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I'm with you on this @RebeccaS The whole "negative karma accumulated from the killing but not the eating of meat" thing seems very contradictory to me. I posted my thoughts on this above, so I won't repost, but it is... confusing.
Say person A went out hunting and shot a deer, and cooked up some for dinner. Then person B arrives unexpectedly and shares the meal. Person A had the intention to kill, but person B didn't - does that help?
Sorry, I think I didn't properly explain the question. It's not about eating what's given, it's about buying it in a store.
Oh, I see. My view is that buying meat in a store is a choice and involves intention, so it's ethically questionable. Like we're saying "I'm a Buddhist so I don't kill, but I'm happy for somebody else to do it for me".
My main reason for making this thread was the trophy hunters, IMO they are the same as a person swinging a cat around in the street to kill it (that was done in the UK and caught on tape), the pure thrill to kill a living being. That is not the same.
Yes, trophy hunting just seems like animal cruelty - taking life for a bit of a thrill presumably.
My main reason for making this thread was the trophy hunters, IMO they are the same as a person swinging a cat around in the street to kill it (that was done in the UK and caught on tape), the pure thrill to kill a living being. That is not the same.
Yes, trophy hunting just seems like animal cruelty - taking life for a bit of a thrill presumably.
This is what I do not understand then, if you take both actions and look at them, they are the same really aren't they? Killing a cat in the suburbs of England and shotting an elephant in Africa, however it is most likely one person will get a prison sentence yet the other gets put on a TV show and praised.. Hmmm
Hey man, just being realistic but what's going on there is that when someone kills a big trophy animal like that, others such as the TV company and their sponsors profit, so it's legal. With the person just up and killing a cat? no profit there for anybody, so it's illegal.
Hey man, just being realistic but what's going on there is that when someone kills a big trophy animal like that, others such as the TV company and their sponsors profit, so it's legal. With the person just up and killing a cat? no profit there for anybody, so it's illegal.
Yea I understand that Zayl but I was taking both situations out of context for what they both really are, they are both killing an animal for fun, end of. My point was that they are the same in effect, laws, profits w/e, both scenarios are about killing an animal for the pure thrill of it, which is not too far away from taking a human life. That is where a lot of serial killers start by the way.
Well, yes. They're both taking a life for no true point our purpose, so it's the same. But even so, it is seen differently amongst quite a large portion of the population. No real reason why, that's just the way things work right now.
Yea I was just viewing it objectively and to me it is the same, that is just my opinion anyway. The mentality behind it is the same IMO, hunting for fun, killing for fun. I am not some activist or something lol, but that is just my opinion and everyone is aloud to have their own.
Don't misunderstand, I'm actually agreeing with you.
Sorry dude it is late here, 2am and my brain is skatty enough as it is. I need to stay awake until 2moro evening so I can get my sleeping patterns back on course for school again T___T
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zombiegirlbeating the drum of the lifelessin a dry wastelandVeteran
@ThailandTom Yes! That is a crazy point I have never thought of. Indeed... what is the difference between killing a stray cat and hunting an animal in the wild? Well, the person who kills the cat is usually labeled as crazy, the person hunting in the wild is just a 'sportsman'. Lol.
Oh, I see. My view is that buying meat in a store is a choice and involves intention, so it's ethically questionable. Like we're saying "I'm a Buddhist so I don't kill, but I'm happy for somebody else to do it for me".
That's pretty much where I'm at with it as well. How can supporting someone else breaking the precept be okay and ethical? The only argument is that the deed is already done and one person's choice to not purchase meat won't have a huge effect, but that's just... fatalistic. People say stuff like that about voting as well, but if everyone felt that way, you'd see a huge effect. I think you'd also notice a huge effect if you looked at the big picture (how much meat you've consumed over the past year, the past 10 years, or your life) vs. the small picture of, "Well, this package of hamburger meat will just hit the garbage if I don't purchase it."
@zombiegirl yea when you actually think about it and take both people and their actions out of their surroundings and context, they are exactly the same thing, but we are just conditioned to think that the guy killing the elephant is a sportsman and there is no hangups to most people, whereas swinging a cat around and killing it is utterly disgusting... :wtf:
About the other side of this discussion which I have more or less stayed away from, it seems to be a very grey area seeing as monks and nuns even eat meat. How much responsibility do you actually take on when you eat meat? And you make a good point about putting all of the meat I have consumed in the last 10 years in front of me and the burger in the trash. I personally don't know what to think on the matter lol....
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zombiegirlbeating the drum of the lifelessin a dry wastelandVeteran
@ThailandTom I will admit that I have a personal hangup on the topic of vegetarianism. It's kind of one of those 'what has been seen, cannot be unseen' things. Saw way too many films about the horribleness of the meat industry, and there was a time that even when meat would pass my lips accidentally, the action brought about such a knee-jerk reaction of disgust and loathing. I'm past that now. But, I do still have guilt about CHOOSING meat. A few years back, I switched to eating meat again because of a demanding job schedule and lack of protein. (Working 10+ hours in a bar 6 times a week, existing on bar food, which is really shitty veg food.) I did feel somewhat disappointed in myself, which is of course, a mental construct of my own. But in a way, not eating meat pacifies my feelings on this topic. It doesn't seem to me to be a huge thing to give up, to me anyways, but I cannot speak to your experience in Thailand. I also don't know anything about their meat industry. I'm talking about my typical American lifestyle and I happen to live in a city with an organic nutritional store walking distance from my apartment. I feel I have no excuses left lol, other than my own clinging to my tastebuds...
About the monk/nun thing, it is my understanding that that is a very different topic since they are dependent on what is fed to them, and therefore, there is no choice involved. What we're talking about here is not whether or not eating meat is inherently bad, it's about supporting the very obvious suffering of animals due to the inhumane standards of the meat industry. About the responsibility thing, I guess I just feel like, "If you aren't part of the solution, you're part of the problem." Like I said, do I personally really make a huge dent? Not really... but at least I feel like I'm helping in my own little way. I'm doing what I can as an individual. I don't think that you can ask much more than that.
But this is just my thoughts on what I have found to be true for me personally, I try very hard not to push my views on others, so I hope you don't feel that way. I would be happy if everyone even cut out one day of meat eating or ate meat only on the weekends or something. These sorts of little things are choices that in abundance, can have a great impact. Baby steps, you know?
I do not know much about the meat industry here to be honest, it is not something that I have given much thought to for some reason. You have food stalls which has fresh meat and the ingredients seem to be fresh, but you also have 7/11s everywhere, I mean literally everywhere, and we all know they have a lot of different grades of meat sold in there.
Very few Thai people are veggies, in fact I have never come across one within nearly 3 years of living here in fact, but very few Thai people eat beef for some reason. When I come to think of it, I only know of 2 traditional Thai meals which have no meat in. It is quite astonishing considering it is the home to the biggest population of Buddhists in the world! My sister is a vegetarian and we had a conversation once about her coming here, she would find it hard and would have to eat in the fast food chains or restaurants all of the time because you just don't get Thai vegetarians.
lol no I do not feel you have pushed any views onto me, don't worry about that. Everyone has the right to have their opinion and way of life. I have thought about what impact I make sometimes whilst eating meat, but it is a fleeting thought I must say, that is probably because it is so natural and conditioned. Would saying a prayer or mantra before and or after eating help in anyway with regards to karma do you think? I don't know...
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zombiegirlbeating the drum of the lifelessin a dry wastelandVeteran
I do not know much about the meat industry here to be honest, it is not something that I have given much thought to for some reason. You have food stalls which has fresh meat and the ingredients seem to be fresh, but you also have 7/11s everywhere, I mean literally everywhere, and we all know they have a lot of different grades of meat sold in there.
Very few Thai people are veggies, in fact I have never come across one within nearly 3 years of living here in fact, but very few Thai people eat beef for some reason. When I come to think of it, I only know of 2 traditional Thai meals which have no meat in. It is quite astonishing considering it is the home to the biggest population of Buddhists in the world! My sister is a vegetarian and we had a conversation once about her coming here, she would find it hard and would have to eat in the fast food chains or restaurants all of the time because you just don't get Thai vegetarians.
lol no I do not feel you have pushed any views onto me, don't worry about that. Everyone has the right to have their opinion and way of life. I have thought about what impact I make sometimes whilst eating meat, but it is a fleeting thought I must say, that is probably because it is so natural and conditioned. Would saying a prayer or mantra before and or after eating help in anyway with regards to karma do you think? I don't know...
Interesting. Thanks for the info regarding Thai vegetarianism. I had wondered because of their large amount of Buddhists. It's interesting to compare Thailand with India, who is also very Buddhist obvs, because India is something like 40% vegetarians.
I've had the thought that if I was traveling in a country like that, I might have to start eating meat again for the time being. It would be so hard with the language barrier, possibly even impossible to try and get vegetarian foods. Especially since many dishes which don't have meat in them can be prepared with meat broths and the like... But I've never actually had to put this into practice.
About the prayer thing... I'm sorta a skeptical type, so I don't have much faith in mantras anymore as far as some sort of magic karmic reversal phrase, you know? (I hope this doesn't offend anyone, just my opinion.) But, having said that, I expect that saying a mantra/prayer before eating meat would make a difference for your own mind. There is nothing wrong with acknowledgement and I do think this would help strengthen compassion and gratitude towards animals, and that is very aligned with Buddhism. Maybe this is all mantras ever were meant to be, who knows...
@zombiegirl I have never actually said a mantra myself of any sort, I don't know why I just never have, but it occurred to me in this instance because if you are going to eat the meat of a killed being, apart from not eating it, it would seem the next best thing. Maybe that is just screwy thinking
If you went traveling as a vegetarian it would only come down to one thing and that is money. People who have never been to Asia or SE Asia often do not realise how westernized it has become. If you speak English you can get by pretty much anywhere these days. You could walk into a resteraunt and the menu would be in English and Thai, and they probably would have a vegetarian selection of meals. Most Thais can speak enough English to get by when it comes to selling you things but seeing as I chose to learn Thai I never speak English anymore. Well that is a lie, I speak Thai 99% of the time or something like that, I do sometimes come into contact with westernes who I know or if my partner is here and feels like she wants to know an English word I will try to teach her some.
But going back to the Thai population, they are something like 95% Buddhist across the country, I forget the actual number now, but they pretty much all eat meat, love their whisky, the sex trade is the biggest in the world and of course the people who kill and cook the meat are also violating a precept. Makes you wonder eh.
@zombiegirl I'm just curious, and this is in no way an attack on your or your profession (I sell alcohol from time to time in my profession), but I wonder if you view selling alcohol, and therefore in a way helping enable people to break the 5th precept in the same way as purchasing meat that has been killed (in a way, encouraging people to break the 1st)?
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zombiegirlbeating the drum of the lifelessin a dry wastelandVeteran
@zombiegirl I'm just curious, and this is in no way an attack on your or your profession (I sell alcohol from time to time in my profession), but I wonder if you view selling alcohol, and therefore in a way helping enable people to break the 5th precept in the same way as purchasing meat that has been killed (in a way, encouraging people to break the 1st)?
That's an interesting question. Well, firstly, I should probably say that I have not taken my precepts, so I do still drink from time to time. But even so, I have waited tables for several years of my life in various bars, and actually, there were times when the guilt from that job was somewhat unbearable. I really hated that aspect of my job at times. When people walk in sober, and you see the slow degradation of their character, yes, it bothered me. But growing up, my father was also an alcoholic so that might have been why I felt that so keenly. But regardless, I had to pay the bills. I am out of that industry now and do not miss it at all, heh.
We could spawn a whole different topic on alcohol, but obviously, I said that I do still drink. Alcohol itself is not the problem, in my opinion, it's how much people partake. You can drink yourself into oblivion or you can drink one drink per hour and have a light buzz, if that, since that is the rate at which your body burns alcohol. My issues with it were never really about breaking the precepts properly (especially since most people you meet in life haven't taken them, heh), it's about alcohol causing heedlessness and the negative effect it can have in people's lives. (Side note, I am working up to quitting drinking completely, I can feel my life moving in this direction, I'm just not there atm.) But I really only feel that I can comment on my personal experiences, so I would say, yes there is a correlation. Both being a butcher and selling intoxicants are not considered "right livelihood" as well, but with everything in Buddhism, it asks you to ask your own questions. When I asked myself such questions while working in bars, I could not give myself answers to satiate my mind.
In today's world, right livelihood can cause some confusion. You want to occupy yourself with activities that promote harmlessness and peace and cause no injury to others. Is being a bartender practicing right livelihood? That is up to you.
How does your vocation affect your meditation practice? Is it helping or hindering? Can you practice harmlessness and drill oil? Can you work with nuclear weapons and maintain serenity for yourself and others? Right livelihood asks that you examine your occupation. Can you spend your work time, energy, and effort practicing peacefulness and kindness in the world?
@zombiegirl I really appreciate your response! I've often wondered about hunting/eating meat, as well as with the fifth precept, if it isn't as simple as it's stated. To refrain from taking a life - plants are living, too, but that's OK (usually given since they aren't sentient). Since we're consuming the meat if we're eating it, is that OK then too, if we do it mindfully/with the awareness that something died in order to feed us?
It's a little harder to drink alcohol mindfully, so I don't know that I can relate the two in exact terms as easily, but one can definitely make mindful choices about how much/where/why they are drinking.
Again, I really appreciate you response, it's good stuff to think about. Thank you.
Comments
Oh, I see. My view is that buying meat in a store is a choice and involves intention, so it's ethically questionable. Like we're saying "I'm a Buddhist so I don't kill, but I'm happy for somebody else to do it for me".
This is what I do not understand then, if you take both actions and look at them, they are the same really aren't they? Killing a cat in the suburbs of England and shotting an elephant in Africa, however it is most likely one person will get a prison sentence yet the other gets put on a TV show and praised.. Hmmm
Hey man, just being realistic but what's going on there is that when someone kills a big trophy animal like that, others such as the TV company and their sponsors profit, so it's legal. With the person just up and killing a cat? no profit there for anybody, so it's illegal.
About the other side of this discussion which I have more or less stayed away from, it seems to be a very grey area seeing as monks and nuns even eat meat. How much responsibility do you actually take on when you eat meat? And you make a good point about putting all of the meat I have consumed in the last 10 years in front of me and the burger in the trash. I personally don't know what to think on the matter lol....
About the monk/nun thing, it is my understanding that that is a very different topic since they are dependent on what is fed to them, and therefore, there is no choice involved. What we're talking about here is not whether or not eating meat is inherently bad, it's about supporting the very obvious suffering of animals due to the inhumane standards of the meat industry. About the responsibility thing, I guess I just feel like, "If you aren't part of the solution, you're part of the problem." Like I said, do I personally really make a huge dent? Not really... but at least I feel like I'm helping in my own little way. I'm doing what I can as an individual. I don't think that you can ask much more than that.
But this is just my thoughts on what I have found to be true for me personally, I try very hard not to push my views on others, so I hope you don't feel that way. I would be happy if everyone even cut out one day of meat eating or ate meat only on the weekends or something. These sorts of little things are choices that in abundance, can have a great impact. Baby steps, you know?
Very few Thai people are veggies, in fact I have never come across one within nearly 3 years of living here in fact, but very few Thai people eat beef for some reason. When I come to think of it, I only know of 2 traditional Thai meals which have no meat in. It is quite astonishing considering it is the home to the biggest population of Buddhists in the world! My sister is a vegetarian and we had a conversation once about her coming here, she would find it hard and would have to eat in the fast food chains or restaurants all of the time because you just don't get Thai vegetarians.
lol no I do not feel you have pushed any views onto me, don't worry about that. Everyone has the right to have their opinion and way of life. I have thought about what impact I make sometimes whilst eating meat, but it is a fleeting thought I must say, that is probably because it is so natural and conditioned. Would saying a prayer or mantra before and or after eating help in anyway with regards to karma do you think? I don't know...
I've had the thought that if I was traveling in a country like that, I might have to start eating meat again for the time being. It would be so hard with the language barrier, possibly even impossible to try and get vegetarian foods. Especially since many dishes which don't have meat in them can be prepared with meat broths and the like... But I've never actually had to put this into practice.
About the prayer thing... I'm sorta a skeptical type, so I don't have much faith in mantras anymore as far as some sort of magic karmic reversal phrase, you know? (I hope this doesn't offend anyone, just my opinion.) But, having said that, I expect that saying a mantra/prayer before eating meat would make a difference for your own mind. There is nothing wrong with acknowledgement and I do think this would help strengthen compassion and gratitude towards animals, and that is very aligned with Buddhism. Maybe this is all mantras ever were meant to be, who knows...
If you went traveling as a vegetarian it would only come down to one thing and that is money. People who have never been to Asia or SE Asia often do not realise how westernized it has become. If you speak English you can get by pretty much anywhere these days. You could walk into a resteraunt and the menu would be in English and Thai, and they probably would have a vegetarian selection of meals. Most Thais can speak enough English to get by when it comes to selling you things but seeing as I chose to learn Thai I never speak English anymore. Well that is a lie, I speak Thai 99% of the time or something like that, I do sometimes come into contact with westernes who I know or if my partner is here and feels like she wants to know an English word I will try to teach her some.
But going back to the Thai population, they are something like 95% Buddhist across the country, I forget the actual number now, but they pretty much all eat meat, love their whisky, the sex trade is the biggest in the world and of course the people who kill and cook the meat are also violating a precept. Makes you wonder eh.
We could spawn a whole different topic on alcohol, but obviously, I said that I do still drink. Alcohol itself is not the problem, in my opinion, it's how much people partake. You can drink yourself into oblivion or you can drink one drink per hour and have a light buzz, if that, since that is the rate at which your body burns alcohol. My issues with it were never really about breaking the precepts properly (especially since most people you meet in life haven't taken them, heh), it's about alcohol causing heedlessness and the negative effect it can have in people's lives. (Side note, I am working up to quitting drinking completely, I can feel my life moving in this direction, I'm just not there atm.) But I really only feel that I can comment on my personal experiences, so I would say, yes there is a correlation. Both being a butcher and selling intoxicants are not considered "right livelihood" as well, but with everything in Buddhism, it asks you to ask your own questions. When I asked myself such questions while working in bars, I could not give myself answers to satiate my mind. (-Right Livelihood)
It's a little harder to drink alcohol mindfully, so I don't know that I can relate the two in exact terms as easily, but one can definitely make mindful choices about how much/where/why they are drinking.
Again, I really appreciate you response, it's good stuff to think about. Thank you.