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Buddhism And Meditation: Why Most Buddhists In The World Don't Meditate!
DaltheJigsaw
Mountain View Veteran
I'm actually one of these individuals, while I know the importance of doing it on a consistent bases, it's hard to find time with such a busy western schedule. However, things are changing and I'm getting better with having a more consistent practice. What are your thoughts? Experiences? Practices like Newbuddhist? 
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/lewis-richmond/most-buddhists-dont-medit_b_1461821.html
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/lewis-richmond/most-buddhists-dont-medit_b_1461821.html
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I've got a hectic life as well, but if you simplify it a bit surely you can make time to meditate. Say half at least half an hour a day, get up a bit earlier and go to bed earlier the night before. Watch less TV, less internet, heck, consider even staying way from NewBuddhist if that provides more time for meditating. When you meditate, generally you also need less sleep, so there is even some compensation there.
Running away from meditation is also running away from yourself.
But if you practice it regularly it becomes the most beautiful thing and a real essential part of life.
While I came out of the Zen school of Buddhism, I don't do much formal meditation anymore. But I meditate every day. Even in an active life like mine, there are many times with I'm standing still doing nothing but waiting. I pump gas. I stand in line. I sit in a traffic jam. During those times, I can choose to either unhitch the thought and emotion train and let it scream down the tracks (will this line ever move look that sob has way over twelve items can't believe it i'm running late wonder what the wife cooked for supper if that daughter of mine doesn't help clean up the house i'm going to yell at her tonight...) or I can stand or sit quietly, being aware.
People being what they are, I bet in the average zazen hall, probably half the students there spend their hours with the thought train running wild and getting nothing out of it. I've never met nonmeditating Buddhists, but I'd bet a lot of them prepare a meal in a mindful way that would put a zen meditator to shame.
This morning I woke at 4am as usual, the coffee was already finished from the timer set the night before, and I went and sat on the porch and observed the world slumbering. I sat quietly, doing nothing and only being aware of the world, the cup, and the taste of the coffee on my tongue. When the coffee was done I sat for a while longer until the dawn arrived. Then I went and did something else.
But I wasn't practicing meditation. I didn't say, "Now I'm going to sit here and meditate". I just sat quietly, doing nothing, being aware.
Right mindfulness and right effort are also direct meditation practices. And the rest depends upon them. So one can't really practice a partial path at all.
That's fine, everybody can use Buddhism for what they want. But practicing partially won't give what's possible.
Sabre cut right through your Pedanticality.
First of all, it's a judgmental thing to say, because even those who spend great spans of time meditating, perhaps every single day, may be very unskillful and unBuddhist-like, off the cushion. You just don't know...
As for the rigid idea that formal meditation is a MUST DO practice, and the more the better-- I will repeat what I said on another thread, (which I admit was slightly out of context there, because I was commenting on a specific link someone provided):
'I find it difficult to believe Buddha truly envisioned whole cultures or vast numbers of people all withdrawn into themselves seeking enlightenment- while ignoring everything else around them.
I believe if Buddhism had accomplished this, we would have been stuck in time at whichever point that happened, never to progress or evolve further. What a waste.
This is why I believe it might be better if Buddhism was approached as a culturally ethical & moral way of life, more than strictly a 'religious devotion' unless one is aspiring to actually BE a monk.'
Also, some very devout Christians, Jews and others live their lives well and according to the principles of their faith, without it all being about reaching the 'goal' of Heaven or eternal rewards. I think most cultural Buddhists do the same.
Personally, enlightenment is not my goal... living a good, gentle Buddhist life, with as little damage to my surroundings and myself, and generating as little negative Karma as possible, is my motivation.
I feel one should apply the principles of Buddhism to Life-
not literally apply one's Life to Buddhism...
just my opinion.
All of the great masters.. that is what they were doing while they fueled what you've come across today in your lifetime; waste, being a hindrance to all?
Even those that are not at such an enlightened level.. that is what they are doing? Wasting time?
They don't retreat to ignore everybody, they do it so they can further develop so that they may be of maximum benefit to all as opposed to the opposite.
Most beings have a VERY difficult time practicing such things in the mainstream of life.
A person seeking enlightenment is doing the best possible thing for all.
A society seeking enlightenment has nothing to do with being "withdrawn".
American society is withdrawn into self obsession.
An enlightened society would be working together for the benefit of all.
See the difference?
Before enlightenment chop wood, carry water.
After enlightenment chop wood, carry water.
I suppose one can say if one doesn't formally meditate one isn't a "real" Buddhist.
I suppose someone else might say that one who judges the motives and practices of others isn't a "real".
I suppose someone else might say...
Well, you get the idea. One can make a million judgments about others, but as a few people have reminded me on occasion, it's not about judging others...it's about one's own way on the path...whatever precisely that path may be.
Thanks, Mary Anne!
The Buddha said perhaps now we feel ok with not meditating much, but later we might fall into regret: Which of course doesn't just go for monks. It says monks because monks remembered and passed on the discourses and the lay people generally didn't.
I think you are adding a bit more to my words than I intended, or maybe I didn't explain well enough.
I am strictly speaking about formal meditation, and how some people believe that formal meditation (i.e; sitting the cushion, quietly and away from all else) is the ONLY way to reach enlightenment and/or be considered living truly as a "Buddhist" practitioner.
It seems to me that the majority of people who believe this, also believe that it comes down to the more (formal meditation) the better, and their feeling dissatisfied and unhappy about not being able to do it long enough or well enough for a number of reasons.... they become/are firmly attached to their "formal meditation" ideas.
I think (my opinion) that its much more important and productive to incorporate mindfulness /the 8 fold path/precepts etc into one's daily life - into work, school, play, chores, cooking, relationships and so on -- because This is what can make a society as a whole more gentle, more caring, more peaceful and harmonious; rather than obsessing about if one is getting enough personal cushion time in every day, or judging others on how often or long they do or don't meditate.
I'm not saying no one should meditate, I'm not saying that - at all.
I'm saying it's not the end-all be-all to being a Buddhist. And that being a Buddhist does not necessarily mean focusing on attaining Ultimate Enlightenment above all else 24/7.
Buddhism has survived for thousands of years in many areas of the world, and continues to do so - without the (mostly Western) perceptions and emphasis on "formal" meditation.... But to each his or her own.
I just get a little "prickly" when I hear people say "You don't Sit/meditate? Well then, you're not doing it right and not really a (good) Buddhist practitioner..."
I leave it upto everyone to determine if they feel themself to be Buddhist. I don't feel myself Buddhist, but I feel myself practicing the path, mostly when I'm meditating, not really that much when I'm at work for example.
Again, this is not meant to be degrading, it's to stipulate the importance of meditation, which the Buddha also did often.
With metta!
Sabre:
You said in this thread:
"Right mindfulness and right effort are also direct meditation practices. And the rest depends upon them. So one can't really practice a partial path at all.
That's fine, everybody can use Buddhism for what they want. But practicing partially won't give what's possible. "
and:
"Without meditation one doesn't practice Buddhism because one doesn't practice the 8-fold path. So it's really really important."
(all Italics mine)
And what defines a "real Buddhist"? At times when I slack in meditation I also don't feel like I'm practicing the path. Luckily this doesn't happen often. Doesn't really say anything about me being a Buddhist or not though.
But I just cincerely hope I can get some people to think about meditating more because of the incredible value it can have in ones life.
And I might add, that over time I have known people who meditate a lot, but to me don't act in ways that I think are reasonable for a Buddhist to act. But I still wouldn't say what you said...at least not any longer. I once would have more judgmental.
Just like I would never speak in favour of taking the precepts lightly, I'll not speak in favour (or in flavour) of taking meditation as a side-dish. Because it's really just part and parcel of the practice in my eyes.
So yeah, I'm direct. If that offends anyone in any way, that wasn't intended and I'm sorry, but I don't see it as a reason to change my opinion or how I share it. For my intention is to show the importance I think meditation has. If I'd talk softly about it, the message possibly wouldn't get across. The soft way of explaining yourself is not always the most useful way. Heck, the Buddha didn't even call anyone a "learner" unless they are already in a stage of enlightenment.. so in a way he does say one isn't a Buddhist until then. But I won't go as far.
Anyway, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying everybody should have good virtue and good meditation always. We are all where we are. I'm just saying to really practice the 8-fold path, we are required to practice all factors for "practicing partially won't give what's possible".
I hope this explains my point of view and I also hope we can get back to the topic now.
With metta,
Sabre
The snippet I quoted from you was what I was responding to.
MaryAnne said: 'I find it difficult to believe Buddha truly envisioned whole cultures or vast numbers of people all withdrawn into themselves seeking enlightenment- while ignoring everything else around them.
I believe if Buddhism had accomplished this, we would have been stuck in time at whichever point that happened, never to progress or evolve further. What a waste.
I was only commenting on this obvious misconception.
You typed this likely as a result of being prickly.. it is no big deal.
I tend to exaggerate things when I am prickly as well and sometimes say things that really don't make sense.
Is it rather like a chariot with wheels and axles and so on and nothing there to be a chariot?
On other threads, very recently, you said that without formal/sitting meditation, it was very difficult to cultivate Right living off the cushion. You were clear about that. Others were discussing their ways of meditating while doing chores, or for a few minutes here and there throughout their day, being as mindful and skillful as possible while walking, and doing other things in the course of normal activities... and you said in so many words that is not the same as sitting meditation, and therefore not exactly the correct way to follow the path. (I'm paraphrasing)
Wait- Here's one quote:
"I see where you are coming from. But what I think the thing is, mindfulness off the cushion is quite difficult without mindfulness on the cushion. It's like trying to jump far without a run up. It's in the sitting where you really create the impulse for the rest of the day. Not to say that everyday mindfulness isn't useful, it is. But it is never a replacement for sitting meditation. "
I admit I had those other posts in the back of my mind as well, as I read the ones here in this thread. I realize this is your opinion, and what works best for you; and that's great. Nothing wrong with sharing these things, right?
But you have to admit that it really is a tad bit judgmental (and lecture-like) when there are no words like "In my opinion" or "For me...what works best is...." "Some people find that...." or "Many people think...." or "I like to do [sitting meditation] because..." etc.
Because when all is said and done, we are posting in a Buddhist forum, where we are all (well mostly) Buddhists, or interested in Buddhism, and when anyone speaks firmly or in a "direct" manner in criticism of any aspect of Buddhist practices, there are bound to be people who take it 'personally' and wish to defend or explain themselves and their ways. That's just the nature of forums.
Well, if you see it as judgemental, I can't do anything about that other than saying again that 'm cincerely trying to help and I think it's not wrong to be direct sometimes. The Buddha also very often said "it's like this and that" without being judgemental. He didn't say "In my opinion the noble truths are ..." or something. Now I don't feel comfortable comparing myself to the Buddha, but I think we can use him as an example.
If you read the history of my posts, you'll see that at times I use a very soft approach. But when I think that's not useful, I don't. Like here, I feel like I have to wake people up, shake them around a bit, get them to think a bit more than just sharing opinions. I think there is a good reason why some people feel addressed in particular.
(also if you read carefully you do see I used "I think " in the quote you gave, but ok let's not argue over that)
Also, to me it is like we are discussing if snow is white or green and I should say "others may think it is green, in my opinion it is white". I think everybody who has a cincere daily meditation practice going on thats giving its fruits, will agree on that one.
If my point still isn't clear so beit, I can't make it any clearer. But perhaps others understand. I hope so, because I took all this effort to not to defend myself (I don't really care what others think about me), but also to explain why some teachers are direct and it isn't always the 'kind' ones who are right. For example, Ajahn Chah once kicked a student to learn him a lesson, a lesson he never forgot and is still grateful for until this day on.
And I can admit another reason here is, I don't like to water down the dhamma. The Buddha warned us that a lessening respect for meditation is one of the reasons for the decline of the dhamma. I want to avoid that as much as I can for the benefit of all beings, even if what I do is just a tiny small bit. Because what one can get out of meditation is so amazingly beautiful, everybody should benefit from it.
So there are multiple reasons for me acting the way I did and do, but none of them is being judgemental. I really hope you understand at least one of these reasons. If you still don't, please accept my apologies.
With metta,
Sabre
Please, don't apologize, because obviously you are dismissing others' perceptions and elevating what YOU think, and how YOU see things, and they way YOU want to have the rest of us to behave/interact/react way over and above the reality of a conversation covering other points of view.
You need to "help us understand things" and you feel you must "help us follow Buddhism" as Buddha meant it to be followed?
You state: "... I feel like I have to wake people up, shake them around a bit, get them to think a bit more than just sharing opinions. I think there is a good reason why some people feel addressed in particular. "
So, you've become our teacher, not just another voice in a conversation? Really? You're really going to stick to that? Ok, so you're schooling us, then, not just sharing opinions.
"The Buddha also very often said "it's like this and that" without being judgemental. He didn't say "In my opinion the noble truths are ..." or something. Now I don't feel comfortable comparing myself to the Buddha, but I think we can use him as an example. " (italics mine)
No, I don't think any of us can or should compare ourselves - or use the Buddha as an example....
Honestly, Sabre I really do 'get' where you are coming from. I do. I often find myself wanting people to see things in other ways, trying to get them to view situations, opinions, and circumstances from other perspectives, I get that.
However, I try to get others to see a broader, varied and more extended view; even if it's not my personal perspective...-- and I think that's quite a bit different than trying to get others to chisel their views down to a singular, narrow/er point of view which, in the end, is the same as mine.
Peace.
You try to get people have a broader prespective, I try to get them to see what I honestly belief is beneficial for them. That way I obviously can't please everybody, especially on topics that apparently are a bit sensitive, but ok. That's the way it is.
But it's not judgemental, that's just how it seems to you. I could also take your post to be very judgemental towards me, but I don't, even though it adresses me personally.
Let's now get back to the topic please, I think this is getting out of hand.
With metta,
Sabre
I think the above true because without stilling the mind to a deep level, we don't really see what is going on. By not seeing what is going on, we can't know what is benefical for us and what is not. We don't know what really is producive to happiness and what is not. Other way around, we can't really still the mind if we don't know how to handle it.
But when we do practice wisdom and concentration (I prefer to translate it as tranquility), we learn how to get the mind in mindstates that are more and more pleasant. We don't get dragged along with our emotions, can quite easily get out of mindstates that we don't like, and into those we like (which are far superior to any sensual pleasures), and can stop thoughts we don't want to think, or stop thinking at all. (no, that's not negative, that's nice!
But the most important one: If we see deep into the mind, we loose the fear of death because we can see there is no such thing. I don't see how things like that can be done intellectually or by a general mindfulness, but I do see how it can be done through a daily sitting practice. And it's not just about ourselves. If we learn to understand ourselves, we understand others as well.
It's these kind of things that make Buddhism really stand out from a lot of other approaches to life. And so that's why the Buddha taught meditation as an important aspect of the path, not just in this quote but in general.
I do advise everybody to try and set up a regular practice to achieve these beautiful results -or even more beautiful ones-. And as a more short term wish, I hope to have gotten the topic back on track!
Kindness!
Sabre
One can absolutely speak "directly" without being judgmental or condescending. But I see both in your posts. Direct speaking can be done diplomatically as well. But I don't see much of that in your posts.
You say you can't be bothered worrying about talking down to others or veering off the 'right speech' path because... pffft!... bottom line is- it's more important to get your point across and tell others what's best for them, Ok...
Let's do be direct.
Just because you honestly believe you know what is best for someone/others, does not give you the 'right' to criticize them or their ways. Because no matter if you are right, you're criticizing because you are judging them according to your own standard or viewpoint, which of course you believe is above theirs.
I ever-so-gently suggest you meditate on the idea of "helping others through criticism- even when they don't ask for help" and see what you come up with.
Peace. Truly.
Let's just go on ahead with the topic.
And let me say that I really respect everobody who tries to improve their mind in anyway. Maybe you would understand if you met me in real life.
I've heard that meditation.. among many other words don't really convey the original Tibetan language properly. Such is a problem with translation.
Gom basically means to have gotten used to (meditation). Kind of like past tense.. Dzogchen master saying, "What need is there to meditate?" (They've finished with that)
They are in a state of constant meditation even though it is not meditation because meditation implies that one has not gotten used to being in that natural state..
There are quite a few out there that have attained that.
For somebody who is not in rigpa 24/7 I feel that one must have a consistent meditation practice to achieve such...
as was explained in the jhana video earlier in this thread.
The lady in the video explained that if you're not going forward with such efforts than you are going backward.
One day out of every week for a random sitting session isn't really going to give much benefit.
She also explained how people justify not having a meditation schedule.
Justification/frustration/anger in regards to such a topic points out the obvious.
I'm starting to crack something open again and I see it as completely necessary for my practice. I'm not passing a judgement on anybody else who isn't meditating, but maybe you are just avoiding cracking open your own egg. Positive intention is great, but positive action is better.
What benefit?
I'm going to play the devil's advocate here a bit. There are a million monks and hardcore Zen meditators out there who spend a good part of their lives sitting on the floor gazing at their belly button. As far as I can see, the only result is, they've gotten really, really good at sitting on the floor gazing at their belly button.
If it's just the physical effects of lowered blood pressure and stress, you can get the same effect from moderate exercise or a relaxing hobby.
So why meditate? What are you trying to do that is worth all that wasted time? Convince me I shouldn't be better off doing something constructive with my time like read a book.
I open the floor to comments.
here's a thought- if meditation is about what's happening on the inside... (as you said, and I agree) why can't you/we acknowledge that you/we don't know what's going on - on the inside- when others are 'meditating' their way- while doing chores, walking, or listening to music, etc?
One person may formally sit for hours a day, and one person may simply calm their mind and contemplate for a few minutes - 15 times a day.
Who's to say what will and won't work for them?
One reason why I try to help is because all people I spoke to who meditate often seem to share some of the same benefits. Also if you learn about your own mind, you see how it applies to other minds as well, because people are not that different. The differences are only at the surface.
Also I did do less meditation and I know the beneficial effects it can have - I never said it doesn't work in any way -, but I also know that really getting deep can have much better effects and I wish everybody to have such experiences.
I'm getting a bit tired of explaining this again and again, I'm not judging or critisizing people. So if you can't see my posts as a sincere intention to help instead, may I ask you to please stop responding in this way? Or otherwise I will from now on. I hope you understand.
With metta,
Sabre
http://buddhism4nirvana.blogspot.nl/2011/06/worm-and-his-lovely-pile-of-dung.html