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Giving up Buddhism ...

musicmusic
in Buddhism Basics
Let us say a guy has extreme hatred - almost to the point of revenge - for those who have wronged him. Try as he may, he can't suppress his feelings. Day in and day out, he curses them, wishes them ill. In short, his anger knows no limits. The Buddha would be against such behavior. Must the guy give up Buddhism, assuming he isn't ready for it this birth? More importantly, what's the fate of such a guy? I know this question will apply only to those who believe in rebirth, but I am still wondering.

Comments

  • BhikkhuJayasaraBhikkhuJayasara Bhikkhu Veteran
    edited December 2012
    the fate of such a guy is to be mired in hatred for the rest of his life, totally unaware of where it comes from and how best to deal with it... a sad existance really.. what happens after death, who knows.... I'd be worried about living life like that first.
    mithrilseeker242NiwalenRainbowTara
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    Well he wouldn't be a solid monolith of hate. There would be other things mixed in. If he could just like a few lines of poetry that would be something other than hate. And then if he hooks up with people in the dharma then he gets exposed to the true path.

    The Jewel Ornament of Liberation says that a being if he can imagine giving Buddha a flower then that person can become enlightened. Might take awhile though!
    andyrobyn
  • howhow Veteran Veteran
    edited December 2012

    Why would he have to give up on the medicine for his illness. Even if he was not able to cure his illness but only lessened the symptoms, would it not be better than taking no medicine at all. The fate of this guy is to reap the consequences of his actions.
    Those who believe in rebirth will say that the various karmic streams that came together to form his birth will disperse upon his death to form parts of new beings.
    This guy has no more fate to deal with after death than any of us.
    Cole_black_teaJohnG
  • Cole_Cole_
    Before giving up I'd tell him that I have been there, and that it is possible to let go. No matter how much he may think otherwise, if I can do it, so can he. No one can truly know the fate of such an individual, but according to Buddhist beliefs, the fate ranges from rebirth as a human, to rebirth as a bug, to rebirth as a hungry ghost who refuses to let go, wandering endlessly in his grief, to rebirth in a hellish realm.

    I'd tell him that I don't know who he is, but I care about him, and I believe he can change. It's never too late. He would likely reject it because it wouldn't make sense, and I would not be bothered by it nor would it change my views. "Jesus loves you" they say, well so do I, and for now, I am still around to listen to anything he wishes to say, and try to help in any way I can. My life's mission is to relinquish any suffering I possibly can from this world. I can't make promises that I can make anything better, but I am willing to try. Just as I've done for the past 5 years.

    I care about each and every one of you, never forget that.
  • lobsterlobster Crusty Veteran
    In short, his anger knows no limits
    Excellent.
    Such a person has unlimited resources for transformation and practice. Pity the 'fluffy bunny Buddhists', with nothing but a weak suffering as a basis . . .
    http://www.berzinarchives.com/web/en/archives/sutra/level3_lojong_material/general/working_emotions_deal_with_anger.html?query=anger
    how
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    music said:

    Let us say a guy has extreme hatred - almost to the point of revenge - for those who have wronged him. Try as he may, he can't suppress his feelings. Day in and day out, he curses them, wishes them ill. In short, his anger knows no limits. The Buddha would be against such behavior. Must the guy give up Buddhism, assuming he isn't ready for it this birth? More importantly, what's the fate of such a guy? I know this question will apply only to those who believe in rebirth, but I am still wondering.

    Ever heard of Angulimala...?
  • CittaCitta Veteran
    Believe me I am not being pedantic when I say that giving up Buddhism may not be possible if Buddhadharma is true.
    Because if it IS true then then Buddhadharma describes the way things are...its not another belief system.
    So at best we can simply turn away from reality..which is the condition of all of us who are unenlightened anyway..which at the level of conventional reality describes everyone on this forum...
    robotBhanteLucky
  • CittaCitta Veteran
    edited December 2012
    lobster said:

    In short, his anger knows no limits
    Excellent.
    Such a person has unlimited resources for transformation and practice. Pity the 'fluffy bunny Buddhists', with nothing but a weak suffering as a basis . . .
    http://www.berzinarchives.com/web/en/archives/sutra/level3_lojong_material/general/working_emotions_deal_with_anger.html?query=anger
    " Fluffy bunny Buddhists " with nothing but " weak " suffering as a basis are also perfect manifestations of Avalokiteshvara's shining diamond- like, Universe. Complete just as they are, arising from and dissolving into, Great Nature.
  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran
    music said:

    Let us say a guy has extreme hatred - almost to the point of revenge - for those who have wronged him.

    Metta practice is the anti-dote.
    seeker242Niwalen
  • BhanteLuckyBhanteLucky Alternative lifestyle person in the South Island of New Zealand New Zealand Veteran
    music said:

    Let us say a guy has extreme hatred - almost to the point of revenge - for those who have wronged him. Try as he may, he can't suppress his feelings. Day in and day out, he curses them, wishes them ill. In short, his anger knows no limits. The Buddha would be against such behavior. Must the guy give up Buddhism, assuming he isn't ready for it this birth? More importantly, what's the fate of such a guy? I know this question will apply only to those who believe in rebirth, but I am still wondering.

    Are you talking about yourself?

    I thought you hated Buddhism anyway? From all the topics you've been starting this past month or two.
  • CinorjerCinorjer Veteran
    If you've killed or attacked people in the past, then you can vow to not do so again and take responsibility for what you've done before. If you've never acted on the hate but cannot control your thoughts and emotions, then you can vow to continue not to harm others with your failure. If you can't conquer your emotions and thoughts, you can at least control your actions.

    A healthy mind strives for balance. Anger has limits, no matter what you might believe. The body itself cannot sustain the effects of anger forever. Perhaps you're talking about people who enjoy the rush of violence and sadistic thrill of hurting people so look for excuses to become angry? It's all the same. If that's what floats your boat, you won't be interested in a practice that tells you this is wrong, anyway.

  • jessie70jessie70
    edited December 2012
    There are certain types of " limitless anger" that may need to be addressed by a mental health care professional. Not always a popular thing to say on this site, but I believe, very important. Before you do anything, or give up on anything- from Buddhism to the belief on the existence of limits to your own anger- or grounds for your love and rehabilitation- please get solid, professional help. Buddhism is a belief system... It can help people with suffering, but it is not he only way to feel better and deal with demons.
  • genkakugenkaku Northampton, Mass. U.S.A. Veteran
    music said:

    Let us say a guy has extreme hatred - almost to the point of revenge - for those who have wronged him. Try as he may, he can't suppress his feelings. Day in and day out, he curses them, wishes them ill. In short, his anger knows no limits. The Buddha would be against such behavior. Must the guy give up Buddhism, assuming he isn't ready for it this birth? More importantly, what's the fate of such a guy? I know this question will apply only to those who believe in rebirth, but I am still wondering.

    This (wink-wink, nod-nod) guy has all the trappings of a good Buddhist because, d'oh, he is simply human. Hatred, like what is called love, only reaches so far and when it gets tiresome or painful enough, the question may arise, "now what?"

    When being "good" doesn't work and being "bad" doesn't work, what works? What is it that can provide the peace all those "good" and "bad" people are after? Maybe it's something called "Buddhism." Maybe not. But my guess is that in order to solve the riddle, some attention will be required.

    Buddhism is all about attention but you don't have to be a Buddhist to pay attention.

    Pay attention ... and see what actually happens.
    Jeffrey
  • RebeccaSRebeccaS Veteran
    music said:

    Let us say a guy has extreme hatred - almost to the point of revenge - for those who have wronged him. Try as he may, he can't suppress his feelings. Day in and day out, he curses them, wishes them ill. In short, his anger knows no limits. The Buddha would be against such behavior. Must the guy give up Buddhism, assuming he isn't ready for it this birth? More importantly, what's the fate of such a guy? I know this question will apply only to those who believe in rebirth, but I am still wondering.

    It seems like it would be the perfect time to start practicing rather than running away :lol:

    Nobody gets into religion because they're perfect. We do it because we're not.
  • taiyakitaiyaki Veteran
    Say that person observes the actual hatred in its manifestation rather than say the object of hatred. Say he or she examines this appearance in the body. Say he or she looks for the core, yet cannot find a core, a center. But the hatred is consuming the body and is felt viscerally. Say the person realizes its just empty energy and is liberated.

    The impure hatred is seen in its pure form.

    Most of Buddhism will negate hatred and aggression. And sure we should negate it. We should negate not relating to it. Not relating to it by repressing it and acting out from it.

    But when we allow it to express itself in our body, all these kleshas tell a different story, other than the story we give it.

    This is something any practitioner will arrive at.

    Unless they are heavy conditioned by their belief structures.
    Jeffrey
  • driedleafdriedleaf Veteran
    edited December 2012
    Before giving up on Buddhism, realize that letting hate and anger get the best of us is really giving up on ourselves. Uncontrolled aversion or any other defilement will often lead to unwholesome actions. These actions will start the endless cycle of karma. To handle aversion properly one needs to have equanimity and mindfulness. This is why we practice.
  • DavidDavid A human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First Nations Veteran
    A person completely filled with hate likely wouldn't bother with the Buddha in the first place. Something must have drawn them to the dharma.
  • footiamfootiam Veteran
    music said:

    Let us say a guy has extreme hatred - almost to the point of revenge - for those who have wronged him. Try as he may, he can't suppress his feelings. Day in and day out, he curses them, wishes them ill. In short, his anger knows no limits. The Buddha would be against such behavior. Must the guy give up Buddhism, assuming he isn't ready for it this birth? More importantly, what's the fate of such a guy? I know this question will apply only to those who believe in rebirth, but I am still wondering.

    People can give up Buddhism but he must not stop being a human. Extreme hatred to the point of revenge is not the trait of a human.
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