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wrathful deities

sovasova delocalized fractyllic harmonizing Veteran
edited August 2012 in Philosophy
reading at http://www.palyul.org/eng_teachings-guruyoga.htm#rely

brought a question I've had before to mind; what does "wrathful" mean in the context of buddha meditation [deities] ?
... If one wishes to enact wrathful activity, one meditates upon the lama as inseparable from Vajrabhairava or any of the more wrathful yidams. ....

Comments

  • The head houses the sense organs.

    That is where the wraithful dieties dwell.

    In this context all movement is the activity of the wraithful energy.
  • PatrPatr Veteran
    Dont know what you guys read!!

    Wrathful means dharma protectors, ex demons who were subdued and converted to Buddhism. Their fierce, combative nature is called upon to provide protection for practitioners and special dispensations.
    Only to be practiced under masters and advanced practitioners.

    Example is to rear a lion as guard dog, if you cant handle, will consume you one day.
    Quite prevalent in vajrayana, but not for everyone, steer clear.
    zsc
  • Yes, I agree with @Patr in that Wrathful means Dharma Protectors... however they are not ex demons but rather manifestations of supreme beings, such as Vajrabhairava. I would not try to invoke or mediate on any of the wrathful manifestations unless you receive the proper empowerments and initiations. These practices require rigorous daily commitments along with annual retreats; and even gazing upon their image without these empowerments is not recommended.
    zscJohnG
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    I'm glad we all believe in Buddhism as a more scientific religion.
    zsclobsterInc88
  • Yes different forms of energy which surround your mandala. They carry out the actvities we all experience.

    But they are not apart from you.
    zsc
  • http://www.shambhalasun.com/index.php?option=content&task=view&id=1658&Itemid=0&limit=1&limitstart=0

    Heres a great article about vajrayana and energy and how it all relates to qualities we all have or don't.
  • howhow Veteran Veteran
    Patr said:

    Dont know what you guys read!!

    Wrathful means dharma protectors, ex demons who were subdued and converted to Buddhism. Their fierce, combative nature is called upon to provide protection for practitioners and special dispensations.
    Only to be practiced under masters and advanced practitioners.

    Example is to rear a lion as guard dog, if you cant handle, will consume you one day.
    Quite prevalent in vajrayana, but not for everyone, steer clear.

    And here I thought it was just to stop visitors from kicking the tires.
  • sovasova delocalized fractyllic harmonizing Veteran
    taiyaki said:

    http://www.shambhalasun.com/index.php?option=content&task=view&id=1658&Itemid=0&limit=1&limitstart=0

    Heres a great article about vajrayana and energy and how it all relates to qualities we all have or don't.

    Thank you for the link, @taiyaki, it cleared up a lot of my confusion on the matter.
  • cazcaz Veteran United Kingdom Veteran
    Wrathful Deities are mainly manifestations of Buddha they appear in a wrathful form to demonstrate their swiftness in dealing with practitioners problems mainly deluded minds.
    zsc
  • SileSile Veteran
    From Thubten Chodron's How to Free Your Mind: Tara the Liberator:

    "Why are there fierce protectors? Peaceful deities such as Tara have a certain energy that calms and gladdens our mind. But sometimes our mind is so belligerent and stuck that we need the kind of energy that goes "Pow!" to wake us up or to pull us out of unproductive behavior. For this reason, the Buddhas' wisdom and compassion appear in the form of these wrathful deities to demonstrate clean-clear wisdom and compassion that act directly. This active wisdom doesn't vacillate and pamper us. This wisdom doesn't say, "Well, maybe," or, "Poor you. You deserve to be treated well, not like that horrible person treated you." Instead, it's forceful: "Cut it out! Stop those false expectations and preconceptions right now!" Sometimes we need that strong, wise energy to be in our face to wake us up to the fact that our afflictions and old patterns of thought and behavior are making us miserable."

    And from Berzin:

    Peaceful and Forceful Figures

    Buddha-figures may be peaceful or forceful, as indicated on the simplest level by their having smiles on their faces or fangs bared. More elaborately, forceful figures have terrifying faces, hold an arsenal of weapons, and stand surrounded by flames. Descriptions of them specify in gory detail various ways in which they smash their enemies. Part of the confusion that arises about the role and intent of these forceful figures comes from the usual translations of the word for them, trowo (khro-bo, Skt. kroddha), as angry or wrathful deities.

    For many Westerners with a Biblical upbringing, the term wrathful deity carries the connotation of an almighty being with righteous vengeful anger. Such a being metes out divine punishment as retribution for evildoers who have disobeyed its laws or somehow offended it. For some people, a wrathful deity may even connote the Devil or a demon working on the side of darkness. The Buddhist concept has nothing to do with such notions. Although the Tibetan term derives from one of the usual words for anger, anger here has more the connotation of repulsion - a rough state of mind directed toward an object with the wish to get rid of it. Thus, a more appropriate translation for "trowo" might be a forceful figure.

    Forceful figures symbolize the strong energetic means often required to break through mental and emotional blocks that prevent one from being clearheaded or compassionate. The enemies the figures smash include dullness, laziness, and self-centeredness. The weapons they use span positive qualities developed along the spiritual path, such as concentration, enthusiasm, and love. The flames that surround them are the different types of deep awareness (yeshey, ye-shes; Skt. jnana, wisdom) that burn away obscurations. Imagining oneself as a forceful figure helps to harness the mental energy and resolve to overcome "internal enemies."
    personJohnG
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    vinlyn said:

    I'm glad we all believe in Buddhism as a more scientific religion.

    @vinlyin, Where do you liberally get to use the term 'all'....?

    What different traditions teach, is what they teach. Nobody says you have to prescribe to it, believe it or interpret it in the same way as anyone else....
    If you don't personally adhere to such concepts - I would respectfully suggest you leave it to people who do, to discuss.

    it's no skin off your nose, is it....?

    ;)
    zsc
  • sovasova delocalized fractyllic harmonizing Veteran
    Sile said:


    "Why are there fierce protectors? Peaceful deities such as Tara have a certain energy that calms and gladdens our mind. But sometimes our mind is so belligerent and stuck that we need the kind of energy that goes "Pow!" to wake us up or to pull us out of unproductive behavior. For this reason, the Buddhas' wisdom and compassion appear in the form of these wrathful deities to demonstrate clean-clear wisdom and compassion that act directly. This active wisdom doesn't vacillate and pamper us. This wisdom doesn't say, "Well, maybe," or, "Poor you. You deserve to be treated well, not like that horrible person treated you." Instead, it's forceful: "Cut it out! Stop those false expectations and preconceptions right now!" Sometimes we need that strong, wise energy to be in our face to wake us up to the fact that our afflictions and old patterns of thought and behavior are making us miserable."

    [and berzin:]
    ...Forceful figures symbolize the strong energetic means often required to break through mental and emotional blocks that prevent one from being clearheaded or compassionate. The enemies the figures smash include dullness, laziness, and self-centeredness. The weapons they use span positive qualities developed along the spiritual path, such as concentration, enthusiasm, and love. The flames that surround them are the different types of deep awareness (yeshey, ye-shes; Skt. jnana, wisdom) that burn away obscurations. Imagining oneself as a forceful figure helps to harness the mental energy and resolve to overcome "internal enemies."

    Thanks @Sile! Very helpful information!

    Last night I found the PDF of "The Five Buddha Families" by Thrangu Rinpoche. In combo with the article @taiyaki posted earlier I have found it really good reading ^.^

    (5families attached)
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    federica said:

    vinlyn said:

    I'm glad we all believe in Buddhism as a more scientific religion.

    @vinlyin, Where do you liberally get to use the term 'all'....?

    What different traditions teach, is what they teach. Nobody says you have to prescribe to it, believe it or interpret it in the same way as anyone else....
    If you don't personally adhere to such concepts - I would respectfully suggest you leave it to people who do, to discuss.

    it's no skin off your nose, is it....?

    ;)
    I am just pointing out that we often talk about the scientific nature of Buddhism, while here we are also talking about beings that we can't prove exist. Which is okay, but in the larger scheme of our discussions seems a bit problematic. But we all, including me, believe things that may not have been proven, so we are all not consistent in our beliefs. Of course, I am using the word all, where I probably should say most or many.

  • SileSile Veteran
    vinlyn said:

    federica said:

    vinlyn said:

    I'm glad we all believe in Buddhism as a more scientific religion.

    @vinlyin, Where do you liberally get to use the term 'all'....?

    What different traditions teach, is what they teach. Nobody says you have to prescribe to it, believe it or interpret it in the same way as anyone else....
    If you don't personally adhere to such concepts - I would respectfully suggest you leave it to people who do, to discuss.

    it's no skin off your nose, is it....?

    ;)
    I am just pointing out that we often talk about the scientific nature of Buddhism, while here we are also talking about beings that we can't prove exist. Which is okay, but in the larger scheme of our discussions seems a bit problematic. But we all, including me, believe things that may not have been proven, so we are all not consistent in our beliefs. Of course, I am using the word all, where I probably should say most or many.

    We can't prove compassion exists, at least not in the sense we generally mean "prove," i.e. measure, weigh, photograph, etc. But we can go thru a series of steps to test the likelihood.

    zsc
  • There are also wrathful Buddhas who are not Dharma Protectors like the Anuttarayoga Tantric deities, Guhyasamāja, Yamantaka, Cakrasaṃvara, Hevajra, Kalacakra and also other Higher Tantric deities like Vajrayogini.

    Of course i realise that non-Vajrayana Buddhists do not subscribe to these Yidams but they exist in Vajrayana. Whether you can prove that they exist or not - there are Vajrayana High Lamas who can see them though of course it is cannot be proved on a scientific basis.
    caz
  • Patr said:

    Dont know what you guys read!!

    Wrathful means dharma protectors, ex demons who were subdued and converted to Buddhism. Their fierce, combative nature is called upon to provide protection for practitioners and special dispensations.
    Only to be practiced under masters and advanced practitioners.

    Example is to rear a lion as guard dog, if you cant handle, will consume you one day.
    Quite prevalent in vajrayana, but not for everyone, steer clear.

    There are enlightened and unenlightened Dharma Protectors. I would suggest that people steer clear of the unenlightened ones as they are unreliable but rely on enlightened Dharma Protectors such as:
    - six-armed Mahakala, who is an emanation of Avalokiteshvara, the Buddha of Compassion
    - Dorje Shugden, who is an emanation of Manjushri, the Buddha of Wisdom
    - Setrap, who is an emanation of Amitabha, the Buddha of longevity

    Wrath represents speed and how fast these deities can help you remove obstacles and protect you on your dharma path. It's like a mother's anger at a misbehaving child - when she is angry, the child will pay more attention and more likely to stop what he or she is doing. In the case of the Buddhas, they will display vajra anger, which is an anger different from our anger which comes from delusion but their anger comes from pure compassion.

    caz
  • Everyone must practice at their own pace, speeding to your destination is ill-advised.
    Lay practitioners have no gauge of their spiritual abilities, and not all 'masters' are capable of doling out good advice.

    Helping to remove obstacles is a very general term, do you know how its done?
    The deity comes down and assume your karmic debts, think again.

    Here speed, means speeding up your own karmic retribution, OK for a monk, but can you take it, especially if you havent a clue of your karmic debt load.

    Thats why I said, not for lay practitioners. A truly talented Guru would surely advise against protector practice, at least until you're really ready.

    Why not just practice Avalokiteswara, Manjushri and Amitabha Buddha instead.
    Speeding is unsafe......
    lobster
  • lobsterlobster Crusty Veteran
    edited February 2013
    I Love wrathful deities. Delicious with the right dip, a side salad and a finger snap ability to dismiss.
    . . . If you are frightened of fried demons . . . Then stay out of their kitchen . . .

    what is this? Cooking recipes for the deluded . . .
    Patr
  • @Patr - thanks for raising these questions :) this is my take on it...
    Patr said:

    Everyone must practice at their own pace, speeding to your destination is ill-advised.

    I fully agree with you here. Everyone should practice at their own pace and the results will be at the pace of the practitioner. For example, if you want to be an olympic athlete, then training once a month won't get you there but daily, gruelling training will.

    However, not everyone wants to be an Olympic athlete. Some just want to be a county champion, and you train accordingly for that. Or you just want to play badminton once a month with your friends for fun, then you just do that. There's no right or wrong about it. It's up to each person's choice.
    Patr said:



    Lay practitioners have no gauge of their spiritual abilities, and not all 'masters' are capable of doling out good advice.

    Exactly because lay practitioners have no gauge that you need a good teacher. And yes not all teachers are capable so you must assess a teacher well according to observable qualities. Is the teacher consistent? What is his lineage? Is he knowledgeable? Patient? etc. It is advised to check out a teacher and for the teacher also to check out the student to make sure that the teacher-student relationship can be maintained. There are many people who just jump on the bandwagon of a charismatic teacher but that is not the advised method of picking a teacher.
    Patr said:


    Helping to remove obstacles is a very general term, do you know how its done?
    The deity comes down and assume your karmic debts, think again.

    Even Buddha cannot remove our negative karma so I have read that how it is done is that the Dharma Protector delays the fruition of our negative karma, giving us the opportunity to clear it. For example, if we are karmically destined to have a fatal illness at age 30, if we have been doing our practice diligently and sincerely, the Dharma Protector will delay it for maybe a year. In the meantime, we can do purification practices such as the 35 confessional buddhas, prostration retreats etc which would be advised by your teacher according to your needs. Then by the time the fatal illness is supposed to hit you, it manifests as a cold or a heavy flu perhaps. This is because you have already purified the karma for that fatal illness.
    Patr said:


    Here speed, means speeding up your own karmic retribution, OK for a monk, but can you take it, especially if you havent a clue of your karmic debt load.

    Thats why I said, not for lay practitioners. A truly talented Guru would surely advise against protector practice, at least until you're really ready.

    Yes that's why a teacher is good to have :) There are practices which require empowerments and those that don't. Dorje Shugden practice does not require initiations so anyone can practice. This is what i have been told by some Tibetan teachers.

    Again, it is not mandatory - it's up to each person if they want to. The important thing is to not just take any protector but an enlightened one, because they will never harm you.
    Patr said:


    Why not just practice Avalokiteswara, Manjushri and Amitabha Buddha instead.
    Speeding is unsafe......

    Yes we should practice these meditational deities. For example, my meditational deity is Lama Tsongkhapa (who is Manjushri, Avalokiteshvara and Vajrapani combined). But in order to speed up (i do like speed :)) my dharma journey, i propitiate Dorje Shugden to help me on my path.

    Again, i stress that it is an individual choice but if the great Tibetan masters have followed it, it's okay for me.
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