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It's in Montrose, Colorado on the western slope, just south of the town on US-550. Don't get me wrong, it's not a huge museum, and would not be worth a trip solely for that, but it is well worth a stop if one is heading down the Million Dollar Highway. And, as I said, it is where Chief Ouray and his wife actually lived later in their life.
An excellent documentary is " 500 Nations " (1995) available at Amazon.com and other online sellers. It's an 8-part series on 4 DVDs, beautifully done, and historically as accurate as possible.
I own it and have watched it twice in the last 10 years or so. I both loved it and hated it. I loved it because it's an important story to know and teach to every generation. I hated it because each time when it was over, I didn't know what to do. I felt helpless and ineffectual in making things better for our native peoples (what's left of them) and for America in general.
By coincidence, last night I happened to finish watching "Into The West", the Spielberg mini-series of a few years ago. The last 2 hour episode is very moving -- pretty much 2 hours of covering the end of the Indian Wars, including Wounded Knee. So sad to see how stupid mens' (on both sides) foolish decisions caused so much suffering.
First, I think before we condemn Columbus and the people of Columbus' time, we ought to remember that we, today, are living under the pop-mindset of 2012. If you were looking at the New World in 1512 or 1712 or 1812, you -- those of you who are ranting -- would almost certainly have the pop-mindset of that era, rather than the politically correct mindset of the present era. I'm not saying that what was done in previous centuries was right (although on this Buddhist website we have people saying there is no right or wrong). Clearly it wasn't. But we are looking back in hindsight through the lens of 2012.
While I think you have a point, I don't think that those of us who are critical of Columbus Day would necessarily have the pop-mindset of that era. In Columbus' day, there were people who spoke out against, and tried to stop, the brutal treatment of the Americas' indigenous people, just as there were people who spoke out against, and tried to stop, slavery prior to the Civil War, etc. It's entirely possible that those of us you feel are 'ranting' about this genocide would have be among the dissenters had we been born back then.
Second, I refuse to feel personally guilty about an event that happened 148 years ago. I wasn't there. Nor were any of my relatives. Nor anyone I knew. I had nothing to do with it. (I selected this particular date as just one of the great injustices that was done against the Indian people -- the Sand Creek Massacre, here in Colorado).
Third, despite all the easy talk, what are you willing to personally do about it. See, this is where it all breaks down. The old saying that "talk is cheap" is pretty meaningful. For example, let's say that @Zero owns a house in Colorado Springs here in the United States. He is very upset about what was done by Columbus and all of those in the era of Westward Expansion. He takes his family on a little trip out on the High Plains of Colorado and visits the Sand Creek Massacre site and Beecher Island Battleground. He learns about this American Indian history of the state he's living in. Let's see, is he going to give up and donate his house to the Cheyenne Indians of today, pack up, and hop a boat and go back to Europe?
Perhaps each White American should pay an additional tax of $10,000 this year and that combined sum for all Americans should be given to the various Indian tribes and individual Indians who have moved off the reservations. Or, if you say that will never be passed by Congress, go ahead...on your own give $10,000 to some Indian group.
You see, you talk, talk, talk, but I have yet to see any of you offer a single practical suggestion as to what to do about it.
Now, I know, someone is going to say "Well, what can I do about it?" Well, I will just tell you what one of my teachers did about it -- for 3 years she lived on an Indian reservation in Arizona and taught at a school run by the Navajo nation for a pittance compared to what she could have earned in mainstream culture. So, when she rants, I listen.
That's pretty cool. Not all of us can be as awesome as your teacher, though. All some of us can do is rant and try to get other people interested and pissed-off enough to collectively do something to change these things. My one letter to Congress certainly isn't going to do it.
Oh, and by the way, I have known a number of Indians, and they have referred to themselves as "Indian" or "American Indian". And, in fact, I have heard them say, "I am proud to be an American Indian". I personally have never talked to anyone who referred to themselves as "Native American". I hear the white folks do that.
Not really sure what the point is here. Are you criticizing the use of the term 'Native American'?
@karasti, I didn't say "nobody" is doing anything. In fact, you gave examples of how you are doing something. I related that most of the people who rant about it aren't doing anything. And talking about it is a good thing, IF it leads to understanding and action on the part of people (in general).
However, to be honest with you, in my lifetime I have seen little (if any) real progress in improving life on the Indian reservations. In fact, I would submit to you that American Indians are the most ignored minority in the United States. You may possibly recall that Bill Clinton, when President (and also after his presidency), attempted to begin some dialog on the topic. It went absolutely nowhere.
I'm not criticizing you or any other specific person. You're right, we can't all do something to solve all the world's problems. But I remember when I was a principal and once a week we would have an all-morning admin meetings. Sometimes we'd solve some problems, come up with some possible strategies, make a plan, whatever. And other days we'd sum up the meeting by saying, "Well, that was a wasted 3 hours. We accomplished nothing."
No, you seem to be criticizing all of us who take issue with this particular national holiday.
It's so easy to condemn Columbus and Ferdinand and Isabella...after all they're dead. These rants against them, while perhaps fair, do nothing to solve any issues. Did you notice that throughout this thread, no one said, "Well, to make some amends to the American Indians, perhaps Americans should _____." Or, "To improve the life of American Indians, people could _____."
So how about if everyone who reads this thread comes up with just one practical suggestion about how our country or individuals could do something to improve the situation?
Collectively pressure the government to get rid of Columbus Day, or at least to rename it. Change history text books to adequately address things such as what happened to the indigenous population of the Americas at the hands of European settlers, as well as the newly formed US, or else pressure schools to use books like Howard Zinn's A People's History of the United States that do. Pressure the government to officially apologize for the Indian Removal Act, the Trail of Tears, reneging on treaties, etc. And even more radical, pressure the government to honour its treaties and return land that was stolen, or else fully compensate tribes for the land that was illegally taken from them.
And by the way, on this forum at one time or another, I'm almost sure I've heard people say that Buddhists shouldn't go around condemning others. It's not the Buddhist way. Apparently that's true unless the person being condemned is no longer a popular world figure.
First, I think before we condemn Columbus and the people of Columbus' time, we ought to remember that we, today, are living under the pop-mindset of 2012. If you were looking at the New World in 1512 or 1712 or 1812, you -- those of you who are ranting -- would almost certainly have the pop-mindset of that era, rather than the politically correct mindset of the present era. I'm not saying that what was done in previous centuries was right (although on this Buddhist website we have people saying there is no right or wrong). Clearly it wasn't. But we are looking back in hindsight through the lens of 2012.
While I think you have a point, I don't think that those of us who are critical of Columbus Day would necessarily have the pop-mindset of that era. In Columbus' day, there were people who spoke out against, and tried to stop, the brutal treatment of the Americas' indigenous people, just as there were people who spoke out against, and tried to stop, slavery prior to the Civil War, etc. It's entirely possible that those of us you feel are 'ranting' about this genocide would have be among the dissenters had we been born back then.
Second, I refuse to feel personally guilty about an event that happened 148 years ago. I wasn't there. Nor were any of my relatives. Nor anyone I knew. I had nothing to do with it. (I selected this particular date as just one of the great injustices that was done against the Indian people -- the Sand Creek Massacre, here in Colorado).
Third, despite all the easy talk, what are you willing to personally do about it. See, this is where it all breaks down. The old saying that "talk is cheap" is pretty meaningful. For example, let's say that @Zero owns a house in Colorado Springs here in the United States. He is very upset about what was done by Columbus and all of those in the era of Westward Expansion. He takes his family on a little trip out on the High Plains of Colorado and visits the Sand Creek Massacre site and Beecher Island Battleground. He learns about this American Indian history of the state he's living in. Let's see, is he going to give up and donate his house to the Cheyenne Indians of today, pack up, and hop a boat and go back to Europe?
Perhaps each White American should pay an additional tax of $10,000 this year and that combined sum for all Americans should be given to the various Indian tribes and individual Indians who have moved off the reservations. Or, if you say that will never be passed by Congress, go ahead...on your own give $10,000 to some Indian group.
You see, you talk, talk, talk, but I have yet to see any of you offer a single practical suggestion as to what to do about it.
Now, I know, someone is going to say "Well, what can I do about it?" Well, I will just tell you what one of my teachers did about it -- for 3 years she lived on an Indian reservation in Arizona and taught at a school run by the Navajo nation for a pittance compared to what she could have earned in mainstream culture. So, when she rants, I listen.
That's pretty cool. Not all of us can be as awesome as your teacher, though. All some of us can do is rant and try to get other people interested and pissed-off enough to collectively do something to change these things. My one letter to Congress certainly isn't going to do it.
Oh, and by the way, I have known a number of Indians, and they have referred to themselves as "Indian" or "American Indian". And, in fact, I have heard them say, "I am proud to be an American Indian". I personally have never talked to anyone who referred to themselves as "Native American". I hear the white folks do that.
Not really sure what the point is here. Are you criticizing the use of the term 'Native American'?
@karasti, I didn't say "nobody" is doing anything. In fact, you gave examples of how you are doing something. I related that most of the people who rant about it aren't doing anything. And talking about it is a good thing, IF it leads to understanding and action on the part of people (in general).
However, to be honest with you, in my lifetime I have seen little (if any) real progress in improving life on the Indian reservations. In fact, I would submit to you that American Indians are the most ignored minority in the United States. You may possibly recall that Bill Clinton, when President (and also after his presidency), attempted to begin some dialog on the topic. It went absolutely nowhere.
I'm not criticizing you or any other specific person. You're right, we can't all do something to solve all the world's problems. But I remember when I was a principal and once a week we would have an all-morning admin meetings. Sometimes we'd solve some problems, come up with some possible strategies, make a plan, whatever. And other days we'd sum up the meeting by saying, "Well, that was a wasted 3 hours. We accomplished nothing."
No, you seem to be criticizing all of us who take issue with this particular national holiday.
It's so easy to condemn Columbus and Ferdinand and Isabella...after all they're dead. These rants against them, while perhaps fair, do nothing to solve any issues. Did you notice that throughout this thread, no one said, "Well, to make some amends to the American Indians, perhaps Americans should _____." Or, "To improve the life of American Indians, people could _____."
So how about if everyone who reads this thread comes up with just one practical suggestion about how our country or individuals could do something to improve the situation?
Collectively pressure the government to get rid of Columbus Day, or at least to rename it. Change history text books to adequately address things such as what happened to the indigenous population of the Americas at the hands of European settlers, as well as the newly formed US, or else pressure schools to use books like Howard Zinn's A People's History of the United States that do. Pressure the government to officially apologize for the Indian Removal Act, the Trail of Tears, reneging on treaties, etc. And even more radical, pressure the government to honour its treaties and return land that was stolen, or else fully compensate tribes for the land that was illegally taken from them.
And by the way, on this forum at one time or another, I'm almost sure I've heard people say that Buddhists shouldn't go around condemning others. It's not the Buddhist way. Apparently that's true unless the person being condemned is no longer a popular world figure.
Criticizing ≠ condemning.
Jason, you are making the same mistake in the discussion aspect of this thread that others are making. When I talk about people ranting about this topic, I don't necessarily mean someone on this forum are ranting...I'm talking about this topic and how it is sometimes/often discussed. And again, I didn't say anyone here is making me feel guilty about the topic, but often when people discuss this topic, they do play that little game.
I admire you for writing your Congressman about this issue. That's an excellent example of doing more than just talking.
You've also jumped to a conclusion about my position. No where did I take issue with people who do not support this national holiday. What I took issue with was 1.) the politically correct condemnation (by many people, not necessarily anyone here) of what people did in a culture we can't understand because we are too far removed from it; and 2.) just talking, but not walking the walk. In fact, I don't think it should be a national holiday or state holiday at all. Even in the "old days", like when I was a kid, I don't think it reached a standard that would justify a holiday, To be honest, most people just take it as a day off, and nothing more. Very few people actually honor Columbus or Ferdinand or Isabella. I don't personally know a single individual who actually honors Columbus, although I know there are Italians who do.
In terms of "Native American"...no, I have no problem with it, although those included in the term crossed the Bering Land Bridge, making their cultural group nomadic. I'm just saying of the NA's I have known, they have called themselves Indians or American Indians...and if it is good enough for those people, I don't think I should be criticized by a term that I have only heard White people use. It reminds me of an incident at our school quite a long time ago. I think it was at Back To School Night, and I was giving a talk about our test scores, which were divided out racially. A White parent stood up and said, "Mr. Lynch, I'd think you'd know that you're supposed to use the term African-American." A Black parent stood up and said, "Lady, there are several families here, including mine, who are diplomatic. We are still citizens of African countries. We are not African-American. We are Black. Leave Mr. Lynch alone."
Just thought I'd mention: NA's prefer White people to use the term NA, unless they know them well, and have accepted them into the fold, so to speak. And even then, they prefer we use the word "Native". They use the term "Indian" among themselves, but any Joe or Jane Schmoe isn't supposed to use the term. I've actually heard this discussed behind closed doors. I prefer to err on the side of caution, myself. I think it depends in part on other factors, like how politicized someone is, or what generation they're from.
Jason, you are making the same mistake in the discussion aspect of this thread that others are making. When I talk about people ranting about this topic, I don't necessarily mean someone on this forum are ranting...I'm talking about this topic and how it is sometimes/often discussed. And again, I didn't say anyone here is making me feel guilty about the topic, but often when people discuss this topic, they do play that little game.
Perhaps, but perhaps we're making this 'mistake' because of the way you're expressing your criticisms. For example, you say things like, "First, I think before we condemn Columbus and the people of Columbus' time, we ought to remember that we, today, are living under the pop-mindset of 2012. If you were looking at the New World in 1512 or 1712 or 1812, you -- those of you who are ranting -- would almost certainly have the pop-mindset of that era, rather than the politically correct mindset of the present era." This clearly seems to be directed towards members of this forum.
As for myself, the title of my blog post is "happy indigenous peoples' day (my yearly columbus day rant)," so I hope it's easy to see why I might feel that your statements are directed towards me, even if indirectly since I'm just one of many here 'ranting' about Columbus Day.
You've also jumped to a conclusion about my position. No where did I take issue with people who do not support this national holiday. What I took issue with was 1.) the politically correct condemnation (by many people, not necessarily anyone here) of what people did in a culture we can't understand because we are too far removed from it; and 2.) just talking, but not walking the walk. In fact, I don't think it should be a national holiday or state holiday at all. Even in the "old days", like when I was a kid, I don't think it reached a standard that would justify a holiday, To be honest, most people just take it as a day off, and nothing more. Very few people actually honor Columbus or Ferdinand or Isabella. I don't personally know a single individual who actually honors Columbus, although I know there are Italians who do.
I'm not making any conclusions about your position, only assessments of your responses. This thread itself is about Columbus Day and why we would celebrate it considering many of the terrible things Columbus and his crew did; and his actions are directly related to our criticisms of the national holiday in his honour.
In terms of "Native American"...no, I have no problem with it, although those included in the term crossed the Bering Land Bridge, making their cultural group nomadic. I'm just saying of the NA's I have known, they have called themselves Indians or American Indians...and if it is good enough for those people, I don't think I should be criticized by a term that I have only heard White people use. It reminds me of an incident at our school quite a long time ago. I think it was at Back To School Night, and I was giving a talk about our test scores, which were divided out racially. A White parent stood up and said, "Mr. Lynch, I'd think you'd know that you're supposed to use the term African-American." A Black parent stood up and said, "Lady, there are several families here, including mine, who are diplomatic. We are still citizens of African countries. We are not African-American. We are Black. Leave Mr. Lynch alone."
If you don't have a problem with it, then why even bother to bring it up? And just for reference, white people aren't the only ones who use the term Native American, not that any of this is even relevant to the OP.
I know people who are offended at being called "Indians" "blacks" or "Orientals" or worse referring to all Asian people as "Chinese". Most people who belong to those groups aren't going to be offended by "Native American" "African American" or "Asian" and it's safer to use those words when you don't know the people or are addressing a group, than to risk offending someone. A very good friend of mine lives in Toronto and is Anishinaabe and she refers to herself as "First Nation" and not "Indian." Not to mention when you happen to have friends who are from India, it starts to get really confusing.
Just ran across this: "A 1995 Census Bureau Survey of preferences for racial and ethnic terminology (there is no more recent survey) indicated that 49% of Native people preferred being called American Indian, 37% preferred Native American, 3.6% preferred "some other term," and 5% had no preference."
Comments
For example -- http://www.nrcprograms.org
To All:
An excellent documentary is " 500 Nations " (1995) available at Amazon.com and other online sellers. It's an 8-part series on 4 DVDs, beautifully done, and historically as accurate as possible.
I own it and have watched it twice in the last 10 years or so. I both loved it and hated it.
I loved it because it's an important story to know and teach to every generation.
I hated it because each time when it was over, I didn't know what to do. I felt helpless and ineffectual in making things better for our native peoples (what's left of them) and for America in general.
I admire you for writing your Congressman about this issue. That's an excellent example of doing more than just talking.
You've also jumped to a conclusion about my position. No where did I take issue with people who do not support this national holiday. What I took issue with was 1.) the politically correct condemnation (by many people, not necessarily anyone here) of what people did in a culture we can't understand because we are too far removed from it; and 2.) just talking, but not walking the walk. In fact, I don't think it should be a national holiday or state holiday at all. Even in the "old days", like when I was a kid, I don't think it reached a standard that would justify a holiday, To be honest, most people just take it as a day off, and nothing more. Very few people actually honor Columbus or Ferdinand or Isabella. I don't personally know a single individual who actually honors Columbus, although I know there are Italians who do.
In terms of "Native American"...no, I have no problem with it, although those included in the term crossed the Bering Land Bridge, making their cultural group nomadic. I'm just saying of the NA's I have known, they have called themselves Indians or American Indians...and if it is good enough for those people, I don't think I should be criticized by a term that I have only heard White people use. It reminds me of an incident at our school quite a long time ago. I think it was at Back To School Night, and I was giving a talk about our test scores, which were divided out racially. A White parent stood up and said, "Mr. Lynch, I'd think you'd know that you're supposed to use the term African-American." A Black parent stood up and said, "Lady, there are several families here, including mine, who are diplomatic. We are still citizens of African countries. We are not African-American. We are Black. Leave Mr. Lynch alone."
See, now you've got me ranting! :-)
As for myself, the title of my blog post is "happy indigenous peoples' day (my yearly columbus day rant)," so I hope it's easy to see why I might feel that your statements are directed towards me, even if indirectly since I'm just one of many here 'ranting' about Columbus Day. I'm not making any conclusions about your position, only assessments of your responses. This thread itself is about Columbus Day and why we would celebrate it considering many of the terrible things Columbus and his crew did; and his actions are directly related to our criticisms of the national holiday in his honour. If you don't have a problem with it, then why even bother to bring it up? And just for reference, white people aren't the only ones who use the term Native American, not that any of this is even relevant to the OP.
Read more: American Indian versus Native American — Infoplease.com http://www.infoplease.com/spot/aihmterms.html#ixzz2A4ZkEnO8