Fishing

FairyFeller

I've been a strict veggie for years so don't eat fish or anything that has ever been alive and I know a lot of people might say that you don't need to be vegetarian to be a good Buddhist.

I do however go fishing to catch food for my cats, I do buy tinned cat food but think fresh caught fish is a nice treat and can e more nutritious. The reason I started fishing in the first place was for relaxation but that has now been replaced by meditation etc. but still like giving my cats nice fresh food. They're carnivores so they need meat/fish.

How would this fit in with the whole killing things side of Buddhism.

MaryAnne

I might get boo-ed for this perspective, but I'm going to go with the Native Americans on this -

1. Take only what you need

2. No long suffering for the animal (quick, clean kill)

3. Handle the animal/fish with respect and thank the Earth/Universe/Gods/whomever for the gift of food

4. Give back to the earth in some way (plant a tree, feed other fish, birds or animals, etc)

5. Accept (without reluctance) that there may be Karmic consequences for your actions.

If those cats of yours were feral cats, they would be operating within their own natural food chain. You, as their caretaker, must provide for them and yet are doing nothing they wouldn't do themselves if they could.

I_AM_THAT

Before I started practicing Buddhism I was a recreational fisherman. I would practice catch and release, and always enjoyed my time in the great outdoors. Once I started this practice, I felt a sense of guilt for inflicting pain and suffering on another life form for my own pleasure and enjoyment. Needless to say I no longer fish, but I also do not judge others that do, for that is their own choice.

So, to answer your question I would say that is up to you and how you feel about the catching and the subsequent killing of the fish to feed your cat. Only you can make that choice.

In my view, the rule is all about your intent and why you feel you need to take the life of another life form.

If you do decide to continue to fish for food, I would suggest that you be sure and make the effort in thanking the fish for its life and the food it is providing for your cat.

Minbari

No Booing from me MaryAnne, you just about nailed it, with common sense and reason.

Buddhism is not about blind fanatical perfection. The Enlightened One taught his followers to find a middle Path between extreme practices and opinions."

@FairyFeller
In practice your cats are Hungry, they love fish, and you are alleviating their suffering by providing it.
I see no reason to baulk at the idea, you are not willfully advocating mass Piscatorial Slaughter, but merely providing your animal companions with bounty that the earth has provided, as MaryAnne said Minimal suffering and a swift Clean Kill

robot

A vet once told me that fish is not great for cats. I believe the problem is that it is too rich in magnesium or maybe it was manganese or perhaps both and causes crystals in the urinary tract resulting in infections. Does that sound right? If it is, then killing fish for your cat may be harming both fish and cat unnecessarily.
I fish for a living and while I don't really agree with tormenting fish for pleasure, I do have a number of friends who make a living from guiding and others who fish for food.
I try to be as respectful as I can and to remember that each fish is giving up it's life, for me to live and have things. It's easy to forget though, when it's really busy.

karasti

As long as it isn't the majority of the diet, it's generally ok. You might want to check with the local Natural Resource dept, they usually keep a list of lakes/rivers where the fish have higher mercury content. Also, if I remember right, cats aren't supposed to have raw fish, at least not much of it, it's better for them cooked. Something about an enzyme in raw fish that can destroy vitamin B in a cat and cause them to become deficient. But I doubt that a bit of raw fish once in a while will cause that as long as they are eating a balanced normal cat food diet. It's true that fish is a natural food, but domestic cats have been domesticated so long they do not digest it the same way as wild cats do. I don't remember where I read about the vitamin thing and raw fish, so you might want to check on that, I'm not a vet, lol.

DairyLama

FairyFeller said:

They're carnivores so they need meat/fish.

Most cats seem to survive quite happily without fresh meat and fish.

RebeccaS

My cats always eat our chicken wings. We try to keep them away from them but they go through the trash to get them. Whenever I just try to give them chicken they don't want it :rolleyes: They also like chocolate milk and cups of tea and yoghurt. Other than that they just like the canned food, they've never shown much interest in fresh food.

ThailandTom

PedanticPorpoise said:

FairyFeller said:

They're carnivores so they need meat/fish.

Most cats seem to survive quite happily without fresh meat and fish.


This, there is enough of the stuff a cat needs to be healthy in those dry crispy cat foods. Also think of this @Fairyfeller if you do not eat any meat, what is the difference of you giving it to your cats or pets? You are still involved in the killing process.

I was taken deep sea fishing with my dad off of the coast of Whitby in NE England from the age of 7 on 6 hour trips with other people. I could never stand to kill the fish or sea it happening, and that was back then. Just because a life form has less intellect does not mean it feels les pain.

tmottes

I suggest looking into how most commercial cat "food" is made. I look at my pets as my responsibility (I got them, now I need to take proper care of them), if I feed them anything less than what I would eat or what I would feed my children, I feel I have been greedy to save a few bucks.

karasti

I agree with tmottes. Very little pet food is what would be considered even remotely normal. Corn meal, grains, etc are not a normal part of a pet diet, and feeding them the wrong diet (such as one completely lacking in real food) is as bad for them as it is for us! When we got our dog, our vet recommended feeding her a 30% real food diet-lightly cooked meat and some veggies if she'd eat them (which she does) unseasoned, of course. The foods that are higher quality with better ingredients are NOT cheap, which is why you must be careful in deciding to have a pet. Getting a cat or dog with the intention of feeding them the cheapest walmart dog/cat food you can find, is no different than have a child with the intention of allowing them to live on ramen noodles and raw hot dogs.

karasti

I wanted to add that just because they seem fine and healthy early on doesn't matter much. Just like in people, the damage of a poor diet occurs over time, and many animals die far shore of their maximum age, and suffer poor health far earlier than they should.

FairyFeller

MaryAnne said:

I might get boo-ed for this perspective, but I'm going to go with the Native Americans on this -

1. Take only what you need

2. No long suffering for the animal (quick, clean kill)

3. Handle the animal/fish with respect and thank the Earth/Universe/Gods/whomever for the gift of food

4. Give back to the earth in some way (plant a tree, feed other fish, birds or animals, etc)

5. Accept (without reluctance) that there may be Karmic consequences for your actions.

If those cats of yours were feral cats, they would be operating within their own natural food chain. You, as their caretaker, must provide for them and yet are doing nothing they wouldn't do themselves if they could.

Thank you for all of your replies. The benefit of catching the fish myself is that I do only take what indeed and I know that there was no long suffering (ironically this is why I can't use live bait, when I first started fishing I tried using live bait but ended up releasing it as I could stand the thought of the suffering I would cause the worms by skewering it and leaving it on the hook drowning). I accept the Karmic consequences as a small price to pay for the benefit of my animals.

ThailandTom said:

@Fairyfeller if you do not eat any meat, what is the difference of you giving it to your cats or pets? You are still involved in the killing process.

The difference is that I consciously choose not to eat meat and can get the necessary nutrients elsewhere but my cats are naturally carnivores and I don't think I could persuade them to eat a plate of spinach. I can ensure that the meat is responsibly sourced, killed in a humane way and is nutritionally sound rather than full of additives and bulking agents like the commercial crispy cat foods.

fivebells

When Naropa found his teacher Tilopa, Tilopa was working as a fisherman. Of course, he was a tantric wizard who was "transferring the consciousness of each fish to a pure realm with a snap of his fingers." If you haven't yet learned to do that, the story might not be relevant.

FoibleFull

As long as you have not taken the Five Precepts Vows, you are not breaking your vows by fishing.
The teachings say that there will be some negative karma/imprints made in you by killing the fish .. but that it is far less than there would be if you were actually breaking your vows.

karasti

But if you aren't promising your vows to anyone but yourself, who "knows" that you break your vows, except you?

vinlyn

karasti said:

But if you aren't promising your vows to anyone but yourself, who "knows" that you break your vows, except you?

Hmmm. Interesting question.

ThailandTom

vinlyn said:

karasti said:

But if you aren't promising your vows to anyone but yourself, who "knows" that you break your vows, except you?

Hmmm. Interesting question.

You better watch out because Santa Claus is coming, toooo towwwwwn!