"learn to die now" ?

genkaku

I don't mean to play the gloomy Gus, but since everyone plans to die (or, even if they don't plan to, still they will die), I think it's fair to imagine that all things will eventually drop away ... lollipops, snow shovels, Buddhism, wisdom, ignorance ... the lot. No big deal -- it's just what happens, I imagine.

And if this is the case, is there any value to the exhortation, "Don't die later. Learn to die now" ?

I think maybe there is, though I'm not entirely sure what that value might be.

What do you think?

JohnG

Study the book, The Tibetan book of living and dying. Face death without fear, by learning to live now.

Dakini

There definitely is. There's a meditation exercise in Tibetan Buddhism that teaches exactly that. Visualizing oneself on one's deathbed is very useful for clarifying one's priorities in life, and for teaching that life is precious, don't waste a moment of it.

vinlyn

I'm just curius how old genkaku and JohnG are.

genkaku

@vinlyn -- I'll be 73 next week... and as a post-script, I seldom read books any more.

vinlyn

Cool, then I can consider what you have to say on the topic. Frankly, those who are young who philosophize about dying...well, they don't a perspective that gives me much faith in their comments.

genkaku

they don't a perspective that gives me much faith in their comments.

@vinlyn -- I hear what you're saying, but trust you will be somewhat skeptical of the thought.

I think a lot of people use camouflage philosophizing/wisdom-izing (at any age) as a way of covering the fact that they really are thinking about a particular topic.

It may be tedious to listen to, but it doesn't detract from what I think is a fact.

PS. This is one of the best excuses I can think of for blogging -- an activity to which I plead guilty: You can barf at will without necessarily getting it all over someone else's shoes.

how

genkaku said:

And if this is the case, is there any value to the exhortation, "Don't die later. Learn to die now" ?
I think maybe there is, though I'm not entirely sure what that value might be.
What do you think?

It's easy to intellectually see that birth, life and death is the eventual cellular reality for this meat body.
It's harder to face the wider reality that it's all cycling repeating for us within the time frame that it takes this keystroke to occur.
It's harder still to face what maintains the illusion of a separate collective identity within this ever shifting mass of living and dying.

All spiritual experiences, small or large, bring us closer to freeing ourselves from this delusional construct. (sufferings cause.)

The value of fully facing death now is to awaken from our dream of being separate from the rest of existence.

It's not a bad description of Buddhism.



PS

The danger of talking about it though has supposed historical references of a mass suicide by early monks in the Buddha's time, who took this teaching too literally. It is sometimes referred to as the Buddhas most obvious mistake (proof of his human frailty) as a teacher.

Nevermind

genkaku said:

I don't mean to play the gloomy Gus, but since everyone plans to die (or, even if they don't plan to, still they will die), I think it's fair to imagine that all things will eventually drop away ... lollipops, snow shovels, Buddhism, wisdom, ignorance ... the lot. No big deal -- it's just what happens, I imagine.

And if this is the case, is there any value to the exhortation, "Don't die later. Learn to die now" ?

I think maybe there is, though I'm not entirely sure what that value might be.

What do you think?

A the risk of sounding like a hopeless romantic, maybe because by learning to die we learn to love.

Invincible_summer

I know we're not talking about suicide, but Brad Warner wrote about how the strong intent and visualization of committing suicide at one point in his life actually made him feel free of the emotions that led him to that point. It was a "conceptual suicide."

Jeffrey

I would be sad that I would never see the sun again.

Rodrigo

Isn't enlightenment a kind of death? For when we die, we lose our selves, our possessions, our attachments – and that's why it's so scary. Isn't the same fear that keep us from enlightenment?

genkaku

@Rodrigo -- To suggest that we 'lose' our selves in Buddhism is a bit peculiar.

Gautama was alleged to have taught that there is no abiding self.

So, unless he and others like him were mistaken, it's a bit odd to lose something you never had in the first place.

How sensible would I be to sit around worrying that I might lose a million dollars when I never had a million dollars in the first place?

Rodrigo

@genkaku, you are totally right. What I meant is that we fear to lose our delusion of being a self.

lobster

Isn't enlightenment a kind of death?

The sufis say you have to 'die before you die'.
The Christian gnostics and Mat Damien are attempting to be 'born again'

Some of us faced with life are deadened.
Some of us have faced death . . . and are alive.

What do you do with your experience?
Sit on Mr Cushion until dead?

:clap: We could have a dharma party. I will bring the lobster, get in the pot and stir myself into a new party meal . . . One day I may come back as a carrot . . .

Jeffrey

You will need onions to go along. I will become onions or pepper or something else.

In a moment deadened falls away. That's how bodhicitta rolls.