Welcome home! Please contact lincoln@icrontic.com if you have any difficulty logging in or using the site. New registrations must be manually approved which may take several days. Can't log in? Try clearing your browser's cookies.
Sex,
OneLifeForm
Veteran
for me, I find to be absolute insanity.
Whenever I have had sex in the past I would get really spun out in all kinds of ways.
I am sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo grateful that none of the people I've been with in the past got pregnant when with me.
I do not have a facebook but my mother does and she was showing me some things on there that an old friend of mine posted and I decided to search for some people I havent seen in a while.
All of my ex g/fs have given birth now!
Children having children.
It is a source of immense gratitude for me to contemplate my not having children and my abstinence from sex is something I hold very close because I see the dangers of what happens when I engage in such a way. Never once did I ever "make love" nor do I care to ever do that.. whatever it is hehehehe
I find sex to be an extreme hindrance and in no way do I view it as a skillful activity.
When engaging in such activities I seem to not be interested at all in my spiritual practice and will willingly push it to the side to continue engaging in said activities.
There are a lot of people that seem to survive having sex and do alright with their lives.. I own that book "The Passionate Buddha" by Robert Sachs and have read many other things on related topics..
I for one seem unable to "have my cake and eat it too".
So I will just keep my cake in the refrigerator for now.
I noticed too, how sexual activity blurs how I view another being. It exaggerates how "attractive" they are to me.
Every time after being done with a "relationship" and seeing the partner after we've been broken up I've been apalled as in they don't look so good to me.. is that really what they look like.. oh dear..
Reality points out that nobody is attractive.. can't find it anywhere.
Sexual activity for me is cultivating delusion.. I have to willingly engage in pretending to be aroused and excited to be wrapping myself up in the sticky blanket known as samsara.
From an interview with Bhante Henepola Gunaratana
-Even laypeople have to live a disciplined life; they have to exercise a certain restraint. And that's why for laypeople there are the precepts to observe; but ordinary laypeople are not supposed to observe celibacy. Laypeople can attain certain stages of enlightenment—what we call "stream- enterer" and "once-returner"—before they have realized for themselves that there are inherent difficulties and problems involved in sexual activities. And laypeople can attain even the third stage of sainthood, which is called the "never-returner" stage. But soon after they attain that stage they themselves will decide from their own experience, from their own understanding, that involvement in sexuality is going to block the progress of their spiritual practice, and when they realize this they will voluntarily give up sexual activities. So you see, celibacy is not something that can be imposed upon us by force or command.
Buddha taught that as long as one is engaged in sexual activity, one would not be interested in practicing spiritual life; these two just don't go together. But when he gave his gradual enlightenment teaching, he also said that the sensation of lust, of sexuality, has pleasure. He did not deny the pleasure. It has pleasure. But then, you see, that very pleasure turns into displeasure, and gradually, slowly, as the initial fever of lust wears out, people begin to fight. Because out of lust arises fear; out of lust arises greed; out of lust arises jealousy, anger, hatred, confusion and fighting; all these negative things arise from lust. And therefore these negative things are inherent in lust. And if we want to see this, you know, we don't have to look any further than our own society. Just open your eyes and look around. How many millions of people are fighting? And it is only based on their lust and greed—husbands, wives; boyfriends, girlfriends; boyfriends, boyfriends; girlfriends, girlfriends—and so on, you see? Whether you are heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual, it doesn't matter. As long as you are in it, it is inevitable that you will have these problems—fighting, disappointment, anger, hatred, killing—all these are involved.
Therefore, because he saw the inherent problem in sexuality, Buddha said that it is better to control and discipline our senses in order to have a calm and peaceful life. But one has to do this gradually, slowly, only through understanding and not abruptly. It cannot be forced. It has to be done gradually and with deep understanding. If people do not understand this and try to stop it all of a sudden, they will get more frustration, more fear and so forth. And therefore in his gradual teaching, he said that first there is the pleasure in sexual activities, and then there are the disadvantages, then there are the problems. And only when you see the problems, only then do you begin to realize that these disadvantages, this negativity, are inherent in sexuality—they are intrinsic. These troubles, these problems, are intrinsic to lust.
From "The Life of the Buddha":
-"Misguided man, it were better for you (as one gone forth) that your member should enter the mouth of a hideous, venomous viper or cobra than that it should enter a woman. It were better for you that your member should enter a pit of coals burning, blazing and glowing than that it should enter a woman. Why is that? For the former reason you would risk death or deadly suffering, but you would not, on the dissolution of the body after death, reappear in a state of privation, in an unhappy destination, in perdition, even in hell."
http://www.enlightennext.org/magazine/j13/bhante.asp?page=2
I have a healthy fear of what I have found myself to be capable of.
They say there is no pillow softer than a clear conscience.
I do not even use a pillow anymore when sleeping at night but I can really relate to that saying.
I have a clear conscience today.. truly amazing!
Whenever I have had sex in the past I would get really spun out in all kinds of ways.
I am sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo grateful that none of the people I've been with in the past got pregnant when with me.
I do not have a facebook but my mother does and she was showing me some things on there that an old friend of mine posted and I decided to search for some people I havent seen in a while.
All of my ex g/fs have given birth now!
Children having children.
It is a source of immense gratitude for me to contemplate my not having children and my abstinence from sex is something I hold very close because I see the dangers of what happens when I engage in such a way. Never once did I ever "make love" nor do I care to ever do that.. whatever it is hehehehe
I find sex to be an extreme hindrance and in no way do I view it as a skillful activity.
When engaging in such activities I seem to not be interested at all in my spiritual practice and will willingly push it to the side to continue engaging in said activities.
There are a lot of people that seem to survive having sex and do alright with their lives.. I own that book "The Passionate Buddha" by Robert Sachs and have read many other things on related topics..
I for one seem unable to "have my cake and eat it too".
So I will just keep my cake in the refrigerator for now.
I noticed too, how sexual activity blurs how I view another being. It exaggerates how "attractive" they are to me.
Every time after being done with a "relationship" and seeing the partner after we've been broken up I've been apalled as in they don't look so good to me.. is that really what they look like.. oh dear..
Reality points out that nobody is attractive.. can't find it anywhere.
Sexual activity for me is cultivating delusion.. I have to willingly engage in pretending to be aroused and excited to be wrapping myself up in the sticky blanket known as samsara.
From an interview with Bhante Henepola Gunaratana
-Even laypeople have to live a disciplined life; they have to exercise a certain restraint. And that's why for laypeople there are the precepts to observe; but ordinary laypeople are not supposed to observe celibacy. Laypeople can attain certain stages of enlightenment—what we call "stream- enterer" and "once-returner"—before they have realized for themselves that there are inherent difficulties and problems involved in sexual activities. And laypeople can attain even the third stage of sainthood, which is called the "never-returner" stage. But soon after they attain that stage they themselves will decide from their own experience, from their own understanding, that involvement in sexuality is going to block the progress of their spiritual practice, and when they realize this they will voluntarily give up sexual activities. So you see, celibacy is not something that can be imposed upon us by force or command.
Buddha taught that as long as one is engaged in sexual activity, one would not be interested in practicing spiritual life; these two just don't go together. But when he gave his gradual enlightenment teaching, he also said that the sensation of lust, of sexuality, has pleasure. He did not deny the pleasure. It has pleasure. But then, you see, that very pleasure turns into displeasure, and gradually, slowly, as the initial fever of lust wears out, people begin to fight. Because out of lust arises fear; out of lust arises greed; out of lust arises jealousy, anger, hatred, confusion and fighting; all these negative things arise from lust. And therefore these negative things are inherent in lust. And if we want to see this, you know, we don't have to look any further than our own society. Just open your eyes and look around. How many millions of people are fighting? And it is only based on their lust and greed—husbands, wives; boyfriends, girlfriends; boyfriends, boyfriends; girlfriends, girlfriends—and so on, you see? Whether you are heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual, it doesn't matter. As long as you are in it, it is inevitable that you will have these problems—fighting, disappointment, anger, hatred, killing—all these are involved.
Therefore, because he saw the inherent problem in sexuality, Buddha said that it is better to control and discipline our senses in order to have a calm and peaceful life. But one has to do this gradually, slowly, only through understanding and not abruptly. It cannot be forced. It has to be done gradually and with deep understanding. If people do not understand this and try to stop it all of a sudden, they will get more frustration, more fear and so forth. And therefore in his gradual teaching, he said that first there is the pleasure in sexual activities, and then there are the disadvantages, then there are the problems. And only when you see the problems, only then do you begin to realize that these disadvantages, this negativity, are inherent in sexuality—they are intrinsic. These troubles, these problems, are intrinsic to lust.
From "The Life of the Buddha":
-"Misguided man, it were better for you (as one gone forth) that your member should enter the mouth of a hideous, venomous viper or cobra than that it should enter a woman. It were better for you that your member should enter a pit of coals burning, blazing and glowing than that it should enter a woman. Why is that? For the former reason you would risk death or deadly suffering, but you would not, on the dissolution of the body after death, reappear in a state of privation, in an unhappy destination, in perdition, even in hell."
http://www.enlightennext.org/magazine/j13/bhante.asp?page=2
I have a healthy fear of what I have found myself to be capable of.
They say there is no pillow softer than a clear conscience.
I do not even use a pillow anymore when sleeping at night but I can really relate to that saying.
I have a clear conscience today.. truly amazing!
3
Comments
Sex has caused me problems - or rather my use of sex has caused me problems in the past - but in good circumstances, it's a positive, not a negative.
I have to disagree with you here. Two words: Victoria's Secret.
Within the context of a relationship, sex is very important. As Tosh said, it's about intimacy and bonding. It brings closeness, and even healing. It's good for the soul.
I have also, like Tosh, used sex innapropriately and have hurt people with it. It's to be treated with caution and care as it can be very powerful. Like a weapon, in and of itself, it's quite harmless, it depends on what you do with it.
Metta!
Just like eating.
Just like reading a nice book.
Intention and care.
Oh and sometimes you just want to fuck and get fucked.
This is the human condition, embrace it or run away. Either way it doesn't give a damn.
I once heard a quote I thought it was from Shakyamuni but it said something like, "Really there is no such thing as a man or a woman."
It took me a while to realize that. Upon contemplation.. what is it that I'm attracted to?
Can't find it.. can't find man, or woman, or house and mouse.. of course though in the conventional sense these things are operating as they do.
Cyclic existence.
I understand that some people have healthy relations within their sexuality and that is great.
For myself, I proceeded directly to the hell realms and my last run in with hell was by far the worst I have ever experienced in the original posts regard.
Sexuality does not contribute to equanimity for me.
Just within the female race it is all separated if I am pursuing such thoughts and behaviors.
There are women that I find attractive, women that I don't find attractive, women I'd like to go out with.. etc. etc. etc.
I've seen myself act differently towards "attractive" people than to people I wasn't attracted to.
That isn't cool and it is so samsarically shallow, identifying with the bodies that are falling apart everyday.
Instead of acting in such ways I want to love everyone just the same.
Not have all the ignorant separation going on that prevents me from further development.
To be in line with reality I must look at it.
We create our own
Good luck in your cultivation!
I'm not saying anyone here, but I have seen people use celibacy as an excuse to run away from their natural sexual desires rather than as a way of transcending them. It's a seemingly small but very important distinction.
So far I think I'm safe, albeit troubled and suffering psychological pain, but I'm working on becoming 'mr right'. As it stands I'm not worthwhile or suitable relationship material and, speaking as a non-monk, being able to become more intimate would be of benefit both to myself and others since I simply cannot function any longer as a human being, and it affects so much of my interpersonal life... something that many people take for granted as 'the norm' without this particular problem.
Wish me luck!
Of course, this is not for everyone and the Buddha recognized this also.
I'll give an example that explains my personal take on it the best.. I used to do drugs and almost killed myself with them. I realized I was about to die and could not live with the usage of any kind of drugs as one would always lead me to an insatiable self destructive appetite for the elusive more.
The usage of sexual activity has been similar to that but not as extreme. I see sexual activity more as like poison ivy/oak/sumac.
Once you itch it spreads and itching continues and continues and is never really satisfied and the rash gets worse and worse.
Quoting Nagarjuna here right along with that tip,
-"When you have an itch you scratch.
But not to itch at all is better than any amount
of scratching."
My revulsion is based solely on personal experience.. some say trial and error.. I say error and error.. repeatedly heheheheheheh
I see no merit in sexual activity though and from logical point of view it makes most sense for me to renounce it.
I have never felt it virtuous to engage in sexual activities of any kind nor did I find my usage of drugs to ever be virtuous.
Robert Sachs in his book The Passionate Buddha talked about various meditations to do when engaging in such activities and I am sure some people get some kind of benefit out of it.
There may be people that can have sex and not have any problems come along with it even in the much more subtle ways.. would have to be a pretty realized person I would think though.
@ownerof1000oddsocks : I can see how learning to be more healthy in such interactions would be of more benefit than would be to just try and avoid it because one is deemed to unhealthy. Good luck most definitely! I wish you well on your journey and hope that you reach your goal with ease.
Thank you everybody who has posted so far, great contributions
In fact somebody told me the last time I had it to take scalding hot showers and blast the rashes with it.
I did and the feeling was equal to if not better than orgasm in some ways.
Is it worth it to have the rash though?
It can be equated well with sex in my opinion.
No it is not worth the rash of poison ivy just to get that good feeling if I have hot showers available and then go back to being unsatisfied an hour later and need to repeat the process.
I forgot earlier, what I was trying to elaborate on is that there are things that are better left avoided altogether.
Where one might see two extremes, one being complete abstinence and the other being sex obsessed, and the middle being somewhere inbetween.
On that tip though it is important for me to type that I need to have my own experience with various things before renouncing it.. sort of of like what @ownerof1000oddsocks was saying.
With regards to everything it doesn't mean I have to go and do whatever it is that I may renounce though.
I could simply read and listen to experience about a particular activity to know that it would be best if I just stayed away from that.. instead of having to test it out myself, and that would be my experience with it. If I saw an activity performed by others that caused harm I could have that healthy revulsion to whatever it is.
For things with sex though and my example of drug usage, I had my own experience, which most human beings do despite what others tell them about these two topics.
We ultimately must do what we feel is best for ourselves.
http://awakeningtruth.org/teachings/talks/167-love-sex-and-awakening-part-ii
many thanks for the encouragement!
x
Jhana trumps sex though, or anything else (except perhaps deeper jhana, or Nirvana itself).
Not even close. Perhaps others can afford richy-rich ice cream, or have godly sex...
sex is great, if you want it, and get some.
sex is dreadful if you want it, don't want to want it , or can't get it.
Kinda like craving...oh, say.... ice cream....
Your relationship with sex is such that you see it as a hindrance and a delusion – you consider it an ‘extreme’ hindrance - this suggests, it’s at the very end of a spectrum of activity that are hindrances to your ultimate goal - consider this carefully - e.g. how much is killing, lying etc a hindrance on the same scale? Consider who sex's extreme bedfellows are for you? Consider all their traits to see whether you have categorised sex well for you.
You point to a fear and dangers – this appears to be linked with procreation rather than sex itself - you’re young – it is not unnatural to feel aversion towards the responsibilities of fatherhood - consider your fear and aversion to the perceived ‘danger’.
Your exploration of the interpretation of ‘reality’ may show you many things about the way that you think - that said, it does not mean that nobody (or nothing) is attractive - attraction on a very basic level is linked to mathematical alignment and you are programmed to recognise this – if you don’t find this attractive then you choose that! If you don’t find that attractive then you choose this!
It sounds like it is your relationship with sex that is causing you concern rather than sex itself – I say this because the issues you point to strike at your relationship with sex rather than to sex itself.
I'll go back to my usage of drugs as an example.
I was a drug addict. The drugs were not my main problem.
They were indicative of a much deeper problem.
If the drugs were my problem then I would be "recovered" now because I don't use anymore.
In the same way sex is not my problem. Attachment, aversion, ignorance.. those are the problems.
If sex were my problem and avoiding it like the plague were the solution then I might be somewhat ok
Though I still hold that sex, for me, is insanity. I understand that we are programmed to find this and that attractive and what not. Doesn't make it something worth perpetuating though. Other things like odors inform us of what to eat and what not to eat. That is very beneficial, it helps us remain alive.
As far as sex goes though that is chaff.
I only used procreation as one example of the gratitude I have for where I am today.
Sex was pleasurable.. very pleasurable. The usage of drugs was quite pleasurable as well.
The last woman I had sex with was married and had two children.. she did eventually get divorced.
It was the most hideous hellish experience I've ever had and yes of course the main problems that led me to such behavior were deeper than a superficial thing like sex but the sex itself was ultimately what really bound me to that situation.
She had the highest sex drive of anyone I've ever been with.. not higher than mine surprisingly.
It was akin to the study with cocaine and monkies.
They were given access to an unlimited supply and they used till they died.
I was given access to great sex whenever I wanted it and I could not stop.
If you went through what I went through you would not be typing quotes around the word danger in regards to sex.
You might be healthier in that area than I am.. I'm willing to bet that most are.. that is ok.
I'm going to press forward in my endeavor of maintaining a clear conscience and treating myself and others the way that I actually want to be treated.
How is sex for me related to killing, lying, etc. etc. ?
It depends. The last relationshiT I was in.. that was right there next to those negative potentials.
I harmed EVERYBODY.
Like a tornado unable to see anything as I spun through a cycle of destruction.
Other times that I've had sex.. yeah they never were a great experience really, certainly less harmful than my last relationshit but still all were harmed in some form.
That is what I want to avoid @Zero .. is harming others.
I've done my fair share of that in this life time alone.
My actions today are born out of a healthy respect for what they cause.
Hope this clarified something
Thank you for responding Zero
Key word
The definition of insanity is...
> one who does the same thing over and over expecting different results.
You're right on the mark about sex being insanity (for people with emotional disorders??!). For you it's insanity! For me, it's insanity, and unfortunately I can exhaust myself mentally because I'm a man and only capable of having a few orgasms per day.
I hate being a sex addict, and I just want a normal relationship where sex is an expression of intimacy not a replacement for it or the main focus. Sexual addiction is a nightmare. It would be easier if I were addicted to crack cocaine.
And I know this is general banter but can we please stop it with the platitudes and flippant remarks. This is a serious issue! :eek2: :eek2: :eek2:
At first I am relatively blind/unaware but I sometimes get to a point with certain actions where I know what it will do and that I will only be hurting later yet I do it anyways.
That is crazy.
It is not an easy thing to tangle with.
I'm not sure what advice I could offer you really besides maintaining some abstinence before getting into a new relationship.
Talk about it with the potential partner.. that would definitely ensure it wouldn't be the same as before.
I have to imagine that you likely jumped into bed quite early into your relationships thus making that the main focus.. not ever really taking the time to get to know who they truly are.. too obsessed with the physical body. Maybe not.
I had sex before even knowing if I really would want to be around them just as friends even and remained in "relationships" for a while. Ultimately they all crashed and burned because I was not in it as they were.
Give yourself some time to heal. That is the best suggestion I can offer.
Had some early (mild) sexual encounters during childhood with other children of both sexes and first had sex at 14 years. I was always interested in love and romance but I think my first 'girlfriend' wanted more of a sex object, but I guess that's what you do when you're young and have no responsibilities. The girls that 'like' liked me, you know, weren't right I figure because I was not right.
So, yes, you're correct... you just didn't know how porn use had affected me. Then I used drugs probably to avoid the emotional pain I was feeling and here I am, many years later, dealing with a similar problem to you.
Thankfully free of drugs now (almost free of porno) and I'm trying to heal and focus my attention on other things!
Thankyou for your warmth and considation
I also find it very helpful to remember what I've learnt through experience; that if I am strongly attached to a view about which I don't have all the facts, that view is probably wrong. And if I am indignant at the idea, that just confirms it.
I'm talking about both sex-positive and anti-sex views here - it's ok to let it go and accept that we don't get it yet. If we did get it, we wouldn't be arguing about it.
And whoever notices the double entendre in the last two sentences has either a dirty or a healthy mind, depending on who you ask
The cycles of suffering are responsible for getting us to the moment we are in now.
It is a beautiful thing when viewed in proper perspective.
Yeah, some things have hurt, some things still hurt, but here we are and we have a chance to be better than we were yesterday!
Keep putting forth effort into living how you feel you should and you'll be alright.
Truth is that you are already alright
Just gotta cut through the mental plays to realize it.
Takes time though which isn't easy to deal with really.
My old friend would quote, "Time wounds all heals" .
Acceptance can arise from the three poisons. That is the moral (morsel) of the thread
If you can't get mr or mrs right, then you either take second best or go home without regret. Of course one could be too perfectionist about it in which case no-one is ever good enough. On the flip side when everyone is good enough, no-0ne is good enough.
Doesn't that explain why the middle way is soo important? Maybe we just can't work on ourselves enough, if we're trapped at either extreme.
My friend often calls me 'all-or nothing'. It's like driving a rocket powered car with no wheel - young dumb and full of cum. At least some of us have a sense of direction, I gather you have at least!
x
hehehehe
You've never even had any sexual thoughts before then?
For the vast majority.. having a partner does not promote the idea of no self. It can actually help to increase illusions of self.
I see what you're saying and for a few people that may be true but what you are typing about is a spiritual ideal and in no way do the 99.9% of the humans on this planet reflect that.
Have you ever seen the movie "Idiocracy"?
That reflects well where we as a whole are headed.
It seems like such a comedic exaggeration but really when you take a look at the way other people are living we are right on track for that kind of widespread retardation.
I'll give you an example that I've seen.
I was in Geometry class in high school. I brought an organic orange from home and peeled and started eating it.
A kid a couple rows over said to me, "Let me get one of the StarBurst."
I freaked out and said, "What the #^%@ did you just say?" and a few other things.
I might have asked if he was *$&&$^# retarded as well.
I was in absolute shock.
This kid called an orange I was eating; STARBURST!!!!!!!!!.. that nasty plastic candy that comes in a small rectangle form that you get out of a vending machine.
We must liberate ourselves.
I don't know if you've heard of this but I was hoping you or somebody else would find it useful:
Thanks
For all those who view 'normal', healthy, sexual activity/pleasure/desire as some sort of 'danger', 'delusion', or hindrance, to their religious beliefs while not seeking a life as a Buddhist Monk or any sort of celibate clergy ...
Well, coming from a very strong background with experience and education in psychology and counseling -- I have two words for you:
Competent Therapy.
I read the thread carefully, I believe I understood the posts well enough.
My comment at the end was not sarcasm or flippancy, I promise. I meant it.
Others answered in more "Buddhist" terms, I went for the more practical answer.
To have such extreme views, negative outlooks and strong aversions for sexual activity and to consistently compare it (sex) to 'addiction' issues is a red flag.
That's just my opinion.
I also did not intend to be the last word on the topic ...
I waited to see if anyone else said what I thought to say, and if they had, I would have given their post a thumbs up and not added anything else at all.
I saw things from a different angle, that's all.
Anyone is free to comment further, or question my post, I don't have a problem with that. :-) I was just trying not to get into a whole big detailed explanation... You guys know how long winded I can be! LOL