Nagarjuna

rivercane

Has anyone read Nagarjuna? I noticed that his Fundamental Wisdom of the Middle Way is available for a good price for the Kindle edition from Amazon.com

A dharma teacher that I like will often quote from this text and it always sounds very deep; very profound. Is the writing technical or fairly easy to follow?

I've ordered books from Amazon before because the teacher was supposed to be very good and the writing profound but have been disappointed in the past. I'm sorry to say that I had this experience with the work of Longchenpa, who has such respect and good reputation. It just didn't do anything for me but I'm more than ready to admit that it could have just been me.

I guess what I'm looking for is something that could be truly life-changing and I know that's a tall order but I have read dharma books in the past that I feel have transformed by perception of reality and changed my life, although there have only been a few. I think Nagarjuna would appeal to me. I enjoy philosophical works that deal with the very nature of reality.

I also saw that Nagarjuna's Seventy Stanzas: A Buddhist Psychology Of Emptinesswas available for Kindle. Please share any experiences you have had with Nagarjuna's work. Thanks!

riverflow

Nagarjuna can be hard-going at first, but if you can understand the basis for his inquiry--his non-dual logic--it gets easier.

I've tried reading him before, making only a little headway here or there. But Jay Garfield's translation and commentary on the Fundamental Verses is one of the best, which I highly recommend, if you were to delve into Nagarjuna. Garfield explains it quite clearly.

Also, this site is a great resource, based largely on Nagarjuna's teaching on sunyata: http://www.emptinessteachings.com

taiyaki

They are very difficult to access. His Holiness the Dalai Lama has a book called How to see yourself as you really are. That is much more accessable book on emptiness, yet still is extremely profound.

I've been reading buddhahood without meditation. Its one of those books that you read to change your consciousness lmao.

Longchenpa is very difficult to access too.

Theres a saying that the dharma is hidden in plain sight. When our study and practice line up then all these writings will be clearer.

John_Spencer

I find it helps to read Nagarjuna online so you can google stuff as you go.

Stuff like this

Be warned: you will read a few lines of Nagarjuna then google references for 3 hours, reflect and sleep for 21 hours.

Rinse and repeat.

I got my head round it this way.

rivercane

taiyaki said:

They are very difficult to access. His Holiness the Dalai Lama has a book called How to see yourself as you really are. That is much more accessable book on emptiness, yet still is extremely profound.

I was actually thinking of ordering that book and had a feeling that it may be more accessible. Was also considering his Essence of the Heart Sutra.

John_Spencer

rivercane said:

taiyaki said:

They are very difficult to access. His Holiness the Dalai Lama has a book called How to see yourself as you really are. That is much more accessable book on emptiness, yet still is extremely profound.

I was actually thinking of ordering that book and had a feeling that it may be more accessible. Was also considering his Essence of the Heart Sutra.

Accessibility is good.

It's also good to delve into the apparently inaccessible.

riverflow

rivercane said:

taiyaki said:

They are very difficult to access. His Holiness the Dalai Lama has a book called How to see yourself as you really are. That is much more accessable book on emptiness, yet still is extremely profound.

I was actually thinking of ordering that book and had a feeling that it may be more accessible. Was also considering his Essence of the Heart Sutra.

These are both on my "To Read" list also. It would be a help to have at least a basic understanding of emptiness via the Heart Sutra first, which certainly gets to the heart of the matter! Thich Nhat Hanh's very brief commentary is also a great introduction, not very technical.

Jeffrey

Progressive Stages of Meditation on Emptiness, is a relative beginner examination of five types of views on emptiness. You should also have some background in the Lam Rim, I forget the argumentation on why, but the text, PSME, mentions to get some background. The Jewel Ornament of Liberation was written by Milarepa's student Gampopa and it is the Kagyu Lam Rim text.

Pregressive Stages of Meditation on Emptiness is kind of cool in that the pages turn the opposite way from western. Kinda neat.

sova

Try it out. Do lots of walking when you study / meditate Nagarjuna. It's progressively subtler and subtler. There are like 30 some verses ? But the essence is more or less straight off the outset. Really take your time to understand, and persevere. No need to skip ahead if it seems too intractable. Just take it slow and really take time to reflect and if possible go be out in Nature. bests (all of thems)

Enigma

Nagarjuna's work (particularly the Mulamadhyamakakarika and Vigrahavyavartani) uprooted and transplanted, in the profoundest of ways, my understanding of emptiness when I was 18, providing fertile ground for ongoing actualization of the insights from the Prajna Paramita Sutras - the sprouting of dormant seeds. These texts have since transformed my meditation (and life) practice in unfathomable ways every time I revisit them. Highly recommended, but definitely do take your time and be patient - it's a lot to digest!

robot

Another good book to start with is this one.

http://www.amazon.com/Sun-Wisdom-Teachings-Nagarjunas-Fundamental/dp/1570629994

lobster

Theres a saying that the dharma is hidden in plain sight. When our study and practice line up then all these writings will be clearer.

Nagajuna, like me, was taught rasayana by dragons. As an operative alchemist, I have to make gold into earth in order to survive. Never underestimate the magic, power and depth of the dharma. Just take the advice kindly given by others and ignore the crazy guy with claws growing out of his head . . .

One day dragons will speak to you. :screwy:

lobster

Here there be dragons:
http://www.dsbcproject.org/

person

Chandrakirti's Introduction to the Middle Way is a commentary on Nagarjuna's thinking by one of his students. This is the text that Tibetan monks study to understand Nagarjuna. This version has a helpful commentary that you can read along with stanza by stanza to help you understand the reasoning.

Nevermind

taiyaki said:

Longchenpa is very difficult to access.

Like Nagarjuna, you'll get it eventually with continued practice and study.

Florian

I would second the recommendations of Jay Garfield and Khenpo Tsultrim Gyamtso's 'Sun of Wisdom'.

Fundamental Wisdom is very difficult, as is Garfield's book, but the basic logic is simple. He refutes all positive metaphysical positions. That's it. This is really all we need to know about his proof unless we want to actually test its validity for ourselves.

In the same way, all we really need to know about 'western' metaphysics is that it shows that all positive metaphysical positions are logically indefensible, just as Nagarjuna proves. This is the reason why people like Carnap and Russell had such a low opinion of metaphysics. They thought it led nowhere, a dead end, not seeing that it leads straight to Nagarjuna and the Buddha. This was because they did not consider nonduality as a solution, this being too 'mystical' for their tastes or perhaps was unknown to them.

The fact that all extreme metaphysical positions fail would be a 'religious truth' from a certain perspective, but it's demonstrable in logic and clearly is a fact. For an easier to read proof there is also Francis Bradley's metaphysical essay Appearance and Reality.

I did try once try to follow N's argument, but as someone above says, you need two days to think between every two sentences.

Takuan

If you want to start understanding emptiness, I would highly recommend "The Heart Attack Sutra" by Karl Brunnholz. It's written simply enough for anyone to enjoy, but it is extremely profound, in my opinion. My thinking was literally changed while reading the book! The author also speaks about Nagarjuna's philosophy in the intro and first chapter.

I would also highly recommend Mu Soeng's commentary on the Diamond Sutra, which also delves deeply into Nagarjuna's philosophy and Mahayana history. There is also a book called "Nagarjuna and the Philosophy of Openness", which is quite good as well, but I forget the author's name.

After reading those books, then I'd recommend reading some of Nagarjuna's texts. Without sufficient understanding you'll keep going back to the same page saying "Wait... whaaa?" (This is what happened to me! lol)

Florian

Thnaks for the references. 'The Heart Attack Sutra'! What a great title.

sova

Florian said:

Thnaks for the references. 'The Heart Attack Sutra'! What a great title.

Called that because it gave a ton of bhikkshus heart attacks when they heard it. But they're already arhats, so like, you know, happy traveling

rivercane

Thank you all for your feedback. That is a very moving account @Enigma. Just the kind of thing I'm looking for but after going through the feedback here, I don't think I'm quite ready to tackle Nagarjuna head on yet your post makes me determined to work my way toward that goal.

Thank you for your post @Florian where you compare Western philosophy. If I remember correctly, it seems that David Hume had a similiar position as Nargarjuna, and he is one of my favorite philosophers. In particular I like the way that no one could refute his proof for a very long time. In general, I consider Eastern philosophy superior to that of the Western world, and it sounds like it is still impossible to refute Nagarjuna. Again, just the kind of thing I'm looking for.

Also, thanks to @Takuan for recommending The Heart Attack Sutra. I had never heard of this book but after reading the description on Amazon.com I think I will start with this and also order Sun of Wisdom. I had never heard of the followers of Buddha having heart attacks after hearing the sutra and always thought it was called the Heart Sutra because it contained the "heart of wisdom". Shows how much I know!

Thanks again to all who responded.

Florian

Yes, I suppose I ought to read Hume. Others have mentioned him in connection with Nagarjuna. Generally I stick to people who solve problems rather than just struggle with them.

If you look you'll see that almost all philosophers agree with Nagarjuna's logical conclusions. For instance, it is precisely because all positive metaphysical positions are absurd, as N proved, that Russell, Carnap, etc saw metaphysics as a waste of time. Many scientists and philosophers, perhaps almost all of them, either see metaphysics as a waste of time or fail to make any headway with it, and this is because of what N proved. The difference is only that Buddhists have a sensible interpretation of the results of metaphysics, and the only one that works. Without this interpretation metaphysics will appear to be a dead end.

This is what allows Buddhism to go on the offensive against competing views, should they ever want to. Philosophers have no defence against Nagarjuna, since any argument they might make will be an argument against themselves. Worth looking at Kant and Hegel also, who arrive at the same conclusion as N and give the result an equivalent interpretation. Hence Hegel's idea that the universe is a 'spiritual unity'. It's the only possible conclusion of logic. The most significant claim made by Kant, imho, is that both the universe and human psychology begin and end with a phenomenon that is not an instance of a category. That is, he discards all extreme philosophical views.

As it happens, I became more or less convinced of the truth of Buddhist teachings on exactly this basis. No need to meditate if all we want to do is check the logical integrity of the dhamma.