Forgiveness is not an option

music

The Buddha was very clear about this. So was Christ. He commanded his disciples to forgive - it was no request.

There could be a hundred reasons why we cannot forgive someone, and there may not even be one reason as to why we should. Even so, we must forgive. It is good for us, and the person who is forgiven may also change as a result.

But forgiveness is not magic - it does not change black into white, wrong into right. If someone is bullying you now, you can - and you must - defend yourself. With violence, if necessary. This has no bearing on your ability to forgive since the two are not connected in any way - self-defense is a practical action taken to protect the flesh, whereas forgiveness is the medicine for our souls.

So keep forgiving, regardless of how your body may react to circumstances.

kashi

The buddha also said....."Even if bandits were to carve you up savagely, limb by limb, with a two-handled saw, he among you who let his heart get angered even at that would not be doing my bidding."
MN 21

kashi

I do believe in self defense though.

pegembara

"I forgive you for what you have done because you don't know any better but I reserve the right to defend myself and those I love to the best of my ability. Rest assured I will not seek revenge for it serves no purpose."

SillyPutty

I said this in a different thread the other day, but one aspect about forgiveness that I'm always fascinated with is communication. I don't understand why people assume that you have to speak directly to the person in order to forgive them and/or accept forgiveness from them. Is it the more desirable outcome? Sure. Communication is a very healthy and viable option. However, sometimes you cannot open up a line of communication with a person, because the other person doesn't want your forgiveness or to forgive you for that matter. Maybe they are just looking to drag you back into a fight. Maybe they have already moved on and could care less, which would be a rejection of your efforts anyway. So then is it really wise to go offer an olive branch to someone you full well know might just want to manipulate you or cause more drama?

So forgiveness is something that you sometimes have to do in the privacy of your own heart and mind. The people may be confrontational and/or dangerous, and in some instances they may not even be alive anymore to extend that forgiveness to. Sometimes you just have to send out that loving kindness into the universe, and hope that on some ethereal level it was received.

Jimyo

Unconditional forgiveness is one of the most liberating feelings anyone could ever feel in my experience. That's not to say it's easy but very few worthwhile activities are. If it was easy, everybody would do it.

lamaramadingdong

Forgiveness is something we give ourselves, not others.

Glow

Forgiveness sometimes cannot be accomplished with a simple gesture of the mind. Especially in cases of traumatic abuse, violence, or violation, prematurely jumping to forgiveness can perpetuate psychological problems and may not necessarily be skillful at the very beginning. First, a simple commitment to oneself not to harbor ill-will can be liberating. But sometimes, there is grief, fear, or isolation that needs to be processed or addressed before true forgiveness is possible. The mind and heart must be prepared -- brought into unification, with compassion, discernment, and skill -- before forgiveness can be possible without devolving into dangerous self-violation.

It's often easy to get the wrong impression from the suttas, in which time is condensed. You don't get a sense of the amount of time and practice that goes into creating a mind that is capable of offering kindness even to those who would tear you limb from limb. The Buddha addressed that teaching to monks who had devoted their lives to the dhamma -- not to modern lay people whose practice is often cursory or sporadic.

vinlyn

For me, the question has sometimes been not will I forgive, but when will I forgive. And the fact that I forgive someone something does not necessarily mean that "hey, ok, we're all back to normal now". Sometimes forgiveness has been more like, "I forgive you. Now, goodbye, permanently."

For me, forgiveness simply means I wish you no ill will for what you have done for me.

karasti

A lot of the time people who hurt you and who you must forgive to move on, don't even realize or understand they did something wrong. If you suddenly go to someone who hurt you, years later, and say "i forgive you!" it's likely to be taken very badly by some. People get offended when they feel you are forgiving them for something they don't even think is wrong. Sometimes people say horrible things because they honestly believe what they are saying is the truth. Actually verbally telling them you forgive them is just not necessary. Not only that but it can cause more problems if they are not at a point that they understand what they said was hurtful, or they are more concerned with being right than whether they hurt someone or not.

karmablues

From my own experience, I find that when I manage to let go of anger, forgiveness comes naturally without effort. Therefore, I believe the question is not whether we are able to forgive or not, but rather can we let go of our anger? That is where our focus should be.

music

vinlyn said:

For me, the question has sometimes been not will I forgive, but when will I forgive. And the fact that I forgive someone something does not necessarily mean that "hey, ok, we're all back to normal now". Sometimes forgiveness has been more like, "I forgive you. Now, goodbye, permanently."

For me, forgiveness simply means I wish you no ill will for what you have done for me.

That is sort of what I meant. You made it clear with an example. Also, as another poster said, forgiveness is meant to heal us, not them.

lobster

If someone is bullying you now, you can - and you must - defend yourself. With violence, if necessary.

You think your miserable self is worth defending the violence you perpetrate on it? In tai chi chuan, we accept the violence, either absorbing it or dancing it back into a benign reflection (for the advanced).



However this is not Taoism, this is more skilful. You have no defense against yourself. It defeats you, wether you forgive it or not. How are you going to change your tune?

Lionduck

Forgiveness must be addressed in the reality of our daily lives. It is not the same thing as self defense. [Of course, when attacked, use self defense to the level necessary. Besides, self defense is a subject for a different discussion.]

Forgiveness is an act of compassion - You must have the compassion to forgive yourself and to forgive others. When you develop the compassion to forgive yourself, you can build a more creative and positive self. When you develop the compassion to forgive others, you are also creating a more positive society.

A number of years ago, a friend was killed by a police officer. We held a candlelight vigil in front of the police station. We made a point of informing the senior officer who had come outside to observe the vigil that vigil was for both our friend and for the officer involved. Forgiveness is not an act of condoning a given action or actions. It is more in line with the idea that you may hate the act but do not hate the person who committed the act.

When someone does something to you, you may feel anger. If you let the anger control you, you suffer. If you rise above that anger and draw out the compassion to change that anger into concern for the other person such that you are able to forgive him or her, your suffering disappears.

But remember to not beat yourself up if you don't always succeed. Just get back up and start over again and again and again...

Kundo

I am currently trying to learn to forgive myself - for my mistakes, for my anger, for my illness which looks likely to be fatal at some stage, for probably passing it onto my daughter.

But remember to not beat yourself up if you don't always succeed. Just get back up and start over again and again and again...

@Lionduck, wise words, very hard to do - but then again the best advice often is

In metta,
Raven

Beej

@SillyPutty- indeed, i agree. forgiveness isnt a song and dance- its the thing that inspires the song and dance. but it first must take place in your own heart, because otherwise its JUST song and dance. and real forgiveness is liberating. at least, initially!

lobster

I am currently trying to learn to forgive myself - for my mistakes, for my anger, for my illness which looks likely to be fatal at some stage, for probably passing it onto my daughter.

Eh ma ho
How wonderful.

You are forgiveable. The universe wanted you and your daughter to be. You have and are the proof.

Let's party. :clap:

footiam

music said:

The Buddha was very clear about this. So was Christ. He commanded his disciples to forgive - it was no request.

Can't remember reading anywhere that Buddha gives any command. Even when it comes to Precepts, you can break it but you have to shoulder responsibility for your action. Who is Buddha to give commands?