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The Divinity of Christ?
DaftChris
Spiritually conflicted. Not of this world. Veteran
I've been on my spiritual journey for almost a year now and I feel a slight pull back to Christianity. In a sense, I can understand why.
After looking into scripture, research and comparative religion, I've discovered that "God" goes being a literal understanding. It is within and beyond us; pointing to a transcendent understanding. Science (real science, not things like Young Earth Creationism) does not have to be compromised. There is a place for "faith" in the modern world without it having to be a "poison". Truly, I almost feel a sense of, dare I say, enlightenment.
So, why don't I become Christian again?
Simply put, the notion of Jesus as God.
This is one thing that I cannot accept. I, with a spiritual heart and skeptic's mind, do not believe in miracles or revelations. Why would such miraculous things occur in ancient times, but not now? Branching from this is the notion of Jesus as this divine being. I fully accept that Jesus was a great teacher, but a magical man he was not. To believe he was literally born of a virgin, walked on water or rose from the dead is, to me, irrational. In fact, I view it as an antithesis to the teachings of the Buddha; with one putting full faith in a divine Godman whom will save you from damnation if you spiritually submit to his "father" and one being how we find our own nirvana by saving ourselves from, well, ourselves.
Couldn't just believing in his teachings be enough? I feel a pull back to Christianity, Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy in particular, but (oddly enough) Jesus is what's holding me back.
After looking into scripture, research and comparative religion, I've discovered that "God" goes being a literal understanding. It is within and beyond us; pointing to a transcendent understanding. Science (real science, not things like Young Earth Creationism) does not have to be compromised. There is a place for "faith" in the modern world without it having to be a "poison". Truly, I almost feel a sense of, dare I say, enlightenment.
So, why don't I become Christian again?
Simply put, the notion of Jesus as God.
This is one thing that I cannot accept. I, with a spiritual heart and skeptic's mind, do not believe in miracles or revelations. Why would such miraculous things occur in ancient times, but not now? Branching from this is the notion of Jesus as this divine being. I fully accept that Jesus was a great teacher, but a magical man he was not. To believe he was literally born of a virgin, walked on water or rose from the dead is, to me, irrational. In fact, I view it as an antithesis to the teachings of the Buddha; with one putting full faith in a divine Godman whom will save you from damnation if you spiritually submit to his "father" and one being how we find our own nirvana by saving ourselves from, well, ourselves.
Couldn't just believing in his teachings be enough? I feel a pull back to Christianity, Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy in particular, but (oddly enough) Jesus is what's holding me back.
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Comments
As for Jesus, while I don't believe in a creator God, nor, as a consequence, that Jesus is the son of God/God in the flesh, I do have a soft spot for him as a spiritual teacher, and I think some of the things he's reported as saying in the New Testament are pretty cool. I especially like, "Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone" (John 8:7), the Sermon on the Mount, and his many teachings on forgiveness. But I'm not planning on converting to Christianity anytime soon.
Not really sure what advice I can give besides explore wherever your heart takes you, and just try to be receptive to all the good things you find along the way, whatever form they may take.
1.) It has it's fair share of "revelations" and "miracles" which are meant to be taken literally. God speaking with Mohammad, Mohammad ascending into heaven on a winged horse, judgement day with darkness and fire in the skies, etc.
2.) I'm a homosexual. I'm not the kind to flaunt it or one who bleeds bleached-pink rainbows, but homosexuality is strictly forbidden in Islam. To an extent it is in Christianity as well, but there is little to no tolerance for it in Islam. So much to the point that many call for the deaths of homosexuals because it "states such in the Qu'ran and Hadiths".
3.) I don't like the submission of woman view that many Muslim men hold.
4.) I like Bacon too much.
A lot of what I've read and researched suggests that Jesus' view of God was more in line with the Essenes, and that God is closer to the Hindu "Brahman" than an independent supreme being. That's just my opinion of course, but the way he taught seems to be more in line with this view of God than the traditional Jewish one. And so that he was a son of God, whether that was declared by him or words put in his mouth, could be construed as he truly understoond we're all part of the same reality... we're all sons and daughters of God according to Jesus.
This takes any personal divinity out of the picture, so if you view Christianity this way perhaps it won't be a problem for you, yes? There is a compilation of the teachings of Jesus alone called the "Jefferson Bible" (put together by Thomas Jefferson) that you might consider reading. I've attached the PDF to this post.
It's important to see the difference between spirituality and religion. In spirit we are all one, and there are remarkable similarities between the teachings of Jesus and Buddha and other great teachers. Religions are man-made, often filled with rituals and rules pertaining to the period of their inception. Seek out the works of Meister Eckhart if you want to find a Christian mystic who could see through the doctrine to the spirit of his religion.
As for miracles, there are dangers in relying on what science presently understands in explaining everything that happens in this world. Many events happen which science cannot yet explain. This does not mean they are miracles, but let's not be so quick to deny them.
As many of you now know I was Buddhist for several years with no Christian religious background before coming to Eastern Orthodox Christianity. I followed my heart there, but that’s not to say I didn’t have doubts, skepticism, and other struggles along way. I held the very same ideas pro and con that I have seen on this forum, and I inquired about them with my spiritual father, and studied the writings of the holy fathers and mothers for explanations too.
Spiritually now things are much more a matter of the heart and internal for me rather than in the head and external, but don’t get me wrong Orthodox spirituality has an abundant wealth of material that can make your head spin too if you want it. Where I previously struggled with some nasty habits and passions I’m finding inner stillness, peace and joy, but I’m definitely not finished.
The divinity of Christ is discovered in the depth of one’s heart, but it requires self emptying and participation in His life, and there is no end because the heart is deep so we just plunge deeper. Christ’s life was one of self emptiness, humility, and meekness. That is what the Christian is called to be, Christ like, and it does not come from just reading books. His divinity is expressed in the lives of the saints of the Church. Not because they primarily performed miracles, but the way they lived their lives. They are evidence of deification or Theosis possible for us. Becoming what God is by nature through grace by the sharing in Christ’s divinity.
I agree with @poptart analysis as whole, though we have plenty of mystic examples in the Church, and would add that miracles be they Buddhist, Christian, or what have you is a question of how you see or view matter in understanding what could be possible. I have seen myrrh streaming icons and the body of saint of the Church in repose with parts untouched by decay or corruption, and other things best kept secret.
In Tibetan Buddhism and Bon Po there are the phenomena of the rainbow body, and the virgin birth and resurrection in Christianity. There is obviously more to our world and universe than meets the eye or that science can explain.
If interested in a very fascinating lecture on the rainbow body and the resurrection here a the link noetic.org/library/audio-lectures/the-rainbow-body-phenomenon-with-father-francis-ti/
You ask, "Couldn't just believing in his teachings be enough?" Sure. Unless someone is bossing you around and telling you what to believe. You're a free man...aren't you?
Either way, it might be appropriate to ask why your spiritual quest needs to identify a higher power, why you need that power above you in your life, and what accepting of that power will mean to you going forward. If a non-devine being came up to you and gave you important advice or tips on how to live life and you found them to be insightful, pertinent, and compassionate would you bother to ask him/her if she was devine or would you agree that their advice resonates deeply within you and that it really doesn't matter of what nature the person was? Might be helpful to approach it that way.
Also, I find it interesting that people often overlook the most important aspect of Jesus' death: the cause. The way I see it, both with intuition and a mild understanding of the historio-political landscape of Jesus' era, one single act caused his public death. This was the act of Jesus entering the temple, and upon seeing the priestly hierarchy commit intentional acts of deception and thievery, enraging himself and responding by whipping the money-changers, overturning tables and generally causing a scene that could inspire all types of revolt and uprising. It wasn't his teachings or his thoughts or his following that inspired his death, but this one single act of defiance against the established leadership of the region. I think you could even call Jesus the first "Occupy Wall Street" inhabitant, though his stay wasn't long as he was killed a few days later. Jesus was a teacher, a spiritual leader, a revolutionary, and a human. All of those things are inspiring to me, and his potential divinity doesn't really strengthen that for me. In fact, his potential divinity seems to distract me from those things. And I sure don't need any more distractions than ones I already have.
You can interpret "God" or "the Divine" as the Tathagatagarba, the Buddha potential within.
Just a few thoughts.
I do agree that there's more to our world and universe than meets the eye. You'd be surprised what science has managed to explain already. Science education in the US (I don't know about Europe) is so poor that word of even the most basic principles, let alone the more exotic discoveries and theories, just doesn't get out.
Rev 22:18-19 (King James version)
18b ...if any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book. 19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in his book.
Besides it doesn't apply here... the Jefferson Bible is the colloquial name; it's not an actual Bible. The real title is "The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth". It's for people who want to see what Jesus really said, which is always a message of loving one another. He doesn't talk about belief, he talks about love, again and again. It's so short that even non-Christians can comfortably read it, so its value is very high. I'd highly recommend it to anyone!
Thank you so much for finding and providing a link to the thesis. I looked through some of it and it looks very promising. I can hardly wait to read it in full. :-)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_years_of_Jesus#Saint_Issa
Literally last night, I was flipping through the channels and happened upon one of the church channels (I know!) and started watching a program on some scientific discovery made about the shroud of turin (I KNOW!) and I'm not going to lie, it scared me for quick moment until I remembered to turn my analytic goggles on.
This isn't Europe hundreds of years ago. The Inquisition isn't going to come and get you and punish you to death. We have free will (at least in free countries).
You can't have unsure faith in Jesus and consider yourself a Christian. If you don't think Jesus is g-d in human form, but you believe there is a male omnipotent being, then that has to make you a Jew or a Muslim. Now that I think about it, there are liberal Christians who don't believe in everything that is in the bible.
But individuals think differently, as well.
@Omar067, you are free to believe all Christians walk around like zombies with some central figure sending out mind control...but they don't.
People have free will.
I know many Catholic who don't follow the formal teachings of the Pope, and none of them have been excommunicated.
Instead of asking myself what the Bible says (using this or that in the Bible to support a position or not... such as discriminating against homosexuals), I ask myself what Jesus would do. Jesus went beyond the strict conventions of the Jewish religion and spoke directly to the heart of the matter... that we're all brothers and sisters, and should love one another. No one who follows this commandment to "love one another" can be a bigot, but plenty of people who call themselves Christians still tend to be bigoted in some way. These people may be Christians, but I don't consider them to be true follows or disciples of Jesus.
More than anything though, the failure is in believing in Jesus but not actually following his teachings. This is what many Christians do. Faith/belief is emphasized to the point that you need faith in order to be a real Christian and to be saved... emphasis is put on faith over actual practice (living by Jesus' teaching). They'll follow the Ten Commandments as much as they can (though this is still Jewish territory), but they don't put priority on "love one another". They consider the entirety of the Bible to have near-equal weight, but half of it is Judaism which had it wrong... which is why Jesus had to teach otherwise to begin with. It's self-contradictory to have Old and New together, and it leads people to acting in ways they think are right by the Bible, but not necessarily right by Jesus. Anyone can believe what they want of course... but I'd rather always ask myself WWJD?
I was just suggesting Unitarianism because of the community and idea that Christ is not divine (which is the part that DaftChris sited as problematic for him). It is wonderful to be in a community of like-minded and accepting people, and I know many people who find a great sense of belonging and support in the Unitarian church.
FWIW, I was raised Jewish. I find Christ fascinating. I find Buddha fascinating. And I don't know or care if they are/were divine, because I think either we all are, or non of us are, and I don't even care which is true. I'm not even sure I understand the word divine except how it is used to describe chocolate or sushi...
On a day to day basis, to me it all boils down to the decision to be good. Appreciate life, help others & be compassionate. The rest is paperwork. But it's helpful to find a group of people that are simpatico. I think much of one's searching for religious identification is for that purpose- sangha, community, congregation- whatever you call it, to feel belonging.... is *divine*.
Any religion's fundamentalist sect focus on the differences between religions, divisively. More tolerant open-minded practitioners meet each other in the middle, going towards other's beliefs fearlessly, while the fundamentalists cling to the edge of the religion, threatened, trembling in fear, pounding on their texts, pulling away.
Religious fanaticism almost always divides and makes separate, and any violence or hatred spread in the name of religion, IMO, comes from the edge of that religion- from the sect that lives in fear and pulls away from those who are different.
To me, the heart of any religion, the center, has the sect that sees commonality, humanity in all. That sect will never bomb or initiate mass suicides. The center sect is the group feeding and clothing the poor and hungry and working for peace. It's the Rabbis and the Lamas and the Priests that meet in the middle and look for common ground, look to be more effective together. One reason we practice religion in a group is that we are empowered to do the necessary work on a larger scale.
May these different religions all come together, see the similarities and the work that needs to be done, and start to heal the world in large numbers.
:clap: