Shamanism and Buddhism?

Jayjay

I've been Buddhist for about a year and a half now but have been practicing deeper and deeper into Shamanic beliefs for the past half a year or so. How do Shamanic practices and beliefs conflict or coincide with Buddhist practices and beliefs? How does my Shamanism effect my Buddhism and visa versa? Anyone with knowledge on Shamanism I would LOVE the input, opinions are welcome, if further explanation of my practices are needed just ask, thank you very much for the help and input! Wei wu wei

Invincible_summer

Similar to the thread on being a Christian + being a Buddhist at the same time... as a layperson, if you can make the two work together, then all the power to you.

However, as your practice of either/both deepens, there's bound to be some things that don't work out and you may end up compromising.

But you may have to elaborate on what you mean by "shamanism" - what beliefs do you hold, the practices, etc. I'm not very familiar with the spiritual tradition, and from I understand, it is very varied.

lobster

Wei wu wei

I hear the Wii U is not selling well . . . ah well that is the way of it . . .
Are you involved in Taoist practice or something involving bears?

I knew a tantric monk who was comfortable and supported in his use of tantra (highly shamanic) and some South American Shamanism.

MindGate

Please excuse my ignorance, but don't many Native American and South American Shamanistic rituals involve the use of hallucinogens such as mescaline or LSA?

Cinorjer

Oh, that takes me back. Korea has managed to combine both native Shamanism and Buddhism for centuries. I was honored to be invited to a ceremony at one village while I was stationed there. That showed a huge amount of trust by my Korean friends.

Koreans don't like to talk about Shamanism much, because the official government policy is, it's backward superstition and should be left behind. There was even a deliberate policy led by the Christian missionaries favored by the US backed government to treat even Buddhism this way, although that wasn't as successful. Anyway, I digress.

In Korea, Shamanism is a religion of the countryside, of isolated communities. The Shamans are all women, interestingly. They receive a calling and are apprenticed to an established Shaman. The Shamans are involved now mainly in ceremonies to drive off troublesome spirits and pretty much only the old folks care about it. She goes into trances, channels various spirits, etc. She's also supposed to do things like stand on the edge of a sword while in the trance, although in the ceremony I witnessed, all she did was dance a bit and then yell a lot.

And this was a good Buddhist family, who saw no reason to reject their native beliefs just because they have a Buddhist shrine in their house and a temple nearby. I never did find out why the family felt the need for a Shaman to conduct some sort of exorcism, or what the result was. I was advised before going, to give the Shaman a donation and thank her for letting me be part of it.

There are shrines on about every mountaintop in Korea, where a Buddhist shrine sits next to a shrine honoring the particular spirit of the mountain in whatever form. Offerings are left at both.

Takuan

Tibetan Buddhism, though based on Indian Buddhist thought, also has roots in Bon, the Shamanistic religion of Tibet. In fact there is a documentary about Tibetan oracles, that features both the Dalai Lama and his younger brother, I believe it was Tenzin Choegyal. Tenzin talks for a few minutes about the Bon history of Tibetan Buddhism.

If you're looking for a practice that incorporates both Buddhism and Shamanism, I would suggest checking out Bon Buddhism.

lobster

Some do. He stopped the use of cocaine and other narcotics

MindGate said:

Please excuse my ignorance, but don't many Native American and South American Shamanistic rituals involve the use of hallucinogens such as mescaline or LSA?

caz

Takuan said:

Tibetan Buddhism, though based on Indian Buddhist thought, also has roots in Bon, the Shamanistic religion of Tibet. In fact there is a documentary about Tibetan oracles, that features both the Dalai Lama and his younger brother, I believe it was Tenzin Choegyal. Tenzin talks for a few minutes about the Bon history of Tibetan Buddhism.

If you're looking for a practice that incorporates both Buddhism and Shamanism, I would suggest checking out Bon Buddhism.

Bon is not Buddhism it is a knock off version, The Monastic Bon you see today drew heavily from the transplant of Buddhism to Tibet not the other way around, There are still some of the old Bonpo Shamans wondering around the Tibetan area whom are completely different from the Monastic Bon this is a very clear indication of who copied who.

It is completely wrong to say Tibetan Buddhism has roots in Bon nothing in the monastic curriculum or Buddhist practice is Derived from Bon, There are a few cultural similarities but nothing that is interchangeable between the two.

Cinorjer

caz said:

Takuan said:

Tibetan Buddhism, though based on Indian Buddhist thought, also has roots in Bon, the Shamanistic religion of Tibet. In fact there is a documentary about Tibetan oracles, that features both the Dalai Lama and his younger brother, I believe it was Tenzin Choegyal. Tenzin talks for a few minutes about the Bon history of Tibetan Buddhism.

If you're looking for a practice that incorporates both Buddhism and Shamanism, I would suggest checking out Bon Buddhism.

Bon is not Buddhism it is a knock off version, The Monastic Bon you see today drew heavily from the transplant of Buddhism to Tibet not the other way around, There are still some of the old Bonpo Shamans wondering around the Tibetan area whom are completely different from the Monastic Bon this is a very clear indication of who copied who.

It is completely wrong to say Tibetan Buddhism has roots in Bon nothing in the monastic curriculum or Buddhist practice is Derived from Bon, There are a few cultural similarities but nothing that is interchangeable between the two.

To be fair, there are a lot of scholars and other researchers into Eastern culture who hold various views about the role of Bon in Tibetan Buddhism and argue one side or another. One difficulty is, most of the early manuscripts discovered over the last couple hundred years were acquired by visiting Western explorers, scattered around universities and museums and a lot of it isn't even translated yet.

Jayjay

Thanks to everyone for their input on the subject, I'll will be sure to look into all mentioned above.

As to my practices, to whom it may concern, once or twice a month I enter a meditative state using shamanic drumming and I partake in a ritual of the mind that makes one travel into the spirit world. Once there, I meet entities and consult with them, these are my spirit guides. I've found this method very helpful, and all though I have greatly considered certain traditional shamanic medicines (or hallucinogenics) to aid my visions and consultations with the spirits, I am yet to use them. A lot of because it is against my Buddhism beliefs against intoxication. I still partake in normal Buddhist meditations often, but I feel my connection with energy and spiritual forces deepen my connection with Buddhism. When I meditate in nature I am able to gain the energy and spirit of the things around me such as trees. I absorb that while I meditate because of my connection to the spirit world.

That's about it

On the subject of "drugs" used in shamanism, there are MANY. The most common are types of mushrooms and Ayahuasca. In the modern era, though, people have used LSD as a shamanic drug as well. Most are psychedelic in nature though. Most traditional shamanic medicines are medicines that do not cause much harm to the body or mind though, yet remain illegal. This is what distinguishes shamanic drugs from ecstasy or other drugs such as that. They are also mostly completely made from natural substances. Also, unlike modern drugs such as cocaine, ecstasy, and DMT. If interested in the "drug" part of shamanism, a good man to look up is Terence Mckenna. He will tell you all you need to know.

@Invincible_summer what conflicts could you forsee between my practices, outlined, and practices and beliefs of Buddhism?


Once again thanks to everyone inputting their opinions and knowledge!

karasti

I really don't know much about this, so excuse my ignorant questions. If a person is using psychedelic drugs, how can they be sure what they experience is real and not just imagination gone haywire? The drugs produce hallucinations, so I've always wondered how you know it's a hallucination or a true expansion of consciousness. I know that Native Americans have used peyote and mescaline and others in their rituals and traditions, but I'm not sure that the drugs of today even come close to what they used (or still use) for those purposes.

Takuan

caz said:

Bon is not Buddhism it is a knock off version, The Monastic Bon you see today drew heavily from the transplant of Buddhism to Tibet not the other way around, There are still some of the old Bonpo Shamans wondering around the Tibetan area whom are completely different from the Monastic Bon this is a very clear indication of who copied who.

It is completely wrong to say Tibetan Buddhism has roots in Bon nothing in the monastic curriculum or Buddhist practice is Derived from Bon, There are a few cultural similarities but nothing that is interchangeable between the two.

If you like, @caz, I can provide the video in which Tenzin Choegyal states this.



it starts at 11:01 and Bon is mentioned several times throughout the documentary.

Cinorjer

karasti said:

I really don't know much about this, so excuse my ignorant questions. If a person is using psychedelic drugs, how can they be sure what they experience is real and not just imagination gone haywire? The drugs produce hallucinations, so I've always wondered how you know it's a hallucination or a true expansion of consciousness. I know that Native Americans have used peyote and mescaline and others in their rituals and traditions, but I'm not sure that the drugs of today even come close to what they used (or still use) for those purposes.

Well, the whole idea is to blur the line between reality and perception, to "expand your consciousness" and gain insight that way. I guess to someone on a mind trip, a hallucination IS the same thing as an expanded consciousness. But in my case, even in my younger, experimental days, I never liked feeling out of control and so never did much exploring and I certainly am no expert on mind altering trips.

karasti

my sister did some of that stuff in her time. Not for the spiritual aspect, but just to do it. She said it was horrendous. It's never something I was interested in. Plus, the loss of control is something I would not enjoy or be able to open up to even. I don't even like the feeling if I happen to get a buzz off alcohol, and I avoid getting to that point.
My son hallucinated bizarre things when he was ill once, and it certainly didn't seem to be something I'd seek to experience!

Dakini

Jayjay said:

I've been Buddhist for about a year and a half now but have been practicing deeper and deeper into Shamanic beliefs for the past half a year or so. How do Shamanic practices and beliefs conflict or coincide with Buddhist practices and beliefs? How does my Shamanism effect my Buddhism and visa versa? Anyone with knowledge on Shamanism I would LOVE the input, opinions are welcome, if further explanation of my practices are needed just ask, thank you very much for the help and input! Wei wu wei

Actually, the early Tibetan monks who spread Buddhism to Mongolia adapted it to the local shamanic practices. So from that perspective, one could say they're perfectly compatible. You can see this in Tibetan Buddhism, too, where shamanic practices have been given a veneer of Buddhist theory.

However, talking to Tibetans about shamanism, it's interesting, because some of them don't approve of it at all. As if they didn't know it's already part of their religion.

idk, OP. Different strokes for different folks. I think as long as you bring a view of compassion to your practice, that's what counts. Don't be like Milarepa, and go around flinging vengeful energy at your perceived enemies, and you'll be ok, lol.

edit: read your 2nd post. You're already getting good results without hallucinogens, so you don't need them, it seems. AFAIK, Mongol and Tibetan shamans don't use them. That's what the drum is for; to induce a trance state naturally, as you discovered.

Jeffrey

It's said that Padmasambhava taimed Tibet for Buddhism to flourish.

Hotei

Idk much about shahmanism but one day id like to go down to the Amazon and take Ayahuasca with guidance from a Shahman

lobster

Drugs, hypnosis, trance chanting and a dream life are all delusions. Our only hope is waking up. I am with The Buddha on that one . . . :clap:

Florian

Eric Clapton makes good point when he says in an interview that drugs can help you obtain glimpses of truth, but could never be a substitute for the work required to achieve it.

Patr

Buddhism has a history of absorbing aspects of established local practices; Taoism, Hinduism, local religious beliefs in whichever country it is practiced.

One just has to see it for what it is, and it is for all to see,... with open minds.

Patr

One really wonders why TB has to rely on oracles???
Dont they have Lamas with higher realisations that can see into the future.

After all, the deities that possess the mediums are usually from the lower heavenly realms and definitely not from the Budddhist realms.

I personally stick with Chinese Mahayana and Sri Lankan Theravada lineages as they can be said are much 'purer' with less non Buddhist influences.

Cinorjer

According to this interesting website http://earlytibet.com/ what little we do know points to Buddhist monks being involved in divination and casting spells and such for the lay community before coming to Tibet from India.

The whole idea of "pure Buddhism as taught by Buddha" seems to be an illusion, the more we learn about the very early religion that evolved into what we have today.

Dakini

Patr said:

One really wonders why TB has to rely on oracles???
Dont they have Lamas with higher realisations that can see into the future.

After all, the deities that possess the mediums are usually from the lower heavenly realms and definitely not from the Budddhist realms.

I personally stick with Chinese Mahayana and Sri Lankan Theravada lineages as they can be said are much 'purer' with less non Buddhist influences.

lol! The oracles are the shamanic part; the part of Old Tibet that got incorporated into Buddhism. The deities are also from pre-Buddhist Tibet. If our OP is looking for a form of Buddhism that blends in shamanism, as the OP is doing in his personal journey, TB would be the one to pick.

Patr

Mediums are no strangers to South East Asia, they are quite common.
Majority who setup shop are Taoists, the remainder are probably local shamans.
Their services include medical advice and medication, fortune telling, hex removal and general advice. A few are really famous and 'accurate'.

The experiences described in the documentary above is exactly as told by the mediums here. Some can even 'invite' a range of deities to enter, their powers naturally increase as they practice but the majority succumb to corrupt monetary practices and lose their powers. The shamans have a different code, I think.

Yes but this has nothing to do with mainstream Buddhism at all. In fact most monks frown on the practice. Yet we have one of the three main lineages readily adopting it.
It seems even they have yet to relinquish their cravings for the unknown.

Although I do know this is the BON part, cant help but feel disappointed as to where the Dharma has flowed in Vajrayana.

karasti

As with any religion, not all teachers go that route. My teacher is Vajrayana-Nyingma and he doesn't do any sort of work with those things, even though he spends half his year teaching in Nepal and Tibet, and half his year in the US.
The Dharma flows through us, we get out of it what we choose to put into it. The Dharma just is what it is, all the other stuff doesn't take away from it's truth.

ZendoLord84

all is one and one is all so I don't see a particular reason shamanism and buddhism can't mix.

it depends on how well the practitioner can balance both and find a middle way.

Jayjay

I agree greatly with @iamthezenmaster !!!
Thanks again to everyone else for their input, I find it all very helpful and intriguing.


I would like to comment on the debate on the drugs used for shamanistic practices in some forms of shamanism.
On the subject of control: The difference between "drug experience"/"hallucinations" and shamanic rituals using "drugs" is vast. Hallucinations, as stated, can be caused by illness. Most shamans refer to the things they see while using "drugs" as visions, because that is what they are believed to be. You ritualistically indulge in a substance that gives you a glimpse of greater truth through visions. There is no aspect of control, or not control. When people say that they had no control over their visions, or hallucinations, that is for one simple reason: They were seeking control! Shamans do not seek control in practice. They allow the visions in and let them show the shamans what is to be seen. They do not with for control, they wish for the full experience and feel everything that comes with it is necessary, and not to be left out through control. And it is not a wild, run amuc situation either. Most shamanic rituals are done in the presence of one or more shamans and are accompanied by various communications such as: the shamans communication with the spirits, chanting/singing, drumming, and instrument playing. Through these things, the experience and communication with spirits is in a way "controlled" so that the one in the experience obtains the most from it. Obviously, a teenager experimenting with drugs in a poor environment would be a "horrendous" experience compared to a full blown shamanic ritual. No offense of course.

Hope this is informative!
Good vibes to all(:

Patr

iamthezenmaster said:

all is one and one is all so I don't see a particular reason shamanism and buddhism can't mix.


it depends on how well the practitioner can balance both and find a middle way.

For the same reason that the Buddha did not put Hinduism and Shamanism (im sure India at the time must have Shamans) into his teachings and say;

"I see no reason why they all cant be practiced together"
:om:

ZendoLord84

Did you speak with him?
The buddha? What was he like?

Jayjay

IN MY OPINION, The Buddha was souly on a course for a new way. Therefore, though possible, he chose not to adopt or conform with modern religions. It was the jobs of those after him that spread Buddhism to allow and adopt conformation for natives of other religions. But as @iamthezenmaster has hinted to, I haven't spoken with him so I would not know!

Florian

According to Beautiful Painted Arrow, a shaman of the Ute and Pueblo Indians, in their tradition human beings have two states in which they can be conscious. In translation these are 'Believing We Exist' and 'Awakened Awareness'. It would be very easy to see these as synonyms for Samsara and Nirvana.

Jeffrey

The whole notion of a canon implies there were differences of opinion as to what to include. I am positive some of Buddhas original students practiced shamanism at one time or other.

lobster

Buddhas original students practiced shamanism at one time or other.

Kill the heretic. Persecute! Persecute!
(John Cleese - Life of Brian)

meanwhile . . .
our self styled 'elder brothers' have managed to provide us with a new film
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2010/sep/27/kogi-warn-the-west

Go Kogi Mamas. Go!

Florian

I fear our elder brothers are too late to shut the stable door.

lobster

Here is a talk on ethno diversity that may be of interest to the stable openers . . .
http://www.ted.com/talks/wade_davis_on_endangered_cultures.html

. . . I am not going to be able to practice Buddhism without some inadvertent input from my cultural upbringing and interests. I like aspects of Chinese, Japanese, Tibetan culture. I personally do not require dharma from shamanic sources but I certainly am interested, fascinated and amazed by the life view of various shaman . . . others may need more alignment . . .
Good luck :wave:

FyreShaman

There are several practices which are shared by Buddhists and Shamans, such as mirror divination, for example - Lama Dawa, a Nyingma Ngakpa is famous for it. Do the deities and spirits discriminate between practitioners, I wonder? Mongolia certainly has co-existence of both. I noted recently that there is some DNA evidence of shared ancestry between Native American Indians and Himalayan races - the Dalai Lama also noted similarities between (rain?) dances he saw in the US and those from Tibet, so maybe there has been so much contact across the globe over history that claiming Bonpo or Buddhism or Hinduism practices as 'first' looks a little dubious - there may be some things which developed consecutively, others which each developed concurrently. We can, however, find very ancient evidence of behaviour we may label 'shamanic'. I'm slowly compiling a website, 'Fyre Shaman' ( www.fyreshaman.com ) with info on Shamanism. Here's a link to the work of the late Sarangerel Odigon, one of the most authentic and accessible writers about Shamanism:
http://fyreshaman.com/2013/05/15/mongolian-shamanism-a-course-at-buryatmongol-org/

cal_shep13

I also partake in both Buddhist and shamanic activities, I find that both of them have the same idea of a celestial ocean of energy or "spirit world" which our atmans/souls come from. On the subject of ethnogens I chew a quid of salvia divinorum and meditate with a couple of my friends/sangha every weekend in the forest because I find that it gets rid of the ego(conscious) and allows your atman(subconscious) to exist for a period of time in a state similar to that of nirvana realizing that you do not actually exist and our take on the universe is us trying to understand something which is impossible for our conscious mind to understand. This partially goes against some Buddhist concepts but also greatly allows you to advance and understand the others.

EvenThird

@Jayjay
I regularly incorporate (sober)trance-work, and divination/scrying in my Buddhist practice. I find it very supplemental, especially since I mostly practice Tibetan Buddhism/Vajrayana. I'm quite drawn to those things and it seemingly adds depth to my practice- I've had no conflicts thus far. Then again, I don't take any of it terribly seriously, I don't ever assume I've seen some grand Truth or anything like that. If you would like to talk some more about experiences and such feel free to message me

EvenThird

Sorry, I just realized how old this was...

lobster

EvenThird said:

Sorry, I just realized how old this was...

Shamanism is indeed an olde religion . . . wait . . . you mean the thread . . . oops ⊙﹏⊙

Buddhism grew in the shamanic Hindu religion. Many gods, worship anything and everything as sacred. If attending a Tibetan temple puja with 'music' to frighten away the demons/thoughts, you soon come to terms with 'shamanic influences. Even the double Dorje of monks comes from animal sacrifice weaponry. Those wizard monks are weird and wonderful.

The SGI chanting 'like a galloping horse', that I attended yesterday afternoon, is repetitive, loud and emotionally charged and very similar to repetitive drum or movement trance induction techniques.

However coming out of trance by the temporary use of trance work has its place. Perhaps that possibility can be explored?

:wave:

yagr

Interesting thread for me to come across, especially how old it is. My wife and I are both Native American and live on the reservation. I am well acquainted with my people's shamanic inheritance and do incorporate it into my Buddhist practice.

Personally, I find no conflict between the two; in fact, they seem to complement each other well.

lobster

My post was going to be:
-----

I am well acquainted with my people's shamanic inheritance and do incorporate it into my Buddhist practice.

How?

----

I have very little knowledge/experience of NA culture and suddenly realised this might be a stereotypical insult (maybe even subconsciously). It is not intended that way.

Do you meditate in a sweat lodge? I am just curious and ignorant of what you might do. From someone in the UK who opened my eyes to 'reservation life', I was intrigued but it was outside of my cultural norm.
Is your culture threatened by the Google Age?
http://newbuddhist.com/discussion/8320/native-american-spirituality

yagr

@lobster First of all, you are not obtuse; I get your humor. On to the more serious stuff:

I grew up believing that I had a spirit animal, like many in my tribe. As I have grown to know my spirit animal throughout the years, we've developed a close relationship. As a matter of fact, I have a book at my publishers right now and if he picks it up, the book will be dedicated to my wife and my spirit animal. <-- that close.

While it wasn't always so, I understand my spirit animal to be the primitive brain that we all have. Through communication with my primitive brain, I've learned quite a bit about how my mind works. Too, the primitive brain holds dominion over many aspects of my life. Seeking pleasure/avoiding pain for instance, and fight or flight, etc.

As an example, because it controls the fight or flight response, its finger is on the adrenaline button. If I need extra energy for instance, for something I think is important and the primitive brain could care less about - then because we have a good working relationship, I ask and I get it. A more Buddhist example might be that I want to meditate and it is distracting me...it has a million other things it would rather do or think about, etc. Our conversation might go something like so:

Me: Come on, we really need to meditate.
PB: Don't we have cookies? I like cookies.
Me: No, we're out. Now let's get to it.
PB: We totally have ice cream. Let's have some ice cream!
Me: You know, people who meditate regularly have an aura about them that girls really seem to like.
PB: I want ice cre... what was that last part?
Me: Women find meditators sexy.
PB: Why are you talking; we should be meditating.

And then we have a great session. By appealing to its pleasure seeking quality, it hops on board quickly. Incidentally, such conversations aren't necessary today, but they were once upon a time.

As for our culture being threatened by the google age - our culture was decimated a long time ago. Ask a Native American what their native religion is and you've got a 50-50 chance of hearing 'Catholicism'. My wife's tribe has seven people left that can speak their native language and when our generation goes, there will be none.

lobster

^^^
fascinating . . .

I get the primal animal spirit potential. Brilliant. Say hi from Lobster and Ms Zafu.

I am reminded of the 'Dark Materials' books and film in which the animal spirits in another dimension are real. My cultural 'heritage' is Catholicism, it means I can meditate in Church but to enter with my 'spirit animal', that would be fun . . . a lion would be nice . . . m m m . . . food for thought . . .

footiam

Jayjay said:

I've been Buddhist for about a year and a half now but have been practicing deeper and deeper into Shamanic beliefs for the past half a year or so. How do Shamanic practices and beliefs conflict or coincide with Buddhist practices and beliefs? How does my Shamanism effect my Buddhism and visa versa? Anyone with knowledge on Shamanism I would LOVE the input, opinions are welcome, if further explanation of my practices are needed just ask, thank you very much for the help and input! Wei wu wei

I would like to believe that Shamanism does not bring about suffering to you or to others. Then, it is probably okay, just like some other kind of distractions.

Jayjay

Thank you all for the insightful content on a semi-aged post peace to all, stay on your path