessary to realize that 1. You're an addict and your addiction is beyond your control 2. You can't do it alone 3. Only a spiritual experience has the power to save you.

    Without humility AA simply wouldn't work. Humility is the very core and foundation of all spiritual work, and recovery is spiritual work if I ever saw it.

    Humility is the absolute prerequisite. We don't get it right first time, we probably don't get it right a million times over, but we must have enough humility to pray for the willingness to be more humble. To pray for humility is an act of humility in itself.

    It's the core, foundation and cornerstone of recovery and spiritual growth.
  • SileSile Veteran
    It sounds like a meditation program might be really beneficial in your area. I've heard of it being used with great success in prisons for example (not that people in your area are criminals - just that it works with adults, too).


  • http://www.teessiderecoveryonline.com/
    Too much politics. There is a reason AA stays away from politics and it's because politics are divisive and isolate people. For example, someone who feels the war in Iraq was justified will immediately be uncomfortable with your website.
  • It sounds like a meditation program might be really beneficial in your area. I've heard of it being used with great success in prisons for example (not that people in your area are criminals - just that it works with adults, too).
    Yeah, your workers were addicts too, right? They're the best ones.

    The reason AA has such a high recovery rate is its absolute focus on humility. "We admitted we were powerless over alcohol - that our lives had become unmanageable, that we were beyond human aid."

    Each subsequent step deepens the humility necessary to realize that 1. You're an addict and your addiction is beyond your control 2. You can't do it alone 3. Only a spiritual experience has the power to save you.

    Without humility AA simply wouldn't work. Humility is the very core and foundation of all spiritual work, and recovery is spiritual work if I ever saw it.

    Humility is the absolute prerequisite. We don't get it right first time, we probably don't get it right a million times over, but we must have enough humility to pray for the willingness to be more humble. To pray for humility is an act of humility in itself.

    It's the core, foundation and cornerstone of recovery and spiritual growth.
    A lot of the staff are recovering addicts, yeah, and once upon a time a lot of the volunteers too, but not so much now. To me, humility is the bedrock of spirituality, but it's not something that can be understood through teaching but through the actual experience of being humble. Most of the times humility arises through humiliation or other life events, the fellowship obviously advocates acknowledging personal limitations and surrendering to a higher power which encourages humility but by no means guarantees it consistently. In the five qualities that I outlined above I wanted the practices to bring about humility, which is especially evident within the practices of tolerance, patience and empathy, I feel. Those practices are meant to humble us into re-thinking our actions.
  • Actually, those kinds of things can be the breeding ground for pride. "Look at me I'm so good, I'm so kind, you should be like me".

    You can do things that look selfless but that are actually very self serving and only bolster the ego and its delusion of perfection further.

    It's a fine line, but it exists and it's a pitfall many of us encounter.
  • It sounds like a meditation program might be really beneficial in your area. I've heard of it being used with great success in prisons for example (not that people in your area are criminals - just that it works with adults, too).
    Yeah we have plenty of meditation classes, but Middlesbrough is a pretty big place. We have lots of churches, a strong Muslim presence, Hindu's, some Buddhism etc. But asides from the Christians, there is very little integration between spiritual sections and the general population who really do need some spiritual nourishment but who are generally adverse to such things... hence my interest in establishing something a little more under the radar.
  • Actually, those kinds of things can be the breeding ground for pride. "Look at me I'm so good, I'm so kind, you should be like me".

    You can do things that look selfless but that are actually very self serving and only bolster the ego and its delusion of perfection further.

    It's a fine line, but it exists and it's a pitfall many of us encounter.
    True! But it's a starting point. I probably won't be able to share a path that begins and ends in perfection. I'm sure the above pitfall is equally valid for early Buddhist practioneers too... well, and later, and later later. In fact, I am 12 years into this path and those exact issues still crop up. I was going to start a thread here about just that actually, thanks for reminding me. Y'know, when you get on a spiritual path you make mistakes, your motives can be confused, and it's a whole big mess between two very different camps, but life sorts us out. It's good to begin thinking about being more patient with others, and maybe that will lead to some ego stuff, but as i've experienced and as i've seen daily at work, life WILL kick your arse back into place, and that seems to mean either greater humility or greater resistance and greater pain until we relinquish.


  • http://www.teessiderecoveryonline.com/
    Too much politics. There is a reason AA stays away from politics and it's because politics are divisive and isolate people. For example, someone who feels the war in Iraq was justified will immediately be uncomfortable with your website.
    This is a good point. I might change the Iraq war part, it was only one example of many millions whereby non-addicts cause harm too.
  • SileSile Veteran
    edited August 2012
    Now of course I can't find it, but I just read something that said we tend to rely on religious-sounding words when describing the mind, because that's the only vocabulary rich enough with terms that come close to being adequate.

    Even "loving-kindness" will evoke thoughts of Christianity, I think; in fact, love in general will (if used outside the romantic concept). I suppose that's a good sign, really, for Christianity ;) But it makes it hard to talk about universal love (and other human-wide mind concepts) without sounding religious.
  • RebeccaSRebeccaS Veteran
    edited August 2012
    Pride the biggest block to spiritual growth. The only reason we aren't all enlightened is pride :lol: It's the number one thing and manifests itself in countless ways. Everything, all the problems, they all come down to pride in some form or another. Fear is pride, anger is pride, desire is pride.

    Sometimes it takes something extraordinary to pull us out of it, and that's why we allow addicts to hit rock bottom.
  • Yeah, pride, that son of a *bleep*. It's a little bit amusing - in a very gentle, kindly way - to see some addicts very much the worse for wear and with little dignity to hold onto still trying to keep up a hotshot front like they are 'the man / woman'. It happens quite a lot when people first access the service, but quickly fades away. It's sweet, and because we all recognise it in ourselves we know that it won't be longlasting, but I guess our pride will always spot the piece of glitter in the dog shit smeared across our faces first. I
  • SileSile Veteran
    edited August 2012
    Hmm...there are two threads, "Dharma for the masses" and "Dharma for the masses - a philosophy and practice," but they seem to be the exact same thread.

    Or has all the koan talk finally spurred me into some bizarre dual mind - adding a "head on top of my head?"

    [Edit: now they seem to be different threads, so it must have been me!]
  • @mindatrisk Reform in your area is certainly possible if you just don't give up ! As a motivation here is a real story of a similar reform in an Indian village brought about by a 75 year old social activist Anna Hazare. Though his methods were a little different but objectives were same as yours.

    All the best :)
  • Yeah I know that character intimately! :lol:

    It's sad to see, and it's really, really common, but I think it's just one aspect of the nature of addiction, and a little peek into human/ego nature itself.
  • mindatriskmindatrisk Veteran
    edited August 2012
    @mindatrisk Reform in your area is certainly possible if you just don't give up ! As a motivation here is a real story of a similar reform in an Indian village brought about by a 75 year old social activist Anna Hazare. Though his methods were a little different but objectives were same as yours.

    All the best :)
    Thank you, what a wonderful story. I know i've been knocked in these two threads for my thoughts and beliefs, but I live in an area that is populated by so much hardship, misery, hopelessness, desperation, AND - in a developed western country - very real poverty, so when you live in it and work with it you can't help but want to do something about it. I don't need to be perfect, and i'm not in a position where I really care about 'respecting traditions'... I care about the people around me, and i've no problem taking and adapting any teaching if it is going to make it more accessible to those suffering and with it help ease their suffering.

    If i'm going to wait until I am perfect and my motives are purified to help those around me then i'm probably best dying now and incarnating near a cave up a mountain. People CAN make a difference to the world, and to me, it doesn't matter what it takes to bring goodness so long as it is done with goodness. Most people in Middlesbrough are not going to practice Buddhism, to wish otherwise or to seek to preserve Buddhist traditions out of some kind of 'respect' is ridiculous when there are real lives with real suffering. If I can find a way to share Buddhist ideas to those around me that are acceptable to them then i'll do it, because that is compassion in action.
  • RebeccaSRebeccaS Veteran
    edited August 2012
    I know i've been knocked in these two threads for my thoughts and beliefs, but I live in an area that is populated by so much hardship, misery, hopelessness, desperation, AND - in a developed western country - very real poverty, so when you live in it and work with it you can't help but want to do something about it.
    Nobody has knocked you. Sure, not everyone agreed with you, but you're making a position for yourself to influence very vulnerable people and we wouldn't be doing our jobs as decent human beings if we didn't question that. Nobody is trying to put you down, I promise you, we're just looking out for you and offering different perspectives.

    And don't forget, I'm from where you're from. I grew up in it, lived most of my life in it and was once one of the very people you're looking to help now. I know and understand that feeling of urgency in wanting to help, I've been there, I get it. The same place, the same people, the same problems.

    We're all on your side here, I assure you :)
  • SileSile Veteran
    edited August 2012
    I know i've been knocked in these two threads for my thoughts and beliefs, but I live in an area that is populated by so much hardship, misery, hopelessness, desperation, AND - in a developed western country - very real poverty, so when you live in it and work with it you can't help but want to do something about it. I don't need to be perfect, and i'm not in a position where I really care about 'respecting traditions'... I care about the people around me, and i've no problem taking and adapting any teaching if it is going to make it more accessible to those suffering and with it help ease their suffering.

    If i'm going to wait until I am perfect and my motives are purified to help those around me then i'm probably best dying now and incarnating near a cave up a mountain. People CAN make a difference to the world, and to me, it doesn't matter what it takes to bring goodness so long as it is done with goodness. Most people in Middlesbrough are not going to practice Buddhism, to wish otherwise or to seek to preserve Buddhist traditions out of some kind of 'respect' is ridiculous when there are real lives with real suffering. If I can find a way to share Buddhist ideas to those around me that are acceptable to them then i'll do it, because that is compassion in action.
    With all due respect, I don't think anyone disagrees with your idea of helping people. I think that it's not clear exactly what you'd do to help people, and in trying to get at what that would be, a lot of back and forth happens--it might sound negative, but going back and forth is just a way to gain perspective in the absence of examples (and I don't blame you for not providing examples yet, I'm just saying that without them all we can do is debate and guess).

    I guess a question I would have is "What would be Buddhist about your approach?" Not that it has to be Buddhist, but you've framed it as being rooted in Buddhism. The specific question would be, "How would your method differ from a Christian's?"

    For me this is an important topic, because while both Christianity and Buddhism can teach loving-kindness, talk about it, encourage it, the foundation--and therefore the likelihood of permanent success, in my opinion--can be different. It's the whole blind faith versus reasoned faith thing.

    Now, you don't have to make your program specifically Buddhist, I'm not saying that. But since you've said that's kind of what you're about, I would expect something specifically Buddhist about your approach, since I'm assuming that you, like I, place greater hope in a Buddhist approach versus a Christian approach. I'm not talking religion here, I'm talking underlying philosophy once the religious aspects are stripped away.

    The way I see it, the Christian starts with, "You should be loving and kind because God is a God of love, and He wants you to be." When you strip away the religious part, it becomes simply, "You should be loving and kind."

    The Buddhist may start with, "Practicing loving-kindness will make you happier, and the Buddha taught that you can prove it." Strip away the (what others might see as) religion, and you get, "Practicing loving-kindness will make you happier, and you can prove it."

    The Buddhist approach, by incorporating reason--and compelling ones--into the argument, seems to me to have the better chance of longevity, in contrast with the approach that says "you should...just because."
  • I know i've been knocked in these two threads for my thoughts and beliefs, but I live in an area that is populated by so much hardship, misery, hopelessness, desperation, AND - in a developed western country - very real poverty, so when you live in it and work with it you can't help but want to do something about it.
    Nobody has knocked you. Sure, not everyone agreed with you, but you're making a position for yourself to influence very vulnerable people and we wouldn't be doing our jobs as decent human beings if we didn't question that. Nobody is trying to put you down, I promise you, we're just looking out for you.

    And don't forget, I'm from where you're from. I grew up in it, lived most of my life in it and was once one of the very people you're looking to help now. I know and understand that feeling of urgency in wanting to help, I've been there, I get it. The same place, the same people, the same problems.

    We're all on your side here, I assure you :)
    I'll take you for your word. :)

  • I'll take you for your word. :)
    Think of it this way - people wouldn't bother taking the time to comment if they didn't care :)


  • With all due respect, I don't think anyone disagrees with your idea of helping people. I think that it's not clear exactly what you'd do to help people, and in trying to get at what that would be, a lot of back and forth happens--it might sound negative, but going back and forth is just a way to gain perspective in the absence of examples (and I don't blame you for not providing examples yet, I'm just saying that without them all we can do is debate and guess).

    I guess a question I would have is "What would be Buddhist about your approach?" Not that it has to be Buddhist, but you've framed it as being rooted in Buddhism. The specific question would be, "How would your method differ from a Christian's?"

    For me this is an important topic, because while both Christianity and Buddhism can teach loving-kindness, talk about it, encourage it, the foundation--and therefore the likelihood of permanent success, in my opinion--can be different. It's the whole blind faith versus reasoned faith thing.

    Now, you don't have to make your program specifically Buddhist, I'm not saying that. But since you've said that's kind of what you're about, I would expect something specifically Buddhist about your approach, since I'm assuming that you, like I, place greater hope in a Buddhist approach versus a Christian approach. I'm not talking religion here, I'm talking underlying philosophy once the religious aspects are stripped away.

    The way I see it, the Christian starts with, "You should be loving and kind because God is a God of love, and He wants you to be." When you strip away the religious part, it becomes simply, "You should be loving and kind."

    The Buddhist may start with, "If you practice loving-kindness [two subtle differences, right off the bat] because, as the Buddha taught, and for reasons we can prove, you will be happier." Strip away the religion, and you get, "If you practice loving-kindness, you will be happier."

    The Buddhist approach, by incorporating reason--and a compelling one--into the argument, seems to me to have the better chance (as opposed to the approach that says "you should...just because.")
    I think my opening post above makes it clear that I am advocating reasoned loving kindness. For each of the five core qualities I outlined I gave a solid, understandable as to why they are so important and should be practiced.

    How am I going to help people? I personally like to place myself in situations where love is most needed. Two years ago I began volunteering with addicts, and now, after some rest time, I would like to work with sex offenders or teens with behavioural problems, although i'm looking to become a foster parent so that would cover that. Anyway, I like to go with love to where others might not. Most people don't want to go and work with sex offenders, but I think the whole point of love is that you take it where it is needed, like a light in the dark. And by taking your love where others refuse to love or even deny that certain people deserve to be loved means that it gets noticed. But this is not an ego thing! Jesus did not get nailed to the cross with the thought 'oooh this is a great chance to create a legacy for myself and be remembered for all time', he got nailed to the cross to show an example of glorious love. God's love changed my life, and my life is dedicated to sharing that love with all, if that is interpreted as ego or pride then so be it... Mannn, I have become so defensive here! Anyway, my philosophy is that if you take love to the hardest places to love then it will get the most attention and you are most likely to influence others to love too. It's that simple.

  • I'll take you for your word. :)
    Think of it this way - people wouldn't bother taking the time to comment if they didn't care :)
    Hmmm.

    :P

  • SileSile Veteran
    ...I like to go with love to where others might not.
    Beautiful statement.
  • SileSile Veteran
    edited August 2012
    And by taking your love where others refuse to love or even deny that certain people deserve to be loved means that it gets noticed. But this is not an ego thing! Jesus did not get nailed to the cross with the thought 'oooh this is a great chance to create a legacy for myself and be remembered for all time', he got nailed to the cross to show an example of glorious love. God's love changed my life, and my life is dedicated to sharing that love with all, if that is interpreted as ego or pride then so be it... Mannn, I have become so defensive here! Anyway, my philosophy is that if you take love to the hardest places to love then it will get the most attention and you are most likely to influence others to love too. It's that simple.
    This makes it a lot clearer - "masses" sounds like "people in general," and since some of those people in general have varying levels of exposure to Buddhism already, when you said "slicing up Buddhism" it sounded a bit as if you may want to go into existing programs and change them somehow, because they were faulty or still have aspects of Eastern culture. But now it's clear you're talking about going places where Buddhism largely hasn't been, or where loving-kindness is specifically lacking, and that sounds good to me.

    I also see I didn't recognize some of the reasoning you'd already supplied--my bad!

  • I was just out on my bike and imagined this little conversation with the Buddha which I think may bring more clarity to this discussion...

    MAR: Hey Buddha, mate, how's things?

    Bud: I'm good, i'm good, y'know, enlightenment, perfect, ever-new bliss etc. etc. It's nice... How are you?

    MAR: Hmmm, i'm okay... Y'know, where I live, there is so much suffering, and it's getting worse with all these economic cuts, and I really want to do what I can to help ease some of their suffering, and, well, I think your teachings could help so much...

    Bud: So, what is the problem?

    MAR: Well, whenever I mention 'Buddhism' people turn away, and when I explain karma to them they look confused, and worst of all, when I suggest they meditate they just laugh at me and tell me to go hug a tree. It's a shame, because I think they'd really benefit from your teachings.

    Bud: Okay, have you thought about maybe not mentioning 'Buddhism' or trying to explain karma or encouraging people to meditate? I mean, if they don't want to know then why bother to push it? Why not find teachings that they can understand and then explain them in a language that they understand and can relate to?

    MAR: Because those things are what make up Buddhism, if I didn't promote them then I wouldn't truly be promoting Buddhism, would I? I don't want to disrespect your teachings, and who am I to pick and choose which teachings and practices should be shared?

    Bud: But you wish to relieve their suffering, right?

    MAR: Well, yeah.

    Bud: Then do whatever it takes to relieve suffering, and stop being such a precious little bitch.

    :D
  • howhow Veteran Veteran
    edited August 2012
    @mindatrisk
    I didn't read anyone hold your aspirations up for a critique, that they would not hold their own up to. Allowing that the ego manifests where ever it can, is just an unavoidable meditative observation.

    Holding your aspirations up to Buddhist reasoning is of little help if the fundamental Buddhist basic's like the 4 noble truths are not acceptable to you.

    BUT...
    You'd like to relieve suffering.
    You'd like to do this without the unpopular taints of Jesus or Buddha?
    Isn't this just what Humanists do? Krishnamurti?
    Why aren't their developments workable for you?








  • @mindatrisk
    I didn't read anyone hold your aspirations up for a critique, that they would not hold their own up to. Allowing that the ego manifests where ever it can, is just an unavoidable meditative observation.

    Holding your aspirations up to Buddhist reasoning is of little help if the fundamental Buddhist basic's like the 4 noble truths are not acceptable to you.

    BUT...
    You'd like to relieve suffering.
    You'd like to do this without the unpopular taints of Jesus or Buddha?
    Isn't this just what Humanists do?
    Why aren't their developments agreeable to you?

    I've never looked into humanists so they are neither agreeable or disagreeable, but i'll give them a Google, thanks. :) All in all, though, i'm not bothered what the sources are of what works. Sometimes with people I may offer an adapted, non-religious Christ teaching, at others time the same with Hinduism, or Buddhism, or New Age-ism, etc. At others times I share the source, but only if I feel that will work better. I don't mind what the source is, nor am I concerned about paying lip service to the source or respecting their traditions, I am simply interested in what ends suffering and what brings happiness, and nothing else matters, because, to me, there is too much suffering in the world to deny an opportunity to help someone just because someone far removed might be offended that their faith, beliefs, philosophies are being adapted.

    And, I have loved the criticism and welcomed it! But it has frustrated me a little when people have taken liberties with what i've said, and when people start questioning my motives, because I am no different to the millions of other people on this planet wanting to help others, but it seemed that my reasons for doing so had some big question mark over them, and i'm not sure why. I just don't think it is possible or fair to make character assessments based on some words on a screen. But like I said, I don't mind, people are free to do as they please, and it's for me to look at my own responses and actions, not concern myself too much with how others wish to behave. I'm just an ideas person, and I argue the ideas, not the person. I think that anyone who is on a Buddhist website should be given the broad benefit of the doubt that mostly their motives are well intentioned. I may have some confusion in those motives, but who doesn't? I really don't understand a lot of what has been posted in these threads from people or why they'd post it.
  • SileSile Veteran
    I really don't understand a lot of what has been posted in these threads from people or why they'd post it.
    I think, as with any discussion, without more specifics the mind can go in many directions. Without specifics to rein the discussion in, then, too many variables pop up. People may react the way they do because they're imagining things which are possible, but are not your intent, yet haven't been addressed.

    I always think it's interesting, with any new project, to as what "Day 1" would look like, or even "Hour 1." That gets it out of the theory stage, and more towards application, where things get clearer, I think.

  • SileSile Veteran
    edited August 2012
    Btw, all my great ideas which crashed and burned, I had to fight for in the beginning. And all my great ideas which succeeded, I had to fight for in the beginning, lol.

    We Buddhists aren't much different from anyone else--fearful, hopeful, suspicious, encouraging--this is only a small test group which you can observe responding to your idea. Everyone brings their own experience to it, which is really valuable info for someone starting a project. For every user on this forum, I imagine, there will be that type of personality in your first classes (classes is an assumption--I don't know what you're thinking of as far as the mechanism for getting this information rolling). Chances are, especially if you are working in populations which have had a hard go of it, you could even meet with outright hostility--but that's just fear. I have no doubt that many of the concepts you're proposing will be embraced by many, too.

    If a new idea isn't greeted with tons of questioning and analysis, it's probably not a very new idea--so I'd take that as a good sign!
  • Thanks, Sile. In alignment with my opening post, I won't be trying to teach anything until I am fully practicing it and a true example of it. If people see me as a happy individual who is tolerant and patient etc. etc. then they will ask me how, and then maybe I will share the above ideas and maybe then they'll take them onboard themselves, and as such this could grow, but I still have work to do on myself, most of which just comes down to overcoming my own self-doubts, because they are what sabotages most of my growth and efforts to make a difference. But that's okay, i'm only 29, and i'm practicing hard to overcome those feelings.

    I know this is a bit of a generalisation, but I do think it would be very helpful to society if more Buddhists engaged with social causes where their loving kindness would be so beneficial. Christians are fantastic at making real efforts in communities, and so are Muslims, but Buddhists - to me - are too insular, and should be making much more of an effort to engage with those in need. In doing so, I think they'd find their practice coming on massively.
  • it is advisable to read 'salleka sutta' in which we can find all bad qulities within us

    if we do not know what is bad in us how can we get rid of it?

    think about:
    jelouse which stem from hate
    telling lies which stem from greed
    talking nonsense which stem from delusion


  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited August 2012
    ....
    Bud: But you wish to relieve their suffering, right?

    MAR: Well, yeah.

    Bud: Then do whatever it takes to relieve suffering, and stop being such a precious little bitch.

    :D
    This made me laugh, but you know what?

    You've hit the nail on the head.

    You know all those prissy little quotations:
    'Walk the talk', 'do or do not, there is no try', 'actions speak louder than words'... they all hinge on less talk more action.

    If you want to pass on any form of message and influence to others - don't 'say' anything.

    'Do' what you do, and let how you live, interact with others and engage with life, be the testimony you need it to be.

    You can talk to people until they're blue in the face, unless they 'see' it in action, and can witness for themselves that what you do - works - all it is, to them, is preaching.
    and sometimes, hearing stuff is not what they need.
    What they need is living proof.

    you want people to get your message?
    OK.
    You first - but you have to keep it up, and practice it 100%, 100% of the time, for it to be convincing.....
    Let's look at your list:

    Idea One - Attraction, not promotion.

    Be a haven of calm in a stormy sea. wherever you are, whatever you're doing, speak softly, with compassion and tolerance.

    Idea Two - Take our light to where it is dark.

    Smile. a lot.
    and with your eyes.

    Idea Three - Practice, practice, practice…
    Do, do, do.

    But don't confuse being Buddhist with being a doormat.
    Being compassionate and practising loving-kindness, doesn't mean bending over backwards to please everyone.

    1. Tolerance
    2. Patience
    3. Forgiveness
    4. Empathy
    5. Compassion


    You forgot Acceptance....

    and the first person you should always, unconditionally direct these practices towards - is yourself.
  • ....
    Bud: But you wish to relieve their suffering, right?

    MAR: Well, yeah.

    Bud: Then do whatever it takes to relieve suffering, and stop being such a precious little bitch.

    :D
    This made me laugh, but you know what?

    You've hit the nail on the head.

    You know all those prissy little quotations:
    'Walk the talk', 'do or do not, there is no try', 'actions speak louder than words'... they all hinge on less talk more action.

    If you want to pass on any form of message and influence to others - don't 'say' anything.

    'Do' what you do, and let how you live, interact with others and engage with life, be the testimony you need it to be.

    You can talk to people until they're blue in the face, unless they 'see' it in action, and can witness for themselves that what you do - works - all it is, to them, is preaching.
    and sometimes, hearing stuff is not what they need.
    What they need is living proof.

    you want people to get your message?
    OK.
    You first - but you have to keep it up, and practice it 100%, 100% of the time, for it to be convincing.....
    Let's look at your list:

    Idea One - Attraction, not promotion.

    Be a haven of calm in a stormy sea. wherever you are, whatever you're doing, speak softly, with compassion and tolerance.

    Idea Two - Take our light to where it is dark.

    Smile. a lot.
    and with your eyes.

    Idea Three - Practice, practice, practice…
    Do, do, do.

    But don't confuse being Buddhist with being a doormat.
    Being compassionate and practising loving-kindness, doesn't mean bending over backwards to please everyone.

    1. Tolerance
    2. Patience
    3. Forgiveness
    4. Empathy
    5. Compassion


    You forgot Acceptance....

    and the first person you should always, unconditionally direct these practices towards - is yourself.
    Hmmm. I like you. I agree completely. I feel like I do set a good example in my daily life - not great, but getting better, and probably still some way to go before I turn any heads. It's a bit difficult within a forum to demonstrate your walk, but I have tried my best over these two threads to be an example of patience and humility, although I have felt a little frustrated at times with certain things.

    I'm in a bit of downtime at the moment, spending a lot of time in meditation and reflection, because there are internal obstacles - like self-doubt, self worth etc. that are creating a false ceiling for me, because whenever I push forwards to spread more love and compassion and try to make more of a difference, I get freaked out and insecure and pull out and hide. And so acceptance is vital, and something that this year I have worked really hard on, to the point of purposefully participating in certain activities that aren't good for me but just so I could practice accepting myself no matter what.

    You speak a lot of sense, and I feel the kindness and love in your words, so thank you for taking the time to share your thoughts with me. :)
  • This quote below sums my feelings up...

    Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate.
    Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure.
    It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us.
    We ask ourselves, Who am I to be brilliant,
    gorgeous, talented, fabulous?
    Actually, who are you not to be?
    You are a child of God.
    Your playing small does not serve the world.
    There is nothing enlightened about shrinking
    so that other people won't feel insecure around you.
    We are all meant to shine, as children do.
    We were born to make manifest the glory of God that is within us.
    It is not just in some of us; it is in everyone.
    And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously
    give other people permission to do the same.
    As we are liberated from our own fear,
    our presence automatically liberates others.
  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran

    Yeah we have plenty of meditation classes, but Middlesbrough is a pretty big place. We have lots of churches, a strong Muslim presence, Hindu's, some Buddhism etc. But asides from the Christians, there is very little integration between spiritual sections and the general population who really do need some spiritual nourishment but who are generally adverse to such things... hence my interest in establishing something a little more under the radar.
    If you want to develop something non-religious, is humanism worth exploring? It would be a shame to spend a lot of energy re-inventing the wheel if there is something already out there that could provide well, at least a starting point?
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