Is Intuition "Mysticism"?

Dakini

(Inspired by Lobster)
If meditation facilitates intuitive experience, is that the same as mystical experience? Some people feel that the term "mystical" has negative connotations, or denotes something "woo-woo". Is intuition "woo-woo"? Is "woo-woo" bad?

One definition of mysticism that was posted here was "becoming one with the Absolute", or accessing the Absolute. And Mahayana, especially Zen followers, talk about the Absolute, so that's not a bad thing, right? Is that the goal of meditation (for Mahayanists, at least)? What is the "Absolute", anyway? :scratch:

Jeffrey

The absolute is none other than the awake nature of mind, bodhicitta. Intuition could mean awake mind. My sangha notices three qualities of bodhicitta: openness, clarity, and sensitivity.

Openness is how we are open minded. You can find all the words in your vocabulary, but it comes down to not having a rigid claustrophobic view. Clarity is the ability of awareness to cut to the truth. Sensitivity is both feeling, and the ability to respond. So I think intuition is related to openness because it is yielding and can adapt to whatever situation. There is clarity also to intuition, clearly. Awareness. And an intuitive person has a soft spot or a sore spot that is at one with the intuition. A soft spot.

MaryAnne

True intuition is indeed "woo-woo" stuff. True intuition really can't be measured, calculated or learned. One is intuitive or one is not. One can learn different tricks about reading body language, voice pitch and tones, eye contact, etc.... but that's learning body language etc - a rational example of experiential evidence. Intuition - real intuition - is something else.

taiyaki

Meditation is intuitive experience.
Which depending on definition is the same as a mystical experience.
But those who are material realists would highly disagree.
Intuition is living as the body/right brain.

"Becoming one with the absolute" = impossible because the absolute already is the functioning of the relative.

The absolute is totally this. Slaps the ground. Ordinary to most, extraordinary with context. Liberation to those with valid cognition.

Dakini

MaryAnne said:

True intuition is indeed "woo-woo" stuff. True intuition really can't be measured, calculated or learned. One is intuitive or one is not. One can learn different tricks about reading body language, voice pitch and tones, eye contact, etc.... but that's learning body language etc - a rational example of experiential evidence. Intuition - real intuition - is something else.

I love your clarity on this; I've been wondering myself how much of my ability to read people (per your other post) is due to being tuned into subtle cues, and how much of it is "something else". Don't want to get off-topic here, though--I'll PM you.

Jeffrey

The trouble with intuition is that we get multiples of signals. And our tendancy is to latch onto one or some of these signals and conjure up a world (prapancha/sankhara) that is very one sided and ignores a good portion of the multiple signals. So we close down to them and get a distorted picture.

lobster

True intuition really can't be measured, calculated or learned.

In the dervish path, it very much is developed. I also feel it is natural to our being and so unfolds or we become aware of it in Buddhism.
It does seem to have components that are outside of present rational explanations of how or why it is effective. :wave:

chela

We seem to have multiple threads about intuition. Just so that I understand what we're really talking about, and if my idea of my own intuition is what everyone else is talking about, here's an example of one simple thing that has happened on numerous occasions that I can't explain: My son is in the neighborhood, at one of his friends' houses and gone for several hours or most of the day. At some point, I just have this feeling/sort of vision that he is walking up the driveway. I go to the back door and look outside. Within a second or two, he comes into my view.

On a few other occasions, I get this same feeling/vision, and I call his cell phone to see when he is coming home. He explains that he's almost to the driveway or about to walk in or whatever.

Is this intuition? I would chalk it up to coincidence if this happened once or twice. But it happened quite a bit. I don't have this type of thing happen very much with anyone else in my life (and I have three children).

Dakini

Jeffrey said:

The trouble with intuition is that we get multiples of signals. And our tendancy is to latch onto one or some of these signals and conjure up a world (prapancha/sankhara) that is very one sided and ignores a good portion of the multiple signals. So we close down to them and get a distorted picture.

This is true in life in general, I think. But what about intuition as part of the meditation practice? Aren't we supposed to notice everything that comes up? All the signals?

Jeffrey

Yes. Pema Chodron says that one of the five benefits of meditation is to see what is there.

The other four: be our own friend, sit with the most difficult, be present, and make no big deal or fuss over our experience.

lobster

@chela
What you are describing is perception. Intuition is the interpretation or knowing of ones perception. So for example we may sense when a friend of relative is near or about to phone. Intuition is opening the door, going to the phone . . .
I would suggest these arisings seem quite natural if they occur and are a natural consequence of a quiet being. Most of us are still in the turmoil of our own noise . . .

Nevermind

taiyaki said:

Meditation is intuitive experience.
Which depending on definition is the same as a mystical experience.
But those who are material realists would highly disagree.
Intuition is living as the body/right brain.

No this is wrong. Intuition is merely developing expertise or skill, in any activity. Also the right brain region is not responsible for this activity.

Mystisim is essentially transnationality.

taiyaki

Nevermind said:

taiyaki said:

Meditation is intuitive experience.
Which depending on definition is the same as a mystical experience.
But those who are material realists would highly disagree.
Intuition is living as the body/right brain.

No this is wrong. Intuition is merely developing expertise or skill, in any activity. Also the right brain region is not responsible for this activity.

Mystisim is essentially transnationality.

Not at all. Many people develop technical skills in their craft. It is intuition that sparks genius. The willingness to dive into the present of actually engaging in the craft itself.

The right brain/soma/body is responsible when we're actively engaging in the craft in the moment. Not the left brain, conceptual processes.

Have you ever made music or art? Sure there is thinking involved but when it comes down to it you just do it without any reservations.

Jeffrey

Buddha had both sides of brain though!

Actually I read somewhere on the web that meditation artwork always depicts one or the other of the legs as the top leg in meditation. And that only a Buddha is depicted with the other over the top. It could be one of those 'the internet is never wrong' type situations, though haha.

taiyaki

Jeffrey said:

The trouble with intuition is that we get multiples of signals. And our tendancy is to latch onto one or some of these signals and conjure up a world (prapancha/sankhara) that is very one sided and ignores a good portion of the multiple signals. So we close down to them and get a distorted picture.

This is where the experience of basic goodness is important. With that openness one responds to the moment with the basic goodness as the inspiration. We see with eyes unclouded and respond accordingly to what the situation holds. That is crazy wisdom or compassionate bodhisattva action.

What is required is to cut completely through limitations and see the purity of the instant, while at the same time not ignoring the conditions and circumstance.

Its a very dangerous game because it can also perpetuate samsara endlessly. So the basic inspiration is key.

taiyaki

Intuition begins when we step back from our little ideas about things.

Its non verbal and completely self evident intelligence shining forth from each moment of experience.

Its not even an interpretation as there is not artifice in intuition. Intuition is sincerity and spontaneous activity of this instant. Completely full of meaning in it of itself.

To dive into this fully is meditation and to fully dive and exert is to die completely each instant.

Then the impermanence will be seen to be non-arisen. The relative = the absolute.

This would be making art without knowing what you're making.

Or dancing without intention.

Or playing jazz. Improv. Etc.

Nevermind

taiyaki said:

Nevermind said:

taiyaki said:

Meditation is intuitive experience.
Which depending on definition is the same as a mystical experience.
But those who are material realists would highly disagree.
Intuition is living as the body/right brain.

No this is wrong. Intuition is merely developing expertise or skill, in any activity. Also the right brain region is not responsible for this activity.

Mystisim is essentially transnationality.

Not at all. Many people develop technical skills in their craft. It is intuition that sparks genius.

Intuition is frequently wrong, in fact.

taiyaki said:

The willingness to dive into the present of actually engaging in the craft itself.

It's merely developing skill to the point where conscious thought isn't required, basically.

taiyaki said:

The right brain/soma/body is responsible when we're actively engaging in the craft in the moment. Not the left brain, conceptual processes.

That may be true, but the subject is intuition, which is not the same thing as being engaged. We can be totally engaged in a game of chess, for example, with never having played it before and with no intuition.

taiyaki said:

Have you ever made music or art? Sure there is thinking involved but when it comes down to it you just do it without any reservations.

Intuition is not about doing something without reservation. In fact intuition may bring reservations about something and stop an activity, like when there's a gut feeling about something being wrong. And this feeling could be wrong.

taiyaki

Nevermind said:

taiyaki said:

Nevermind said:

taiyaki said:

Meditation is intuitive experience.
Which depending on definition is the same as a mystical experience.
But those who are material realists would highly disagree.
Intuition is living as the body/right brain.

No this is wrong. Intuition is merely developing expertise or skill, in any activity. Also the right brain region is not responsible for this activity.

Mystisim is essentially transnationality.

Not at all. Many people develop technical skills in their craft. It is intuition that sparks genius.

Intuition is frequently wrong, in fact.

taiyaki said:

The willingness to dive into the present of actually engaging in the craft itself.

It's merely developing skill to the point where conscious thought isn't required, basically.

taiyaki said:

The right brain/soma/body is responsible when we're actively engaging in the craft in the moment. Not the left brain, conceptual processes.

That may be true, but the subject is intuition, which is not the same thing as being engaged. We can be totally engaged in a game of chess, for example, with never having played it before and with no intuition.

taiyaki said:

Have you ever made music or art? Sure there is thinking involved but when it comes down to it you just do it without any reservations.

Intuition is not about doing something without reservation. In fact intuition may bring reservations about something and stop an activity, like when there's a gut feeling about something being wrong. And this feeling could be wrong.

Yup I agree except the first part. Intuition is wrong only in hindsight and only within the context of defined wrongness/rightness.

Nevermind

taiyaki said:

Nevermind said:

taiyaki said:

Nevermind said:

taiyaki said:

Meditation is intuitive experience.
Which depending on definition is the same as a mystical experience.
But those who are material realists would highly disagree.
Intuition is living as the body/right brain.

No this is wrong. Intuition is merely developing expertise or skill, in any activity. Also the right brain region is not responsible for this activity.

Mystisim is essentially transnationality.

Not at all. Many people develop technical skills in their craft. It is intuition that sparks genius.

Intuition is frequently wrong, in fact.

taiyaki said:

The willingness to dive into the present of actually engaging in the craft itself.

It's merely developing skill to the point where conscious thought isn't required, basically.

taiyaki said:

The right brain/soma/body is responsible when we're actively engaging in the craft in the moment. Not the left brain, conceptual processes.

That may be true, but the subject is intuition, which is not the same thing as being engaged. We can be totally engaged in a game of chess, for example, with never having played it before and with no intuition.

taiyaki said:

Have you ever made music or art? Sure there is thinking involved but when it comes down to it you just do it without any reservations.

Intuition is not about doing something without reservation. In fact intuition may bring reservations about something and stop an activity, like when there's a gut feeling about something being wrong. And this feeling could be wrong.

Yup I agree except the first part. Intuition is wrong only in hindsight and only within the context of defined wrongness/rightness.

Is there any other way to be wrong?

taiyaki

I teach kids art. And they always come with a preconceived vision of wrong.

And I ask whats wrong about your art work?

And they say just because.

And then I have to tell them that wrong is based on context. Obvious you see something wrong about it, what exactly is it?

and then we learn all about the art movements and how they dealt with that same issue of wrongness/truth/etc.

but yes for those with the feeling of wrongness it is an intuition that they cannot remove themselves from. the artwork, the world, people are wrong and usually there is no rational justification for it.

So I totally agree that intuitions can be wrong, but with context. But then I suppose I just proved myself wrong for the statement on context because people can claim wrongness based on their intuitions. But then again those arising from previous conditioned moments of wrongness.

Anyways freeing ourselves from this compulsion to be wrong or right is where intuition begins. Every artist wants to just create art and be inspired. But as you say we need to actively develop the craft to a point where there is no more conscious thinking, no more artifice. Just play.

Jeffrey

taiyaki said:

Jeffrey said:

The trouble with intuition is that we get multiples of signals. And our tendancy is to latch onto one or some of these signals and conjure up a world (prapancha/sankhara) that is very one sided and ignores a good portion of the multiple signals. So we close down to them and get a distorted picture.

This is where the experience of basic goodness is important. With that openness one responds to the moment with the basic goodness as the inspiration. We see with eyes unclouded and respond accordingly to what the situation holds. That is crazy wisdom or compassionate bodhisattva action.

What is required is to cut completely through limitations and see the purity of the instant, while at the same time not ignoring the conditions and circumstance.

Its a very dangerous game because it can also perpetuate samsara endlessly. So the basic inspiration is key.

"As we solidify our world we lose touch with the spaciousness and the dynamic of change that is inherent in every moment of experience. This helps us to understand how suffering and pain become very solid and real to us, and theat turning away from pain and trying to avoid feeling it makes it even more solid and real. Gradually we learn to let go of that clinging and return to the spaciousness and dynamic nature of experience"

-from my coursebook just reading now!

Dakini

Jeffrey said:

Buddha had both sides of brain though!

Correct. He accessed intuition via meditation, but some of his principles appear to have been arrived at logically. The 4 Noble Truths, for example. And of course, when he was busy fund-raising for his community of monks, talking to wealthy sponsors, giving teachings, organizing his community, these also were left-brained tasks.

Buddhism as we study and practice it today involves both. The "study" part, learning philosophical concepts, receiving and testing teachings, engage one side of the brain. Meditation opens up the other side, and gives us insight and wisdom. It's a good balance.

Nevermind

taiyaki said:

but yes for those with the feeling of wrongness it is an intuition that they cannot remove themselves from. the artwork, the world, people are wrong and usually there is no rational justification for it.

Thinking that the whole world or people in general are "wrong" is not intuition. I don't know what that is.

taiyaki said:

So I totally agree that intuitions can be wrong, but with context. But then I suppose I just proved myself wrong for the statement on context because people can claim wrongness based on their intuitions. But then again those arising from previous conditioned moments of wrongness.

Your meaning is not clear here.

taiyaki said:

Anyways freeing ourselves from this compulsion to be wrong or right is where intuition begins.

Developing a skill or experience is where intuition begins.

taiyaki said:

But as you say we need to actively develop the craft to a point where there is no more conscious thinking, no more artifice. Just play.

I would never say that. I only said intuition is developed with skill or experience in some area.

Jeffrey

The rational side of the brain is very important, believe you me as coming from someone who hears voices! I have to have my rational basis to be skeptical of the information I am hearing from these voices. Might seem obvious, but there is constant peer pressure to view myself as someone who is hurting the voices with my own feelings and thoughts. So I need to have the rational side to me to rise up.