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I believe that innately we are all attempting to arrive at the same home using different roads where all constructs, notions, and concepts must ultimately be dropped in order to get there.
First we are ignorant in a certain sense, then we accumulate a bunch of knowledge, then we have to crucify our discursive mind and become ignorant again. That is what is meant by being still and entering Divine Darkness. I hope that makes sense.
Lets imagine a wee scenario. Lets imagine that an Orthodox Christian converts to Buddhism, and then spends a good deal of time visiting an Orthodox forum in order to extol the merits of Buddhism. Two points,1) how long would this be tolerated on an Orthodox forum ? and 2) What would be achieved ?
@Citta I think you would be hard pressed to see mention of Buddhism on an Orthodox forum as that is definitely not their primary focus. However, generally speaking from experience most Orthodox Christians don't harbor animosity toward Buddhism and have some level of curiosity so they might be interested in what you have to say.
Some of our contemporary notable Church fathers have had various experiences with Eastern religions including Buddhism, and given their stature and reverence in the Church there is more respect and tolerance there than you probably realize.
And with all due respect this is not strictly a "Buddhist" forum as you are suggestively implying. There has been a certain amount of focus and commenting about Christianity and Christians, and a lot of it has been ignorant and negative even before I arrived. I assure you I would not have stopped by if this wasn't so, and as a reminder this forum isn't really private, and most of what gets posted is available for all to see.
“May the gentle breezes blow through your heart and bring you everlasting happiness” - Morrisey
So New Buddhist is not a Buddhist forum ? I am sure that will come as a surprise to a few. Frankly Silouan I think you are being disingenuous about the fate of a Buddhist POV on an Orthodox forum...I think that you know that it would disappear faster than a snowflake in a pizza oven. And I think that you know the reason. The vast majority of even those at the more liberal end ( relatively ) of the Eastern Orthodox spectrum believe that Buddhism is literally diabolical, Do I therefore think that the Christian POV should meet an equivalent fate on a Buddhist forum ?.....No, but lets not take advantage of tolerance.
But you also can see -- in reading this forum over a longer period of time than just looking at the log-in screen -- that any number of us frequently bring in points about Christianity, particularly under the comparative religion sub-forum.
And among the people in this forum are people who follow a more Tibetan Buddhist approach, others who follow a more Theravadan approach, others who are very into Zen...and each position includes statements of opinion that are proselytizing, albeit on a smaller scale.
And I think there's a parallel to be drawn with what happened last night. The party that welcomed people through a "big tent philosophy" won. The party of exclusion, that excels in telling various groups of people why they're not "real" Americans lost.
But you also can see -- in reading this forum over a longer period of time than just looking at the log-in screen -- that any number of us frequently bring in points about Christianity, particularly under the comparative religion sub-forum.
And among the people in this forum are people who follow a more Tibetan Buddhist approach, others who follow a more Theravadan approach, others who are very into Zen...and each position includes statements of opinion that are proselytizing, albeit on a smaller scale.
And I think there's a parallel to be drawn with what happened last night. The party that welcomed people through a "big tent philosophy" won. The party of exclusion, that excels in telling various groups of people why they're not "real" Americans lost.
I've never seen the point in having a Comparative religion section its not helpful in the least it rather serves as a platform for people to tell you all about how great their beliefs are and where you are going wrong, Under the Guise of Comparative Religion it serves as a place to disparage and pick on the points of things that will certainly not help anyone whether they are Buddhist or not.
There is a great variety of tradition within Buddhism and yet we all follow a core of idea's that give us the label of being Buddhist, We can all agree on certain things and disagree on others. with other religious traditions we have little in common with as doctrine disagrees with most of such concepts other then core Humanistic values so there is little point being eclectic in overall viewpoints as no one will benefit or further their understanding of Buddha's teachings.
For what it's worth, I love seeing the insights of, and similarities between, other spiritual traditions. I've spent a lot of time discovering similarities between Buddhism and aspects of Platonism, Stoicism, and Epicureanism, as well as Christianity. I think my own practice and understanding has benefited from such comparisons and discussions.
That some people can't help but do so competitively doesn't mean we shouldn't allow such discussions.
For what it's worth, I love seeing the insights of, and similarities between, other spiritual traditions. I've spent a lot of time discovering similarities between Buddhism and aspects of Platonism, Stoicism, and Epicureanism, as well as Christianity. I think my own practice and understanding has benefited from such comparisons and discussions.
That some people can't help but do so competitively doesn't mean we shouldn't allow such discussions.
Well I suppose it gives one an opportunity to examine certain views with wisdom, after all if such views are going to be present then why not test them as Buddha did if people feel the need to continually tell you how great they are.
I think the idea of a Comparative Religion forum is a good one...when used as a back door for leafleting its a bit trying however..
To often it is used as a backdoor, You know at my centre we used to have some christian groups come to use the cafe and litter all the book with leaflets on finding god. To often this is what comparative religion becomes but then again evangelizing seems to be an essential part of their faith so what do you expect ?
@Caz, you sometimes tell people here on this forum how they are wrong in their thinking. Hos is that good etiquette? It shows a(n) enormous lack of respect.
Nutrition nurtures us whatever the source. The Buddha would have politely starved himself to death if not for Sujata. Those of us with a Christian or other heritage, may be able to find value from those who are expressing it through wisdom and knowledge rather than half digested zealotry. Fanatical Buddhists are as weird as any narrow minded devotee, which may not go down well in an environment requiring compassionate understanding and sharing . . . I suppose we can learn from the Buddhas example of the Middle Way . . . :thumbsup:
For what it's worth, I love seeing the insights of, and similarities between, other spiritual traditions. I've spent a lot of time discovering similarities between Buddhism and aspects of Platonism, Stoicism, and Epicureanism, as well as Christianity. I think my own practice and understanding has benefited from such comparisons and discussions.
That some people can't help but do so competitively doesn't mean we shouldn't allow such discussions.
This would be my view also. I find a complete accord between the kind of Christianity being promoted here and Buddhism, and find great value in studying both. If we see an opposition between the two this is an intepretative disagreement. I have read every writer who has been mentioned here in support of Christianity and find none of them saying anything that would contradict the Buddha's view.
It is a terrible shame when someone promotes the view that Christians are able to discover the truth but Buddhists are not, or vice versa. It feeds the idea that all religion is nonsense. It is not difficult to read The Mystical Theology of Dionysius, the Enneads of Plotinus, the writings of Gregory of Nyssa, St. Anthony, Evagrios, Meister Eckhart, St. Theresa etc. and even Jesus as describing a Buddhist universe, and this seems the safest and most charitable interpretation to me.
Keith Ward in his book on God states clearly that for the classical Christian idea of God He would not exist, or not in the way our limited ideas of existence and non-existence would lead us to believe.
I do hope that we keep arguing about this, however, since it is important. My view would be that when we can see that all the world's main religions make the same claims then we have found the correct interpretation of them, and this would be what makes the study of comparative religion so useful.
I agree In the main Florian. However it is not unknown for someone to go through the motions of universality while actually having an agenda...just something to be aware of.. And as Ajahn Sumedho says.." we should respect all spiritual paths, we can learn much from all of them...but we can only practice one. "
Yes, good point. I suppose we all have an agenda when it comes down to it. I'd also agree that it's a mistake to mix up different practice methods. Much the same as for tennis or guitar playing really.
Personally actually getting down to practice.rather than goofing off, in ONE tradition takes all I have got. Which does not stop me eyeing up the green grass elsewhere...
My feeling also. But sometimes a wander around the grass elsewhere sheds some light on the home turf. I had to go off and learn Buddhism in order to make sense of Christianty.
Comments
I believe that innately we are all attempting to arrive at the same home using different roads where all constructs, notions, and concepts must ultimately be dropped in order to get there.
First we are ignorant in a certain sense, then we accumulate a bunch of knowledge, then we have to crucify our discursive mind and become ignorant again. That is what is meant by being still and entering Divine Darkness. I hope that makes sense.
Anyway, follow your bliss.
Two points,1) how long would this be tolerated on an Orthodox forum ? and 2) What would be achieved ?
I think you would be hard pressed to see mention of Buddhism on an Orthodox forum as that is definitely not their primary focus. However, generally speaking from experience most Orthodox Christians don't harbor animosity toward Buddhism and have some level of curiosity so they might be interested in what you have to say.
Some of our contemporary notable Church fathers have had various experiences with Eastern religions including Buddhism, and given their stature and reverence in the Church there is more respect and tolerance there than you probably realize.
And with all due respect this is not strictly a "Buddhist" forum as you are suggestively implying. There has been a certain amount of focus and commenting about Christianity and Christians, and a lot of it has been ignorant and negative even before I arrived. I assure you I would not have stopped by if this wasn't so, and as a reminder this forum isn't really private, and most of what gets posted is available for all to see.
“May the gentle breezes blow through your heart and bring you everlasting happiness” - Morrisey
Farewell
Frankly Silouan I think you are being disingenuous about the fate of a Buddhist POV on an Orthodox forum...I think that you know that it would disappear faster than a snowflake in a pizza oven. And I think that you know the reason. The vast majority of even those at the more liberal end ( relatively ) of the Eastern Orthodox spectrum believe that Buddhism is literally diabolical,
Do I therefore think that the Christian POV should meet an equivalent fate on a Buddhist forum ?.....No, but lets not take advantage of tolerance.
As do many of us.
But you also can see -- in reading this forum over a longer period of time than just looking at the log-in screen -- that any number of us frequently bring in points about Christianity, particularly under the comparative religion sub-forum.
And among the people in this forum are people who follow a more Tibetan Buddhist approach, others who follow a more Theravadan approach, others who are very into Zen...and each position includes statements of opinion that are proselytizing, albeit on a smaller scale.
And I think there's a parallel to be drawn with what happened last night. The party that welcomed people through a "big tent philosophy" won. The party of exclusion, that excels in telling various groups of people why they're not "real" Americans lost.
There is a great variety of tradition within Buddhism and yet we all follow a core of idea's that give us the label of being Buddhist, We can all agree on certain things and disagree on others. with other religious traditions we have little in common with as doctrine disagrees with most of such concepts other then core Humanistic values so there is little point being eclectic in overall viewpoints as no one will benefit or further their understanding of Buddha's teachings.
Your last point is not a valid comparison.
That some people can't help but do so competitively doesn't mean we shouldn't allow such discussions.
It is a terrible shame when someone promotes the view that Christians are able to discover the truth but Buddhists are not, or vice versa. It feeds the idea that all religion is nonsense. It is not difficult to read The Mystical Theology of Dionysius, the Enneads of Plotinus, the writings of Gregory of Nyssa, St. Anthony, Evagrios, Meister Eckhart, St. Theresa etc. and even Jesus as describing a Buddhist universe, and this seems the safest and most charitable interpretation to me.
Keith Ward in his book on God states clearly that for the classical Christian idea of God He would not exist, or not in the way our limited ideas of existence and non-existence would lead us to believe.
I do hope that we keep arguing about this, however, since it is important. My view would be that when we can see that all the world's main religions make the same claims then we have found the correct interpretation of them, and this would be what makes the study of comparative religion so useful.
And as Ajahn Sumedho says.." we should respect all spiritual paths, we can learn much from all of them...but we can only practice one. "
Which does not stop me eyeing up the green grass elsewhere...