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It's impossible to judge or make an assumption of the position he is in as we are not in it. In my opinion, he took the middle road. Nothing more, nothing less.
I've never heard the Dalai Lama say anything about having authority over any school; in fact he refers pretty regularly to those who actually are the heads of the various schools, calling them such.
Then we need to explain his outlawing of a large section of the Kadampa ( and not just the NK ) including the eviction of large numbers of monks and nuns from their Gompas, His recognition of " tulkus" which is at odds with the leaders of the heads of the schools in which such " tulkus" have arisen..the most well kniwn being the Karma Kagyu..but there are many other examples..in cluding his recognition of tulkus within the Nyingmapa ..when it is well known that a large proportion of the Nyingma do not recognise his authority over them at all. In fact the |Gelug arose in reaction to the Nyingma., and preinvasion were constantly at virtual war. As I said earlier..we in the west project our own idealised DL and idealised Tibet in general.
It's impossible to judge or make an assumption of the position he is in as we are not in it. In my opinion, he took the middle road. Nothing more, nothing less.
I've never heard the Dalai Lama say anything about having authority over any school; in fact he refers pretty regularly to those who actually are the heads of the various schools, calling them such.
Then we need to explain his outlawing of a large section of the Kadampa ( and not just the NK ) including the eviction of large numbers of monks and nuns from their Gompas, His recognition of " tulkus" which is at odds with the leaders of the heads of the schools in which such " tulkus" have arisen..the most well kniwn being the Karma Kagyu..but there are many other examples..in cluding his recognition of tulkus within the Nyingmapa ..when it is well known that a large proportion of the Nyingma do not recognise his authority over them at all. In fact the |Gelug arose in reaction to the Nyingma., and preinvasion were constantly at virtual war. As I said earlier..we in the west project our own idealised DL and idealised Tibet in general.
This is fairly easily explainable in that the Dalai lama is a politician, Being a worldly leader does not mix well with one being an Ordained person in that they will be constantly making decisions that contradict their spiritual authority and like wise spiritual decisions that contradict their politics. His actions have created a Horrendous schism within the Gelug institution, a Schism within the Karma Kagyu and a cult of personality that makes it dangerous to contradict him for fear of his followers doing something rather un-Buddhist.
It's impossible to judge or make an assumption of the position he is in as we are not in it. In my opinion, he took the middle road. Nothing more, nothing less.
I've never heard the Dalai Lama say anything about having authority over any school; in fact he refers pretty regularly to those who actually are the heads of the various schools, calling them such.
Then we need to explain his outlawing of a large section of the Kadampa ( and not just the NK ) including the eviction of large numbers of monks and nuns from their Gompas, His recognition of " tulkus" which is at odds with the leaders of the heads of the schools in which such " tulkus" have arisen..the most well kniwn being the Karma Kagyu..but there are many other examples..in cluding his recognition of tulkus within the Nyingmapa ..when it is well known that a large proportion of the Nyingma do not recognise his authority over them at all. In fact the |Gelug arose in reaction to the Nyingma., and preinvasion were constantly at virtual war. As I said earlier..we in the west project our own idealised DL and idealised Tibet in general.
This is fairly easily explainable in that the Dalai lama is a politician, Being a worldly leader does not mix well with one being an Ordained person in that they will be constantly making decisions that contradict their spiritual authority and like wise spiritual decisions that contradict their politics. His actions have created a Horrendous schism within the Gelug institution, a Schism within the Karma Kagyu and a cult of personality that makes it dangerous to contradict him for fear of his followers doing something rather un-Buddhist.
being a Theravadan this is all news to me, and somewhat confusing. There are definitely these types of issues all over the world, including there was an issue with Ajahn Bhram being "excommunicated" for ordaining Bhikunnis, which to a lesser extent matches this Dalai Lama issue with there being this dependence and near worship of these "guru" figures. Monks should just be monks, with no power other then the power of dhamma, and people should look within themselves for their salvation.. but we know this is not how our deluded mind works does it.
It's impossible to judge or make an assumption of the position he is in as we are not in it. In my opinion, he took the middle road. Nothing more, nothing less.
I've never heard the Dalai Lama say anything about having authority over any school; in fact he refers pretty regularly to those who actually are the heads of the various schools, calling them such.
Then we need to explain his outlawing of a large section of the Kadampa ( and not just the NK ) including the eviction of large numbers of monks and nuns from their Gompas, His recognition of " tulkus" which is at odds with the leaders of the heads of the schools in which such " tulkus" have arisen..the most well kniwn being the Karma Kagyu..but there are many other examples..in cluding his recognition of tulkus within the Nyingmapa ..when it is well known that a large proportion of the Nyingma do not recognise his authority over them at all. In fact the |Gelug arose in reaction to the Nyingma., and preinvasion were constantly at virtual war. As I said earlier..we in the west project our own idealised DL and idealised Tibet in general.
This is fairly easily explainable in that the Dalai lama is a politician, Being a worldly leader does not mix well with one being an Ordained person in that they will be constantly making decisions that contradict their spiritual authority and like wise spiritual decisions that contradict their politics. His actions have created a Horrendous schism within the Gelug institution, a Schism within the Karma Kagyu and a cult of personality that makes it dangerous to contradict him for fear of his followers doing something rather un-Buddhist.
This of of course not what western admirers of the DL want to hear..they see the terrible atrocities commited upon the Tibeatn people and project a sanitised and idealised picture onto what is in fact a very complex sereis of issues.
It's impossible to judge or make an assumption of the position he is in as we are not in it. In my opinion, he took the middle road. Nothing more, nothing less.
I've never heard the Dalai Lama say anything about having authority over any school; in fact he refers pretty regularly to those who actually are the heads of the various schools, calling them such.
Then we need to explain his outlawing of a large section of the Kadampa ( and not just the NK ) including the eviction of large numbers of monks and nuns from their Gompas, His recognition of " tulkus" which is at odds with the leaders of the heads of the schools in which such " tulkus" have arisen..the most well kniwn being the Karma Kagyu..but there are many other examples..in cluding his recognition of tulkus within the Nyingmapa ..when it is well known that a large proportion of the Nyingma do not recognise his authority over them at all. In fact the |Gelug arose in reaction to the Nyingma., and preinvasion were constantly at virtual war. As I said earlier..we in the west project our own idealised DL and idealised Tibet in general.
This is fairly easily explainable in that the Dalai lama is a politician, Being a worldly leader does not mix well with one being an Ordained person in that they will be constantly making decisions that contradict their spiritual authority and like wise spiritual decisions that contradict their politics. His actions have created a Horrendous schism within the Gelug institution, a Schism within the Karma Kagyu and a cult of personality that makes it dangerous to contradict him for fear of his followers doing something rather un-Buddhist.
being a Theravadan this is all news to me, and somewhat confusing. There are definitely these types of issues all over the world, including there was an issue with Ajahn Bhram being "excommunicated" for ordaining Bhikunnis, which to a lesser extent matches this Dalai Lama issue with there being this dependence and near worship of these "guru" figures. Monks should just be monks, with no power other then the power of dhamma, and people should look within themselves for their salvation.. but we know this is not how our deluded mind works does it.
If you do not have a good understanding of Vajrayana then the issue will be obscure but as a person who practices in a Tradition that encompasses Vajrayana a person who acts as a Guru must have certain qualities and act in a pure way the Dalai lama has not acted in a pure spiritual manner but has mixed his spiritual position with worldly interests and has thus made his spiritual position weak in the eyes of those who would look at the qualities of a spiritual guide before accepting him as one.
Spiritual teachers should act in a pure way but Vajrayana teachers should do even more so to make sure their conduct is pure otherwise they undermine their position as someone worth taking as a spiritual guide.
Ajahn Bhram I believe was acting in the Spirit of the law rather then the letter and I commend his action as a step toward greater equality.
Now, the Karmapa (Thaye Dorje) has come out and openly condemns self-immolation, why hasn't the Dalai Lama and CTA?
Lalita Panicker, Hindustan Times New Delhi, December 11, 2012
Self-immolation for the cause of Tibet has claimed 28 lives in November alone. The total number of deaths since this trend began is 90. But not all Tibetan spiritual leaders agree with this method of protest. In a nation-wide exclusive interview with the Hindustan Times, His Holiness the 17th Karmapa Trinley Thaye Dorje, head of the Karma Kagya lineage of Tibetan Buddhism said the escalating number of self-immolations was a cause of great concern to him.
“This is definitely not a practice of Buddhism. I strongly wish this would soon stop. The practice of Buddhist dharma is our greatest inheritance as Tibetans. This enjoins upon us to preserve the human existence. It is through this ... that we are able to achieve liberation.”
He said the Buddha himself had said that we must sustain this body and have a clear conscience. Self-immolation not only harms oneself but also creates confusion in the minds of others. “The human existence is like a temple. We have to look at non-violent methods... One needs to calm one’s mind, when there are negative emotions, the mind becomes heated leading to violent actions.”
Karmapa said he has very little knowledge or interest in politics be it that of India or China and feels that true devotion to Buddhist practices with its compassion and wisdom will show everyone a way out of their dilemmas.
When asked if he feels a sense of regret that the Dalai Lama does not recognise him as a reincarnation of the Karmapa Lama — he supports Ugyen Trinley Dorje who lives in Dharamshala — he said he had immense respect for the Dalai Lama’s scholarship of Buddhism.
When asked whether there was a conflict of interest between him and the other Karmapa, he said there were some issues, but said that his primary concern today was the practice of self-immolation and this is what he was most concerned about.
You can read the interview below:
There have been 90 self-immolations so far by Tibets protesting for the cause of freeing Tibet from Chinese rule. In November alone, there were 28 deaths. What is your view on this? As a Tibetan born in Tibet, this escalation in self-immolations is a cause of concern for me. We Tibetans are known for our spirituality, for our practice of compassion and wisdom, our practice of Buddhist dharma. This is our greatest inheritance. I am shocked that Tibetans are taking such actions. I strongly feel this should stop, this is definitely not a practice of Buddhism.
Why do you think more and more people are taking to this method of protest? I would say that we take these drastic measures when our mind if heated by emotions. We lose touch with our spiritual inheritance. We need to calm the mind so that we can tackle these situations.
What form of protest do you advocate? Again, I have to speak from a spiritual perspective. We need to fall back on our spiritual practices. When we feel unclear and confused we must try to apply our spirituality to this and try and work out meaningful ways.
How can you draw attention to the cause this way? When the mind is clear, when the tools we apply are transparent, we can achieve what we want. We need to fall back on our Tibetan way of life to bring clarity and happiness. If we can do, this we can achieve anything we want.
Does it bother you that the Dalai Lama does not recognise you as an authentic incarnation? As a Tibetan born in Tibet, I have the highest respect for the Dalai Lama. He is a learned scholar of Buddhist philosophy, he is a learned scholar in general.
Why are you so vehement about how wrong self-immolations are? In the experience of Buddhist dharma, we are taught to preserve the human existence. Through this existence, we are able to achieve wondrous things, achieve liberation. The Buddha himself said that we must sustain this body and maintain a clear conscience. Self-immolations not only harm oneself but also create confusion in the minds of others. We need to remind ourselves where we come from. We need to remember our philosophy. Non-violence cannot evolve from such drastic methods. The human existence is like a temple, as long as we remain in human existence, we must develop this physical being.
"Karmapa Gyalwa Karmapa Trinley Thaye Dorje during an interview with Hindustan Times. (HT Photo/Jasjeet Plaha) The Tibetan prime minister in exile has also while not endorsing self-immolation said that it is the sacred duty of every Tibetan to support self-immolations for the cause. What do you feel about this? I am sure he has every right intention. But my life is one of spirituality. Tibetans are known for their spirituality and compassion howsoever mundane these may be, howsoever limited. Because of our following Buddhism, we have come this far in understanding and peace. At the moment, the general awareness of self-immolations is very strong. My voice might be just one raised against this. As a fellow Tibetan, it is my duty to offer my thoughts and perspective on this.
You have been in India for a long time, what has been your experience? I have enjoyed wonderful hospitality here. I have the freedom to practice my spirituality which is for me the greatest freedom.
Do you think the new dispensation in China will change things for the better in Tibet or not? I have very little knowledge or interest in politics. I am a spiritual practitioner.
People treat you as a living god, how do you deal with this? Life itself is impermanent, one may experience different ways of life. I try to follow my practice to the best of my ability, but yes, it is very challenging. When the mind gets heated, it is best to apply spiritual practices.
Has there been a conflict of interest between you and the other Karmapa? There have been issues, but my primary concern at the moment is self-immolation. I cannot picture any life besides spirituality.
You were only one and half years old when you declared that you were the Karmapa. Do you have any recollections of that time? I have recollections, yes. It is a part of our spirituality. We have memories of rebirths, reincarnations. Through meditation, one can recall past lives. Unfortunately, we are sometimes too busy to meditate and remember past lives.
Do you ever have doubts about your mission, yourself? Yes, there are doubts, anxieties, fears, it is all part of this world. We cannot give in to doubt, if we do then we may take drastic steps. It is important to focus as much as possible on the positive to balance oneself.
Is Buddhism according to you a religion or a philosophy? There are many different perspectives. There is a ritualistic aspect to Buddhism. But it is also a way of life. We need to bring about an understanding of the meaning of one’s life, what benefit one can bring about. We need to simplify things, focus on what is important. We must know our priorities, we must help others and keep our mind and body away from disturbing actions and emotions.
"I am shocked that Tibetans are taking such actions. I strongly feel this (self-immolations) should stop, this is definitely not a practice of Buddhism," said Karmapa Gyalwa Karmapa Trinley Thaye Dorje in an interview to Hindustan Times. (HT Photo/Jasjeet Plaha) You have spoken about the three poisons, greed, ignorance and anger. How do you overcome these? Through spirituality. Through meditation. One sees things clearer this way. Like still water, without ripples, without bubbles. We need to be calm to analyse things. It is important to understand ethics. We need to apply this when it comes to issues like self-immolation.
Does the belief in reincarnation reduce the fear of death? This is a temporary solution. We have to reach a state of consciousness where we know no fear. We should have no fear whether or not there is a rebirth. If it helps to believe in rebirth to reduce fear, it is fine. We have to believe however that we will reach that state of no fear at all.
What is your message today to the Chinese, Indians, Tibetans? We have to have kind thoughts and positive actions. We have to continue on the path of virtue.
Do you think Tibet will ever be free? It depends on how we apply our spiritual inheritance, we need to adopt kind means, not drastic means.
What do you do in your spare time? I don’t have much spare time. But I try to keep up with entertainment and the news so I can connect better with my fellow spiritual practitioners.
I have no idea who "His Holiness the 17th Karmapa Trinley Thaye Dorje, head of the Karma Kagya lineage of Tibetan Buddhism" or what that means position wise, but I see insight in his words when he speaks of the immolations and having a kind attitude towards the world.
my question regarding Tibet is.. does it NEED to be free? I can understand lay people being political about it, but even still are we not trying to lessen our attachments, does it not really matter where we are? Even more so should monastics take such actions because of it?
Now some may say, it's not specifically because of just Tibet, but because of what the "evil Chinese" are doing there. My answer to this is the same answer to people who believe the American government is right to go into places like Iraq to "stop the dictator and bring freedom"... so what about the other 100 dictators on the planet? There is suffering and injustice world wide, always has been, we cannot change this... we can only change ourselves.
I often think of this.. if my country America was invaded.. would I take up arms and fight the invaders.. someone who follows the five precepts and is against harming? am I really so attached to my country that I could not live somewhere else? I think it's good to question these conventions.
@Jayantha people have way too much emotion invested in this to have that sort of conversation. China and everything it does is now evil. The Tibetan culture and government in exile is sacred. Once you see the world as good versus evil, all that's left is conflict and rooting for your home team.
@Jayantha people have way too much emotion invested in this to have that sort of conversation. China and everything it does is now evil. The Tibetan culture and government in exile is sacred. Once you see the world as good versus evil, all that's left is conflict and rooting for your home team.
The only fix for this is insight through meditation practice, you'll never force someone to try to think without clouded emotions and the like. If you begin to know impermanence, you know that all things arise and pass away.. even countries.. even the universe itself, which will one day go dark as every star dies.
It seems to me that much of what is being done to the Tibetans by the Chinese is similar to what happened to the Am. Indians by the Europeans/Americans. The complete removal of their culture in favor of submitting to the majority. Does Tibet need to be freed? Not necessarily, and the HHDL has said they seek not independence but the ability to live as they desire. China claims they are giving Tibet those rights, while at the same time randomly arresting and jailing for many years monks and nuns and others simply for practicing Buddhism. Right now they cannot freely practice their religion even, something most westerners take greatly for granted. Would I say that's worth dying over? I can't say, I've never been in that position. But plenty of American Indians did as well, just not in the same manner.
Comments
recognise his authority over them at all.
In fact the |Gelug arose in reaction to the Nyingma., and preinvasion were constantly at virtual war.
As I said earlier..we in the west project our own idealised DL and idealised Tibet in general.
Spiritual teachers should act in a pure way but Vajrayana teachers should do even more so to make sure their conduct is pure otherwise they undermine their position as someone worth taking as a spiritual guide.
Ajahn Bhram I believe was acting in the Spirit of the law rather then the letter and I commend his action as a step toward greater equality.
Lalita Panicker, Hindustan Times
New Delhi, December 11, 2012
Self-immolation for the cause of Tibet has claimed 28 lives in November alone. The total number of deaths since this trend began is 90. But not all Tibetan spiritual leaders agree with this method of protest. In a nation-wide exclusive interview with the Hindustan Times, His Holiness the 17th Karmapa Trinley Thaye Dorje, head of the Karma Kagya lineage of Tibetan Buddhism said the escalating number of self-immolations was a cause of great concern to him.
“This is definitely not a practice of Buddhism. I strongly wish this would soon stop. The practice of Buddhist dharma is our greatest inheritance as Tibetans. This enjoins upon us to preserve the human existence. It is through this ... that we are able to achieve liberation.”
He said the Buddha himself had said that we must sustain this body and have a clear conscience. Self-immolation not only harms oneself but also creates confusion in the minds of others. “The human existence is like a temple. We have to look at non-violent methods... One needs to calm one’s mind, when there are negative emotions, the mind becomes heated leading to violent actions.”
Karmapa said he has very little knowledge or interest in politics be it that of India or China and feels that true devotion to Buddhist practices with its compassion and wisdom will show everyone a way out of their dilemmas.
When asked if he feels a sense of regret that the Dalai Lama does not recognise him as a reincarnation of the Karmapa Lama — he supports Ugyen Trinley Dorje who lives in Dharamshala — he said he had immense respect for the Dalai Lama’s scholarship of Buddhism.
When asked whether there was a conflict of interest between him and the other Karmapa, he said there were some issues, but said that his primary concern today was the practice of self-immolation and this is what he was most concerned about.
You can read the interview below:
There have been 90 self-immolations so far by Tibets protesting for the cause of freeing Tibet from Chinese rule. In November alone, there were 28 deaths. What is your view on this?
As a Tibetan born in Tibet, this escalation in self-immolations is a cause of concern for me. We Tibetans are known for our spirituality, for our practice of compassion and wisdom, our practice of Buddhist dharma. This is our greatest inheritance. I am shocked that Tibetans are taking such actions. I strongly feel this should stop, this is definitely not a practice of Buddhism.
Why do you think more and more people are taking to this method of protest?
I would say that we take these drastic measures when our mind if heated by emotions. We lose touch with our spiritual inheritance. We need to calm the mind so that we can tackle these situations.
What form of protest do you advocate?
Again, I have to speak from a spiritual perspective. We need to fall back on our spiritual practices. When we feel unclear and confused we must try to apply our spirituality to this and try and work out meaningful ways.
How can you draw attention to the cause this way?
When the mind is clear, when the tools we apply are transparent, we can achieve what we want. We need to fall back on our Tibetan way of life to bring clarity and happiness. If we can do, this we can achieve anything we want.
Does it bother you that the Dalai Lama does not recognise you as an authentic incarnation?
As a Tibetan born in Tibet, I have the highest respect for the Dalai Lama. He is a learned scholar of Buddhist philosophy, he is a learned scholar in general.
Why are you so vehement about how wrong self-immolations are?
In the experience of Buddhist dharma, we are taught to preserve the human existence. Through this existence, we are able to achieve wondrous things, achieve liberation. The Buddha himself said that we must sustain this body and maintain a clear conscience. Self-immolations not only harm oneself but also create confusion in the minds of others. We need to remind ourselves where we come from. We need to remember our philosophy. Non-violence cannot evolve from such drastic methods. The human existence is like a temple, as long as we remain in human existence, we must develop this physical being.
"Karmapa Gyalwa Karmapa Trinley Thaye Dorje during an interview with Hindustan Times. (HT Photo/Jasjeet Plaha)
The Tibetan prime minister in exile has also while not endorsing self-immolation said that it is the sacred duty of every Tibetan to support self-immolations for the cause. What do you feel about this?
I am sure he has every right intention. But my life is one of spirituality. Tibetans are known for their spirituality and compassion howsoever mundane these may be, howsoever limited. Because of our following Buddhism, we have come this far in understanding and peace. At the moment, the general awareness of self-immolations is very strong. My voice might be just one raised against this. As a fellow Tibetan, it is my duty to offer my thoughts and perspective on this.
You have been in India for a long time, what has been your experience?
I have enjoyed wonderful hospitality here. I have the freedom to practice my spirituality which is for me the greatest freedom.
Do you think the new dispensation in China will change things for the better in Tibet or not?
I have very little knowledge or interest in politics. I am a spiritual practitioner.
People treat you as a living god, how do you deal with this?
Life itself is impermanent, one may experience different ways of life. I try to follow my practice to the best of my ability, but yes, it is very challenging. When the mind gets heated, it is best to apply spiritual practices.
Has there been a conflict of interest between you and the other Karmapa?
There have been issues, but my primary concern at the moment is self-immolation. I cannot picture any life besides spirituality.
You were only one and half years old when you declared that you were the Karmapa. Do you have any recollections of that time?
I have recollections, yes. It is a part of our spirituality. We have memories of rebirths, reincarnations. Through meditation, one can recall past lives. Unfortunately, we are sometimes too busy to meditate and remember past lives.
Do you ever have doubts about your mission, yourself?
Yes, there are doubts, anxieties, fears, it is all part of this world. We cannot give in to doubt, if we do then we may take drastic steps. It is important to focus as much as possible on the positive to balance oneself.
Is Buddhism according to you a religion or a philosophy?
There are many different perspectives. There is a ritualistic aspect to Buddhism. But it is also a way of life. We need to bring about an understanding of the meaning of one’s life, what benefit one can bring about. We need to simplify things, focus on what is important. We must know our priorities, we must help others and keep our mind and body away from disturbing actions and emotions.
"I am shocked that Tibetans are taking such actions. I strongly feel this (self-immolations) should stop, this is definitely not a practice of Buddhism," said Karmapa Gyalwa Karmapa Trinley Thaye Dorje in an interview to Hindustan Times. (HT Photo/Jasjeet Plaha)
You have spoken about the three poisons, greed, ignorance and anger. How do you overcome these?
Through spirituality. Through meditation. One sees things clearer this way. Like still water, without ripples, without bubbles. We need to be calm to analyse things. It is important to understand ethics. We need to apply this when it comes to issues like self-immolation.
Does the belief in reincarnation reduce the fear of death?
This is a temporary solution. We have to reach a state of consciousness where we know no fear. We should have no fear whether or not there is a rebirth. If it helps to believe in rebirth to reduce fear, it is fine. We have to believe however that we will reach that state of no fear at all.
What is your message today to the Chinese, Indians, Tibetans?
We have to have kind thoughts and positive actions. We have to continue on the path of virtue.
Do you think Tibet will ever be free?
It depends on how we apply our spiritual inheritance, we need to adopt kind means, not drastic means.
What do you do in your spare time?
I don’t have much spare time. But I try to keep up with entertainment and the news so I can connect better with my fellow spiritual practitioners.
my question regarding Tibet is.. does it NEED to be free? I can understand lay people being political about it, but even still are we not trying to lessen our attachments, does it not really matter where we are? Even more so should monastics take such actions because of it?
Now some may say, it's not specifically because of just Tibet, but because of what the "evil Chinese" are doing there. My answer to this is the same answer to people who believe the American government is right to go into places like Iraq to "stop the dictator and bring freedom"... so what about the other 100 dictators on the planet? There is suffering and injustice world wide, always has been, we cannot change this... we can only change ourselves.
I often think of this.. if my country America was invaded.. would I take up arms and fight the invaders.. someone who follows the five precepts and is against harming? am I really so attached to my country that I could not live somewhere else? I think it's good to question these conventions.