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I'm a Mormon!
JosephW
Veteran
You know, I am very familiar with the religious, I am probably even more so familiar with some religions in depth that most others wouldn't, such as Mormonism as I have read the Book of Mormon and am familiar with The Doctrine and Covenants as well as the Pearl of Great Price, so when the Mormon missionaries came knocking on my door the other day, they were in for a, respectful, surprise in knowledge of their religion. I actually sat down with them and gave them the time of day as they were so nice and not pushy, 2 hours time of day actually. I am not going to go in depth of the whole meeting but I asked them roughly 25 really relevant questions regarding the Mormon faith, just so I could get a Mormon defense, none of them were answered, they would say things such as "there are just some things we don't know" or "you just have to keep the faith of Jesus Christ in your heart" or "Pray to God for him to tell you such and such is true or not and he will let you know", I was getting tired of those answers, but remained calm and respectful...
The last question I ask them was a good question, it was about an article I found and then followed up on it and watched a documentary about it, it was about how they claim that the Native Americans were ultimately a lost tribe of Israel, descending from the Laminites and Nephites that came here (North America) on a boat. However, I learned in school that if anything the Native Americans resembled East Asians in many ways, as far as technology, linguistically, and most of all DNA. I learned that the ancestors of the Native Americans were the East Asians, they crossed the Bering Strait many many generations ago. So I asked them, do you believe in DNA research? They say "Of course, but not over God." My heart just drops at their response, then with silence the missionary goes on to say "God may not have wanted anyone to know so he may have changed the DNA of the Nephites and the Laminites." That's when my heart was already dropped, so my jaw dropped. I started to feel so sorry for these such nice people, I felt so sorry for how deceived they are, this is a different level of deception, this is a level of deception where you are 18-24 years old and you decide to go on a mission to some random place at your own expense with another Mormon and preach something to strangers because you know it to be true, they speak with such confidence and big smile, and I admire that so greatly, but man are they deceived, I am a 21 year old guy and my eyes were watering for these people, these are a group of people, for the most part, that if you prove to them that their religion is false, they simply do not care, they go on their merry way. Just wanted to know if anyone else has had a similar experience with the LDS, so I thought I would share.
The last question I ask them was a good question, it was about an article I found and then followed up on it and watched a documentary about it, it was about how they claim that the Native Americans were ultimately a lost tribe of Israel, descending from the Laminites and Nephites that came here (North America) on a boat. However, I learned in school that if anything the Native Americans resembled East Asians in many ways, as far as technology, linguistically, and most of all DNA. I learned that the ancestors of the Native Americans were the East Asians, they crossed the Bering Strait many many generations ago. So I asked them, do you believe in DNA research? They say "Of course, but not over God." My heart just drops at their response, then with silence the missionary goes on to say "God may not have wanted anyone to know so he may have changed the DNA of the Nephites and the Laminites." That's when my heart was already dropped, so my jaw dropped. I started to feel so sorry for these such nice people, I felt so sorry for how deceived they are, this is a different level of deception, this is a level of deception where you are 18-24 years old and you decide to go on a mission to some random place at your own expense with another Mormon and preach something to strangers because you know it to be true, they speak with such confidence and big smile, and I admire that so greatly, but man are they deceived, I am a 21 year old guy and my eyes were watering for these people, these are a group of people, for the most part, that if you prove to them that their religion is false, they simply do not care, they go on their merry way. Just wanted to know if anyone else has had a similar experience with the LDS, so I thought I would share.
4
Comments
Belief in a supreme creator god is a wrong view and henceforth this wrong view is an obscuring Ignorance which when played out to its conclusion results in Thoughts, Speech and Deeds committed out of Ignorance which inevitably lead to more Samsaric suffering.
First they try to justify the creator, Then they write ridiculous stories based on a falsity, Then there are those who believe these stories without checking. Such conditions help exacerbate existing delusions within the mind rather then remove them as a consequence immense suffering will arise.
http://www.budsas.org/ebud/whatbudbeliev/34.htm
But that's what attracts me to Buddhism; it cuts out the bullpoo; it explains what the problem is and gives a solution to it, rather than go and paint some fantastical mystical stories (which to be fair, you can also find in Buddhism too).
If the creator really existed he would leave a logical trail for people to follow?
What, no throwing away of older models allowed? No winding trails or crevices or dead ends such as those we encounter in real life?
I must say that in all my years I have yet to find any path with true logical consistency. We human beings are creatures of habit and of emotion and tend to reserve the constraints of logical rigor for the other guy.
And you're right, when you bring up questions like where is the evidence that Jesus was in North America or for that tribe of Indians they always talk about...they just brush over that.
But, I've meet many very good people who are Mormon, and so while I don't believe in many of their beliefs (nor their attitude toward Blacks and gays), there are some good underlying principles there, as well.
A certain quality was identified in these individuals despite their tradition. It reminds of a PBS documentary I saw of the these Evangelical Christians “spreading the Word” in Tibet. The were amazed that these people could be so nice and kind despite never hearing the name of Jesus Christ or the Gospel. I just thought to myself, No Duh!
In some Christian religious traditions to associate the term “exists” with God is way off the mark. Your interpretation and concept is not a complete view or representative of all traditions.
Are they delusional? Maybe. Maybe not. That doesn't matter. What matters is that they are, hopefully, good and compassionate people. Beyond that, everything else is semantics. If they don't hurt anyone else...then who cares? Keep in mind that YOUR views could be every bit as deceived and irrational. Wow. This just stuns me.
How can you be so judgmental of other peoples beliefs? Aren't a couple of the tenets of Buddhism that no one religion is superior to another and to not judge others, but instead show compassion?
As far as we know, there could be a creator; and I find myself believing in one more as time passes. Buddhism does NOT have all of the answers. However, I do believe it has the ability to make us better people and strengthen our other beliefs (if we have them) as well as our connection to the world around us. Conversely, no God based religion has all of the answers either, but it has the ability for some to make them better people.
Tell me, what is wrong about that?
Eddie Izzard
Your mission is to wake up and know. This message will 'self destruct' in 5 seconds . . .
:wave:
I will diffuse the bomb with exactly .001 of a second just like in A-team.
1.How can you be so judgemental of other peoples beliefs?
Fairly easily, Buddha Dharma teaches you to enquire into beliefs and examine them to see if they are fit for purpose, If what I have said shocks you I would recommend expanding your knowledge of Buddhism a bit more to include some of the debates on theology between Buddhists and Monotheists to see many such examples of some of the logic used there to Iron out wrong views...Eg. Dignaga, Dharmakirti, Vasubandhu, Shantideva.
I don't know why anyone should wish to not employ judgement upon the validity of various religious beliefs if not I would think societies would have moved little past the age where women where viewed as property and the heresy of questioning religion was punishable by actions we would now consider to be barbaric.
2. Aren't a couple of the tenets of Buddhism that no one religion is superior to another...
Lets make use of logic for this one. Which is the belief that is of more value ? The one that advocates death for apostacy ? Or the one that doesn't ? The one that preaches violence towards those who disbelieve or the one that asks you to enquire and test ?
3.and to not judge others, but instead show compassion?
Having a Judgemental attitude toward your kind mothers is a very Samsaric attitude something which is to be abandoned it is distinctly unwise to confuse this with being unable to discriminate against incorrect views.
4. As far as we know, there could be a creator; and I find myself believing in one more as time passes Buddhism does NOT have all of the answers.
Are you fairly new to Buddhism ? The idea of a creator deity is very much rebutted in the Sutra's and various composures of Buddhist scholars throughout the ages, If you wish to believe things that are contrary to the nature of reality you are more then welcome again perhaps it might be time to have a look at some of the above mentioned scholars or even some of the Sutra's with regards to the nature of reality and "Creation". Buddha claimed to have the answer for ending Samsaric suffering the creator just happened to be disproved along the way.
5.Conversely, no God based religion has all of the answers either, but it has the ability for some to make them better people.
The only answer God based religions have is that people must worship God as a solution to what ever it is that troubles them, Its rather like those people who equate morality only coming from God as it makes them better people, Indeed they may change for the better which I rejoice in but the basis of their belief that morality comes from God is incorrect, What is correct to say however is that their "Belief" In God and their prescription to his book/s is the basis of it rather then a mysterious outside force having anything to do with the internal workings of their own mind. For example slavery is proscribed in many religious texts but the morality of people today would make one cringe at the very thought.
6.Tell me, what is wrong about that?
The Big wrong view (Creator being) that exacerbates Ignorance within the mind which is the primary problem, Virtuous behaviour on the other hand is certainly something to rejoice in.
Your generalist approach is really rooted in your exclusivist views and assumptions. Not sure about others, but in general, that is the issue I have with your comments about other traditions.
Buddhism is filled with stories that others might consider ridiculous. You have claimed to accept many of them on faith at different times.
Correct me if I am wrong, but are you not a believer in Maitreya? A future Buddha presently teaching in another realm to devas or some such?
How have you checked this story out? Have you been there to see for yourself?
How has this belief exacerbated your delusion and caused suffering?
If it hasn't, why not?
Also, before you get high and mighty, let's not forget the Tibetan Liberation front or the Sri Lanken civil war. There are fundamentalists everywhere. Debating another view is one thing, but discriminating against other views is NOT being compassionate. Sorry. Yes, I've only been studying Buddhism for a year and have more to learn. I still have a long path ahead of me. However, one thing I do know is that Buddha never said "there is no god", but that God is not really an important factor. Meaning you can, or don't have to, believe in God as you please; it's just seperate from the 4NT and the 8FP. He did not "disprove" it/
Interesting fact: 49% of Japanese Buddhists believe in God. As do about 80% of Taiwanese Buddhists. Are they any less of Buddhists becuase they believe in a creator? What about Buddhists who claim that morality only comes from the teachings of Buddha (like some on this site have before)? How is that different? How is a Pureland Buddhist praying for a good rebirth in the Pureland any different from a Christian praying for their own salvation? When one becomes lost in their own Dogma (and Buddhists can be dogmatic), then they become closed off to other beliefs. So yes, you are correct, but also mistaken.
Also, once again, bad things have been done in the name of the Buddha. Hell, Nichirin was very much closed of to other Buddhists to the point that he claimed his school was the only true path.
Also, submitting to a God is not the only " answer God based religions have". What about the charity, love and compassion that comes with it? I love how you say it's a wrong view as if you know the answers. Since we are talking about "wrong views", aren't you New Kampada? How would you feel if someone thinks it's a "wrong view" and nothing more than a bastardization of Gelug? I know there are many who do say that, but based on your logic, who can't say that they're right and you're wrong?
Also, before you get high and mighty, let's not forget the Tibetan Liberation front or the Sri Lanken civil war. There are fundamentalists everywhere. Debating another view is one thing, but discriminating against other views is NOT being compassionate. Sorry. Yes, I've only been studying Buddhism for a year and have more to learn. I still have a long path ahead of me. However, one thing I do know is that Buddha never said "there is no god", but that God is not really an important factor. Meaning you can, or don't have to, believe in God as you please; it's just seperate from the 4NT and the 8FP. He did not "disprove" it/
Interesting fact: 49% of Japanese Buddhists believe in God. As do about 80% of Taiwanese Buddhists. Are they any less of Buddhists becuase they believe in a creator? What about Buddhists who claim that morality only comes from the teachings of Buddha (like some on this site have before)? How is that different? How is a Pureland Buddhist praying for a good rebirth in the Pureland any different from a Christian praying for their own salvation? When one becomes lost in their own Dogma (and Buddhists can be dogmatic), then they become closed off to other beliefs. So yes, you are correct, but also mistaken.
Also, once again, bad things have been done in the name of the Buddha. Hell, Nichirin was very much closed of to other Buddhists to the point that he claimed his school was the only true path.
Also, submitting to a God is not the only " answer God based religions have". What about the charity, love and compassion that comes with it? I love how you say it's a wrong view as if you know the answers. Since we are talking about "wrong views", aren't you New Kampada? How would you feel if someone thinks it's a "wrong view" and nothing more than a bastardization of Gelug? I know there are many who do say that, but based on your logic, who can't say that they're right and you're wrong?
:-/ :wave: Kadampa Buddhism has been around hundreds of years before the Gelug school, it has been around since it was formed by Atisha in the 11th century way before the Gelug was formed. If anything the Gelug school is just a corruption of Kadmpa Buddhism.
Also the NKT does not contradict Buddhism where Mormonism does Christianity for example they say that the Garden of Eden was in North America when it was stated in the Bible that it was in the area of the Tigris and Euphrates rivers in the Middle East, it clearly is a corruption of Christianity.
Furthermore atleast the NKT has never inspired any one to massacre a group of innocent people or ever been associated with Racism, or displayed any "culty" behaviour.
:rant:
The integrity of a viking is not on whether Valhallah is real. We have preferences over the most lucid dream.
When we wake up to the emptiness of form, we exist in a form of emptiness.
If you believe something to be true and another person has a different dream, you are arguing over the most comfortable delusion.
Believe you can awaken.
Practice as if you can and will.
You're an island no matter what you do. I think it's very dangerous to use popularity as your identity in life. So you have to really know who you are inside, the core person, and follow what is true rather than follow what is hype.
Donny Osmond
{2} True enough, scripture does have a role to play in monotheistic religions, so unlike Buddhist tradition which has no extant scriptures in existence whatsoever, as we all so well know!!!!!!! And even if there were Buddhist scriptures, I am sure no one would ever quote them —that would be so UnBuddhistic-like, wouldn't it?
If anyone, however, understands the mechanisms of a true "Godly religion" as "a mysterious outside force operating on the internal working of the human mind," as you state, I believe he or she is being overly analytical to the extent of grasping at straws. And where is the Heart in all of this? And where are the virtues (such as the Theological Virtues of Faith, Hope, and Charity)? Is it all simple morality based on some code from Leviticus? Hardly.
For the mystic monotheist, God —though a mystery— moves inscrutably, whether from within or from without. Some in the Eastern Church and some Sufis, too, believe in the divinization of humankind as being achievable on earth. Actually, that come closer to the Eastern idea of Enlightenment than anything in Western Christianity does.
Just let go or is it let God?
Also, before you get high and mighty, let's not forget the Tibetan Liberation front or the Sri Lanken civil war. There are fundamentalists everywhere. Debating another view is one thing, but discriminating against other views is NOT being compassionate. Sorry. Yes, I've only been studying Buddhism for a year and have more to learn. I still have a long path ahead of me. However, one thing I do know is that Buddha never said "there is no god", but that God is not really an important factor. Meaning you can, or don't have to, believe in God as you please; it's just seperate from the 4NT and the 8FP. He did not "disprove" it/
Interesting fact: 49% of Japanese Buddhists believe in God. As do about 80% of Taiwanese Buddhists. Are they any less of Buddhists becuase they believe in a creator? What about Buddhists who claim that morality only comes from the teachings of Buddha (like some on this site have before)? How is that different? How is a Pureland Buddhist praying for a good rebirth in the Pureland any different from a Christian praying for their own salvation? When one becomes lost in their own Dogma (and Buddhists can be dogmatic), then they become closed off to other beliefs. So yes, you are correct, but also mistaken.
Also, once again, bad things have been done in the name of the Buddha. Hell, Nichirin was very much closed of to other Buddhists to the point that he claimed his school was the only true path.
Also, submitting to a God is not the only " answer God based religions have". What about the charity, love and compassion that comes with it? I love how you say it's a wrong view as if you know the answers. Since we are talking about "wrong views", aren't you New Kampada? How would you feel if someone thinks it's a "wrong view" and nothing more than a bastardization of Gelug? I know there are many who do say that, but based on your logic, who can't say that they're right and you're wrong?
It may take me a while to respond to each of these points so I will get back to you on this when I have more time.
I'd have an easier time listening to a missionary if they were more honest about how they are really operating: they are totally based on faith, which is belief without any personal investigation. If there is no room for investigation, then there is no room for logic. And then there is no room for growth. And I need leg room.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=BU6Uv3FptPU
I am not trying to rake on anyone but when do you stop being PC and call non-sense non-sense? Personally I don't care if you want to believe in the tooth fairy, if that helps you be a better person and get through life, more power to you, but to say I can't question the rationality or logic of someones beliefs is baffling. I like Buddhism because it doesn't require me to suspend my critical thinking-it's logical and something that one can test for oneself.
What I think we are saying is to respect the religions of others as part of being a humane person. I've yet to see any religion -- including Buddhism -- where it's all a proven fact.
You know, rather than put another person's belief down, a better way of phrasing such discussions is saying, "I believe that" or "We believe that".
I'm not saying that if suttas say the Buddha was born out of his mother's side and actually had lotus blossoms appearing out of his footsteps, we should believe it to be true. Rather, I'm saying that sometimes applying worldly principles to aspects of life which are not-quite-worldly seems like a fool's errand.
Just a quick thought.
I agree Vinlyn, especially the "I believe that." I am the last person to decree I know all the answers, I really don't know anything. If one can follow a belief system that places morality and virtue in high regard and it is a vehicle to help them live a good life, I think that is wonderful. Personally for me, I am not given to ideas of god or the afterlife. My outlook is one of I am here right now, what can I do right now, but I don't hold it against another if they think otherwise. I hold in high regard many of the Sufi poets and mystics, Rumi, Hafiz ect. To me I read their writings and I can see that they have touched the heart of the matter, they have connected to something very deep and beautiful., but it doesn't mean I shut my eyes or don't question other practices rooted in that faith. I will be honest, some Buddhist traditions and ideas are pie in the sky to me. We humans like our fables, our world, to most, is maybe too mundane. Myself not so, I view this life as wonderous and amazing as it is.
Even the Dalai Lama uses the word "God" in a lot of his talks and writings.
As the saying goes “God forgives and I forgive”, but actually, I'm not offended.
When reading Buddhist commentary on the refutation of a creator god it is always done based on a certain predetermined concept of what a creator god is, and therefore it has to be defined before it is negated.
From a mystical Christian perspective, using apophatic or negative theology, any assertions used to describe "God" are inadequate and clinging to them are reflective of mundane ignorance and attachment.
Here, a divine ignorance is required, meaning that ultimately all concepts must be dropped and there in the silent stillness of the prayer of the heart "God" is contemplated, and union or deification is experienced.
Since you are making the exclusive claims I think the onus is on you to prove your case.
Can you demonstrate that the clear light nature of the luminous mind is not empty of itself?
Can you define this clear light nature of mind, or is it ultimately beyond words and concepts, mysterious in its essence that must be experienced to be truly understood?
Are you saying that a Christian definition other than "inherently existent sky daddy" could be exempt from that refutation?
If so it certainly leaves room for a more inclusive view on your part, and mine.
http://www.katinkahesselink.net/sufi/sufi-shah.html
Ah well . . . Time to get real? More discussion?
Of course, if we are able to logically refute an idea this does not prove it is false. Only empiricism can do this. Still, usually we trust to logic for our beliefs, and there seems no reason to make an exception for religion. But then I like logic. Not everyone does.
If I was drowning in a lake and someone risked their own life to save me I don't think I would give a toss about the validity of their spiritual practice, but I certainly would be most grateful for their compassionate action.