My thoughts on 9/11

ThailandTom

@RebeccaS attack or defend?

tmottes

vinlyn said:

seeker242 said:

People should be allowed to verbally attack America whenever they want. The fact that they are allowed to do this, without penalty, is one thing that makes this country great to begin with! The freedom to verbally attack America is a quintessentially American ideal! Is it not?

Okay, good point in terms of the American Constitution. But we're also on a Buddhist website. Is "verbal attack" "right speech"?

Can you point out specifically what you are referring to when you say "verbal attack"?

vinlyn

tmottes said:

vinlyn said:

seeker242 said:

People should be allowed to verbally attack America whenever they want. The fact that they are allowed to do this, without penalty, is one thing that makes this country great to begin with! The freedom to verbally attack America is a quintessentially American ideal! Is it not?

Okay, good point in terms of the American Constitution. But we're also on a Buddhist website. Is "verbal attack" "right speech"?

Can you point out specifically what you are referring to when you say "verbal attack"?

This is a classic example of someone taking a person out of context.

Read @seeker242 comment...I responded directly to that comment.

tmottes

vinlyn said:

tmottes said:

vinlyn said:

seeker242 said:

People should be allowed to verbally attack America whenever they want. The fact that they are allowed to do this, without penalty, is one thing that makes this country great to begin with! The freedom to verbally attack America is a quintessentially American ideal! Is it not?

Okay, good point in terms of the American Constitution. But we're also on a Buddhist website. Is "verbal attack" "right speech"?

Can you point out specifically what you are referring to when you say "verbal attack"?

This is a classic example of someone taking a person out of context.

Read @seeker242 comment...I responded directly to that comment.

@vinlyn It was not taken out of context... I was asking to what you were referring. I didn't say anything about anybody verbally attacking anybody else. I didn't make a value judgement about your statement. I just didn't read the post you specifically replied to and was asking for clarification without doing my due research. Thank you for pointing me to what you were referring, it was helpful in me understanding your comment.

PrairieGhost

RebeccaS

If being Buddhist is rolling over while we are attacked then I'm not interested in being Buddhist.

Whether I'm seen as a coward or appeaser, I choose not to do what results in this, whatever narrative anyone's mind produces to justify such a course of action.

(warning: link to shocking image)

http://thewe.cc/thewei/_/images_4/us_terror_state__/iraq_children_injured_by_us_bombing.jpe

You would have to cut off my fingers and press the button with them to get me to drop that bomb.

Beej

Wow. I guess I'm not surprised that so many people have such a strong reaction to this event. And here is the reason I think why: I was at a baseball game last night and I kept thinking about the "We will never forget" slogan that goes on with 9/11. It's on banners and t-shirts and hats and everywhere. It'a almost as if there is some propoganda machine attempting to constantly remind people to be angry as fuck about something that was perpetrated by a few, effected some, and drawn out in excruciating sensationalism by a media gone wild.

I'm not sure what any hoped to gain out of this thread, but I am sure that the slogan that we attatch to this tragic holliday has certainly taken root in the minds of many and hasn't really inspired us to do much but foster our hate and perpetuate our ignorance of others. I can't really say that "never forgetting" is a positive thing. But it might be that I just don't get it all together. Either way, I didn't feel prouder to be an American when Bin Laden was killed or when we went to war or even last night when I was at a baseball game, in America. I just feel like pride (of the terrorists,etc) is what caused all this shit in the first place. And that makes me think that pride is a totally abhorent emotion.

Telly03

I think I've had all the disrespect I can handle, I'm out.

I've enjoyed my last year on this site, learned much... much respect to Federica and Vinlyn, thanks guys.

vinlyn

Sorry to see you go @Tellu03. Although we sometimes didn't see eye to eye, I thought you were a good and interesting "poster".

PrairieGhost

Sorry if you felt disrespected by my post Telly03. I know that's the lamest type of apology, but I can't take the post back.

tmottes

Where is the discussion? Where is the exchange of ideas? Where is the openness to learning from viewpoints different from our own (myself included, if not more so since I am genuinely seeking to understand)? I want to understand why this is all disrespectful? I honestly don't understand what is going on here.

RebeccaS

I'm with Telly. When I said I was done yesterday, I thought maybe I had over reacted and came back, but I don't think I did over react. Thanks to everyone, I've also learned a lot in the short time I've been here, but I'm done. Cheers.

PrairieGhost

RebeccaS

People are going to feel very strongly on this issue, but that doesn't mean they aren't respecting others.

vinlyn

Don't go, Rebecca! You're one of my favorite posters!!!!!

RebeccaS

@Vinlyn that's very kind of you. I've greatly enjoyed getting to know you through your posts and have learned a lot ftom you. ((hugs))

But as much as I've enjoyed my time here, I don't think I really fit in with this community. Disagreements are cool, but I've been really shocked by some of the things said in this thread and feel very uncomfortable and don't think I really belong in a place where so many people feel so very differently to how I feel. It's like I'm at a Star Wars convention when I'm actually a Stargate fan

seeker242

vinlyn said:

seeker242 said:

People should be allowed to verbally attack America whenever they want. The fact that they are allowed to do this, without penalty, is one thing that makes this country great to begin with! The freedom to verbally attack America is a quintessentially American ideal! Is it not?

Okay, good point in terms of the American Constitution. But we're also on a Buddhist website. Is "verbal attack" "right speech"?

I think so if you are "attacking" an institution who is deliberately pro-war, pro-assassination, pro-torture, etc, etc.

RebeccaS said:

If being Buddhist is rolling over while we are attacked then I'm not interested in being Buddhist.

Yes! But at the same time, if we did not imprison and torture to death these people to begin with, they most likely would not be attacking us to begin with. But we did do that and 9/11 was a consequence of those actions. Going around torturing people, has consequences. Going around torturing people, is what has caused us to lose freedoms. People just don't sit back and do nothing after you torture their friends to death.

Beej

I work with children. They're really no different than adults are, just shorter. One of the things that I have to deal with is conflict resolution. Children get into spats, sometimes fights, and other things where they think they have been wronged. Some people that I work with (older individuals mostly,b aby boomers) don't see conflict resolution as something that requires a little bit of personal reflection, even in the one helping to resolve the conflict. They tell the children what is right, they tell the children what to say, they even tell them how to say it. They condition the children to react. They condition the children to respond. They condition the children how to feel about the resolution. This is a mistake, IMO. I don't do that when resolving conflict. I ask questions. I think about myself in the context they are working with. I try to get the kids to think about what happened and speak based off of their thoughts and feelings, not off of conditioned responses. I'm just there to facilitate the resolution, not resolve it for them. Most kids take to this, some don't. Some get angry when you won't help them illicite a conditioned response. Some want to take their ball and go home. But most kids get calmer when you place the responsibility in their hands and you help them to see that what actually happened in their problem, that it is over with, and that it's much better to let it go and move on, so that the next time they either have the skills to deal with it themselves, or they just don't search for some conditioned experience/ response to fall back on. It doesn't work with all kids, but most. Adults really aren't so different.

RebeccaS

seeker242 said:

vinlyn said:

seeker242 said:

People should be allowed to verbally attack America whenever they want. The fact that they are allowed to do this, without penalty, is one thing that makes this country great to begin with! The freedom to verbally attack America is a quintessentially American ideal! Is it not?

Okay, good point in terms of the American Constitution. But we're also on a Buddhist website. Is "verbal attack" "right speech"?

I think so if you are "attacking" an institution who is deliberately pro-war, pro-assassination, pro-torture, etc, etc.

RebeccaS said:

If being Buddhist is rolling over while we are attacked then I'm not interested in being Buddhist.

Yes! But at the same time, if we did not imprison and torture to death these people to begin with, they most likely would not be attacking us to begin with. But we did do that and 9/11 was a consequence of those actions. Going around torturing people, has consequences. Going around torturing people, is what has caused us to lose freedoms. People just don't sit back and do nothing after you torture their friends to death.

Yeah. I don't belong here.

seeker242

If you think torturing people is a good thing, then yes I would say you don't belong here. That is about as anti-Buddhist as you can get!

tmottes

seeker242 said:

If you think torturing people is a good thing, then yes I would say you don't belong here. That is about as anti-Buddhist as you can get!

I would disagree...I feel all belong here. Compassion comes from understanding that all suffer and react to that suffering differently.

tmottes

@RebeccaS I would suggest you take some time away, but don't leave permenently until you have had a chance to reflect on what has happened. I was told by a wise person once that you don't breakup with somebody when you are angry with them. You breakup when you are happy, but not longer want to be with them.

There is a lot to be gained from this forum; don't throw the baby out with the bathwater I always thought that was a silly mental image.

vinlyn

seeker242 said:

vinlyn said:

seeker242 said:

People should be allowed to verbally attack America whenever they want. The fact that they are allowed to do this, without penalty, is one thing that makes this country great to begin with! The freedom to verbally attack America is a quintessentially American ideal! Is it not?

Okay, good point in terms of the American Constitution. But we're also on a Buddhist website. Is "verbal attack" "right speech"?

I think so if you are "attacking" an institution who is deliberately pro-war, pro-assassination, pro-torture, etc, etc.

RebeccaS said:

If being Buddhist is rolling over while we are attacked then I'm not interested in being Buddhist.

Yes! But at the same time, if we did not imprison and torture to death these people to begin with, they most likely would not be attacking us to begin with. But we did do that and 9/11 was a consequence of those actions. Going around torturing people, has consequences. Going around torturing people, is what has caused us to lose freedoms. People just don't sit back and do nothing after you torture their friends to death.

Seeker, you have a right to your opinion. You have a right to express your opinion. But frankly, the anti-American and pro-radical Islam sentiments that come up on this website are what is turning some people off, while others are enjoying it.

My adopted adult son is back living in Pakistan (Islamabad), and has been trying his best to convince me to come visit. I have told him I don't feel safe going there, and he says, "Don't worry. You can stay inside the house the whole time so you will be safe".

Does America have its faults. We sure do. But if you've read much about the Taliban and associated groups and what they do, how anyone can have sympathy for them I don't understand.

PrairieGhost

Vinlyn

how anyone can have sympathy for them I don't understand.

People scream in the same language on both sides of a conflict, and anyone listening should have no problem understanding, whatever he thinks about who is right.

karasti

There are ways to deal with things other than to beget violence with more violence. We're already talking about justice for the 4 people who died in the attack in Libya last night. Does that mean we just sit down and talk nice to the Taliban and other groups like them? not necessarily, but going off to kill more people so they are angrier and more justified in killing others weaker than them, or justified in attacking us again just isnt' the answer, either.

Last weekend, my 9 year old son was pulled off the monkey bars by a 15 year old, and punched in the stomach. He came home upset, crying, hurt and afraid. When he left the park, he told the older kid "I hate you! You're the worst kid on the planet!" We dealt with it by calling the sheriff, filing a report and having the sheriff talk to the kid and his parents. (long history behind why we went that route, doesn't really matter). 2 days later, the older kid was at the park again, and my son went down there and said "Hey, you know the other day when you hit me, and I said I hated you and that you were a horrible kid? I just wanted to apologize for saying mean things to you. Just because you did mean things to me, doesn't mean I needed to be mean back."

Does it mean the kid magically learned something and will become an upstanding citizen who doesn't pick on children? I doubt it. But my son learned a whole lot about being true to his nature and being a good person in the face of difficult situations. I didn't put him up to it, I didn't even know it happened until we talked about it later that night (the apology part I mean). He learned it because we practice compassion in our house, and because on the first day of school they had a program called Rachel's Challenege, about using care and compassion. It's a program put on by the Rachel Scott foundation, for one of the girls who died in Columbine. You can make good out of horrible situations. Choosing to make more bad out of bad is also a choice, and is unnecessary.

vinlyn

Female circumcision, the poisoning of the girls at a girl's school simply because they were going to school, the destruction of historic Buddhas...I could go on and on.

Jason

I'm not really sure what's going on in this thread anymore, or what it is that people are so upset about, but I'm taking the liberty of closing it since it seems to have devolved to such an extent that it isn't even a discussion anymore.