Welcome home! Please contact lincoln@icrontic.com if you have any difficulty logging in or using the site. New registrations must be manually approved which may take several days. Can't log in? Try clearing your browser's cookies.
Hallucinogenics - A 'smash-and-grab on the Transcendental'?
zombiegirlbeating the drum of the lifelessin a dry wastelandVeteran
@John_Spencer I can't speak for lobster so idk if her comments were just meant generally or actually aimed at you, but I see your point.
Perhaps my wording was a bit superfluous so I apologize for that, but the point of the thread is asking for spiritual experiences/insights gained through drug use and the commonality between that and non-drug experiences, is it not? The title of the thread is 'a smash and grab on the transcendental' which seems to imply that if there is a common vein between drug insights and meditation insights... well... which is easier? Obviously, popping a pill is easier than years and years of training. While I think you are being careful not to advocate, the very nature of the thread seems to make that impossible, in my mind.
@John_Spencer I can't speak for lobster so idk if her comments were just meant generally or actually aimed at you, but I see your point.
Perhaps my wording was a bit superfluous so I apologize for that, but the point of the thread is asking for spiritual experiences/insights gained through drug use and the commonality between that and non-drug experiences, is it not? The title of the thread is 'a smash and grab on the transcendental' which seems to imply that if there is a common vein between drug insights and meditation insights... well... which is easier? Obviously, popping a pill is easier than years and years of training. While I think you are being careful not to advocate, the very nature of the thread seems to make that impossible, in my mind.
Thanks @zombiegirl - that explains your heartfelt concerns well.
Yes - I absolutely take your point.
There is a danger in this thread being misinterpreted as saying 'hey - why meditate when we can all take drugs?'.
That's why I felt I had to be firm if anyone suggested that was my drift.
It isn't.
Now that I know you know that - I am reassured.
1
zombiegirlbeating the drum of the lifelessin a dry wastelandVeteran
I'm not trying to be annoying, honest, haha. Just trying to contribute all sides of drug experiences for the lurkers that might not be commenting, if you get my drift.
But I would like to know what you think about my friend's experience on LSD. He spoke of it just as others have, as a profound insight and he absolutely believed that this information was given to him as truth. I felt hesitant to share it because this story was told in confidence and well, I had a really hard time getting away from him. Like I said, it's difficult to deal with a person who believes that YOU exist only for him. How can you tell a person like that "No"? Very scary.
I have a theory that drug experiences are like dreams. I had a dream once that became lucid because I saw my thought processes that were arising BEFORE it would come to fruition in my dream. (I'm talking about dreams from plain 'ol sleep here, btw.) In other words, subtle thoughts were giving rise to actual dream experiences. I believe drug experiences can be similar. When people have a bad trip, it is because they went into the experience with either a negative mindstate or there are negative things happening around them. When people have a good trip, it is likely due to the opposite (good mindstate, good things around them.) So back to my friend, I didn't know him before his experience, however, I do believe him to be a bonafide narcissist, likely a trait that was there before (we have mutual friends that have known him longer). So, perhaps his experience was just an offshoot from views already held? A narcissist having a 'spiritual' drug experience leads him to draw out conclusions already held (that he is the most important person in the world). Someone who leans more towards the compassionate hippie side (not an insult!) might be more likely to experience the complete opposite, (that no one exists independent of anything else) because this is already a previously held notion.
I just don't trust what comes out of my brain when it is functioning under the influence. I've had some grand ideas when I've been drunk before too, when I'm sober again, those ideas aren't so grand anymore. Look at various artists, like Eddie Van Halen and Eminem who insisted they did their best creative work when under the influence of some drug or alcohol. When they got sober, turns out, not only can they still be creative, but the results are better than ever.
If you cannot control your thoughts, your reflexes, your body movements while under the influence of various things, why would someone assume that they can trust what else comes out of their brain under the influence?
Do the people who claim to have had such insights from drugs meditate as well? Do they have anything to compare between the 2 in one person? (in the studies others have mentioned, I mean) Perhaps if they set aside the drugs and did some real brain work they would have even more amazing insights. Anything we can accomplish by false means we can accomplish without them, as well. There are people who practice various energy and healing techniques, but really once you train yourself you can do that healing just with your mind, you don't have to tap your face and utilize pressure points anymore, because your mind can do it for you. So why bother putting something unhealthy for you (especially when you are buying it from someone else) into your body and your mind to accomplish a result when you can do it without it?
For myself, the path, the process, is part of the gift. If I could teleport instead of driving across the midwest on vacation, I still wouldn't, because I'd miss the journey along the way. I guess I view this the same way. Even if someone could guarantee it was safe and I wouldn't get in trouble in any way, I still would not use drugs to gain insight because I prefer the journey to discover it this way. For me, insight usually arises from something. It might be a spontaneous thought or realization, but it usually comes as a result of a problem or another thought process. I enjoy that process and that problem solving process. I wouldn't want to skip it just to arrive at the answer. It would lose something along the way.
I'm not trying to be annoying, honest, haha. Just trying to contribute all sides of drug experiences for the lurkers that might not be commenting, if you get my drift.
But I would like to know what you think about my friend's experience on LSD. He spoke of it just as others have, as a profound insight and he absolutely believed that this information was given to him as truth. I felt hesitant to share it because this story was told in confidence and well, I had a really hard time getting away from him. Like I said, it's difficult to deal with a person who believes that YOU exist only for him. How can you tell a person like that "No"? Very scary.
What do you think?
@zombiegirl - you are one of the LEAST annoying posters I can imagine!
(..and I take your point about 'lurkers'.)
Re: your friend on LSD:
His experience is close to the philosophical position of solipism
However, your friend's experience was just that, not a clever philosophical position but an personal and vivid experience .
I maintain that what he encountered was 'reality' - but he couldn't process it fully.
So, initially, (on LSD), he had a powerful experience of ALL experience being subjective (which it is).
From that comes the conclusion that 'other' cannot be proven to exist outside of mind (which it can't).
...and from that comes the realisation that the whole world is a construct of your mind (which it is).
This is an easy intellectual position to take but a shattering thing to experience.
It is what your friend concludes from this experience that is unfortunate for him and unsettling for you - that you exist only for his purposes.
Clearly untrue and unhelpful.
Interestingly, schizophrenics and autistic individuals seem to share (to some extent) your friends experience of the world (which may be why autistic children struggle to communicate. Not because they can't - but they don't really see others as 'real' in the same way.)
Without the emotional positivity needed to absorb and integrate such insights one can be left very confused and disorientated.
Regarding solipsism, we are the awareness of the world, but each from our unique perspective or mandala.
Lama Shenpen Hookham says in her course book: "
Think of yourself, heart, mind, body and environment, including all your relationships as a mandala extending out from the essence of your being to the furthest reaches of the Universe, the past and the future. Those connections are going to shift around, come closer or slip further away, nonetheless the connections remain inescapably your connections.
Your personal mandala consists of a whole hierarchy and range of mandalas and in some sense, the whole of everything is our own personal mandala, because somehow we are each a unique view point connecting to the whole of everything from that particular point of view
True though all this may be, when we try to experience a past moment, we cannot, because it has gone. Again, if we try to experience a future moment we cannot, because it has not come. So how can there be any connections through time?
As someone who has taken LSD maybe 30 times and mushrooms about a dozen and deliberately induced altered mind states with other methods (sleep and food deprivation) and had insights from spiritual practice I can say from experience:
Hallucinations, mental illness and perceptual alteration leads to insight. The insight is that they are not comparable to spiritual insight.
If this is in some way unclear, then perhaps we can discuss other delusions too? However there is little point in following dead ends. If you wish to practice magical thinking, find a shaman.
Perhaps hallucinations are an 'octave' of insight more related to the body than spirit? I mean that relatively. After all a drug seems to be a bit of a hammer and tongs approach to affect the body. Whereas the body can be normal and not involved or concentrated dispassionate during a spiritual experience of the 'higher octave' insight.
Actually most autistic people struggle to communicate because the connections in their brain are lacking in the part of the brain that forms speech into words that come out of our mouths. They have thoughts they cannot make come out in speech, which is why they scream out in tantrums so often. When given a medium that works for them, they can communicate. There are autistics, for example, who can type quite well even though they cannot talk much. They don't understand complex opposing emotions and the grey areas of life so well, but they don't exactly thing that someone else exists only for them. I see very little comparison to autistic people and zombiegirl's story. I realize this is off topic I just feel the need to mention it because my son is autistic and frequently understood.
Hi @karasti - I knew when I was writing the above that someone on this list had a son who was autistic but I couldn't remember who it was...
You are clearly much more of an expert than me in this - I came across this idea about theory of mind from a friend who works as a carer for a child with autism.
The research suggesting that children with autism do not employ a 'theory of mind' (ie have difficulty assigning mental states to other) was done in 1985 and has proved to be powerfully predictive of the behaviour seen in autistic individuals.
As someone who has taken LSD maybe 30 times and mushrooms about a dozen and deliberately induced altered mind states with other methods (sleep and food deprivation) and had insights from spiritual practice I can say from experience:
Hallucinations, mental illness and perceptual alteration leads to insight. The insight is that they are not comparable to spiritual insight.
If this is in some way unclear, then perhaps we can discuss other delusions too? However there is little point in following dead ends. If you wish to practice magical thinking, find a shaman.
Actually most autistic people struggle to communicate because the connections in their brain are lacking in the part of the brain that forms speech into words that come out of our mouths. They have thoughts they cannot make come out in speech, which is why they scream out in tantrums so often. When given a medium that works for them, they can communicate. There are autistics, for example, who can type quite well even though they cannot talk much.
@karasti - that brings this to mind (as an example):
@riverflow, yes! What an amazing example, thanks for sharing that.
@John_Spencer Yes, I find that to be quite true with my son. He is high functioning, so while he struggles in areas, he has a large capacity to learn as he goes. Some things take him a long time, and it's obvious in many cases that he learned by example and will go through the motions (mostly social interaction) but does not truly understand why such things are necessary. He is very much like Sheldon Cooper, lol.
Facts and figures are easy for him, like so many other autistics, his thoughts come in pictures instead of words so he excels at complex geometry and physics and other such things. But the other day he had to write a 3 page paper on an abstract question that required him to read a book and understand the character development throughout the book and write about what he thought the characters were thinking and feeling. It took us 6 hours to do one page.
He has some challenges in school, but with allotments he does quite well. He attends normal classes and will be going to college in a couple years. But as far as the ability to put himself in another person's shoes, yes, he absolutely lacks the ability to understand that. His ability to understand the intention behind things has improved. It is one reason I allow him to be in so many social activities, because that activity stimulates him to learn and it has helped immensely. He is in 3 sports, 3 youth groups, yearbook and usually does a play every year. I don't know if you have ever read anything by Temple Grandin, but she does an amazing job explaining the thought processes of autistics. Her books gave me a lot of insight into my son and helped me communicate with him more effectively. He cannot see the world from my point of view. But I can learn, somewhat, how to see it from his point of view. Her books are amazing, I highly recommend them even if a person isn't all that interested in autism. Most likely, people we know and work with have autistic traits and learning how to work with them benefits everyone. We have been blessed that my son's teachers, coaches, group leaders and his boss have taken an interesting in learning how he thinks so they can interact with him more meaningfully.
His ability to infer is really lacking as well, as it discusses in the article. When he was about 12, he got a BB gun. When we went over the rules, I covered a million and one things he could not shoot his gun at, ever. Later on he told me he had shot his gun at the water tower. When I asked why, the answer was because I hadn't told him not to. We covered people, animals, houses, abandoned buildings, any type of vehicle, moving or not, playground equipment toys and so on. But because I didn't say water tower, he could not infer to include that in all the things we had talked about. He follows the rules to a T. He will not break them intentionally, EVER. But the rules have to be very, very specific because he cannot extrapolate information from one rule to the next. If I tell him not to walk on the ice on the lake, he won't understand that doesn't mean to not walk on the ice on the river as well.
Anyhow I don't want to hijack the thread, lol. I'm more than willing to share in messages if you have more questions or want to talk about it further. It's a fascinating life, that of an autistic.
Hey @karasti - you sound like you are a great Mum.
I also find this stuff fascinating.
I only read about Theory of Mind recently and I had never considered the world from your son's perspective until then. I hadn't even realised that I had a 'theory of mind.'
I think we can find out so much about humanity by trying to understand other people's perspectives, especially when they seem so different from ours.
"He cannot see the world from my point of view. But I can learn, somewhat, how to see it from his point of view." - That's a great spiritual practice right there.
It must be hard work for you sometimes but I suspect you also feel really privileged to be your son's mother too.
I laughed at the Sheldon Cooper reference - Bazinga!
P.S. I will have a look at Temple Grandin, thanks....
@John_Spencer thanks for your comments. Really, I am blessed to be his mom. When he was really young, it was really difficult because I couldn't communicate with him, and we didn't know why. He was born in 1996, but he didn't exhibit the signs of full autism so it took a long time to diagnose him. He had a lot of things going on that we now know a lot of autistic people have. It's nice to have resources and online communities now! It's been quite an adventure raising him, I've learned a lot in sharing a life with him. As he's gotten older, he's turned out to be quite an amazing young man.
To keep it more on topic, lol, his dad was also asperger's/HF autistic. He was not diagnosed until he was 30, and we had been a couple for about 10 years by that point. Our son was about...6 years old and as he got older we noticed he shared a lot of traits with his dad, so we knew where to start looking at that point. His dad though, struggling with all the things he did and living in a world he didn't understand and that did not understand him, ended up turning to drugs to manage. He was highly intelligent and did a lot of research and doctor shopping to get what he wanted. I still don't know if he had the problems he got treated for, or if he lied, or if he basically made himself ill to get the medications he did. He didn't want to get in trouble for illegal drugs, so, he was smart enough to fool the doctors into giving him prescriptions for what he wanted. He was always interested in pharmacology and we had a lot of discussions about such topics as this, consciousness and drugs and he was a very strong believer in obtaining insight via such means.
In the end, he became addicted to the drugs he sought and it killed him, sadly. Even though I know I can't control my kids any more than I can control the weather, I've spent a lot of nights worrying about whether my son will follow in his dad's footsteps. So we work really hard as a family to direct him to healthy things, to recognize his strengths and weaknesses and how to manage them without resorting to drugs to feel ok. He understands the risks he faces having a dad who was an addict (he was also an alcoholic), so hopefully he does not go down that road.
I realize self medicating isn't exactly what we are discussing here so I'm not sure why I mentioned it, lol. It is a very interesting thing to me that so many highly intelligent people seem to end up on drugs of some sort to attempt to live in a world that is so different from them. My experience with my ex probably clouds my ability to see the topic from an objective point of view. My ex was a great artist and musician, but again, one who thought he did his beset work while drunk or high, that being in that state put him somewhere that allowed him to be in touch with something he couldn't get in touch with otherwise. I guess, for me, that is where this discussion takes me. That yes, some drugs might allow a short cut, but is it worth the risk?
It seems to me sometimes that for all our searching and reading and speculating you have, in your son, a perfect practice for generosity and compassion and wisdom and there is just NO WAY you son will not be positively affected by your love for him and your curiosity regarding his experience.
For you son's father, I suspect, that this world was difficult for him.
You sum it up so well when you say: "It is a very interesting thing to me that so many highly intelligent people seem to end up on drugs of some sort to attempt to live in a world that is so different from them....His dad though, struggling with all the things he did and living in a world he didn't understand and that did not understand him, ended up turning to drugs to manage."
It's painful isn't it?
I like the fact you call your son a 'young man,' he needs to become that and it must be hard sometimes without a father figure for him. Does he have any older male influences in his life?
It seems to me that you have lived an extraordinary life so far and I am fiercely proud that we have women like you looking after our children.
P.S. Clearly in the case of your son's father, taking drugs wasn't worth the risk. You son deserves a Dad.
I hope, one day, we will live in world where people like your son (and his Dad) don't feel they live in a world that doesn't understand them.
@John_Spencer I was lucky in that shortly before my ex entirely threw his life away, (several months after we parted ways) I met someone who is now the step dad to my son (and his brother). So, they both still miss their biological dad, mishaps and all, but they do have an active role model in their life and home. On top of that, my dad is very involved with them as well. My eldest (the autistic one) has an amazing male youth group leader in his life and several uncles as well, and 2 step grandpas. The saying "it takes a village to raise a child" might be a bit cliched, but it's totally true. Every person in our lives brings another gift to my son (and to the rest of us, too, we have 3 sons).
So on one hand, I see the person he is becoming and I wish his dad were here to see it, because he's be amazed and proud. But on the other hand, if his dad were still in his life, our lives would likely not be the same. Caleb is 16.5 now. His dad died at age 35 (4 years ago in June). The first time that my ex tried illicit drugs, he was 16. So far, my son has beat that rap and has far more interest in beating his personal records in skiing and track than in trying drugs. It still makes me sad that Eric (son's dad) died so young, and before seeing his sons grow up. But perhaps his life was a lesson they needed to learn to avoid his mistakes.
I finally truly stopped believing in God (after forty years of trying to become an atheist - which is not as easy as most people seem to think) thanks to a non-ordinary experience one summer evening out under the stars. Suddenly I saw that He was ad hoc. And not just this, but that the truth could be 'bigger' and 'better' than God. At the time I knew precisely nothing about Buddhism or more generally mysticism, or, in hindsight, any religion at all.
And whatever anybody else thinks about this, I know that much later drugs helped me get to Buddhism and opened my mind to new possibilties. Of course this is not a recommendation. But let's at least concede that drugs have been used since the dawn of time to encourage the opening of the mind to reality. But very carefully, never regularly, and never socially.
As John says, the interesting question is not whether we should do drugs, of course not, but what it says about consciousness that drugs can have these effects.
Zen teacher Brad Warner has an interesting take on the subject.
Of course he is talking entirely in a Buddhist context of finding "the truth" and "getting enlightenment". Not really about treating mental illness, etc.
Aren't "getting enlightenment" and "treating mental illness" the same thing?
Zen teacher Brad Warner has an interesting take on the subject.
Of course he is talking entirely in a Buddhist context of finding "the truth" and "getting enlightenment". Not really about treating mental illness, etc.
Aren't "getting enlightenment" and "treating mental illness" the same thing?
In the context of Buddhism and psychology, no. There are plenty of people who have been cured of their depression or PTSD, but they haven't attained enlightenment. Psychologists don't see "the whole of dukkha" as a mental illness and they don't even try to treat it. They only address and treat specific, neurotic, "non-normal" forms of it. If you experience dukkha in a "normal" fashion, then according to them, you are perfectly healthy. The enlightenment of Buddhism goes far beyond what any psychologist or psychiatrist would be concerned about.
Zen teacher Brad Warner has an interesting take on the subject.
Of course he is talking entirely in a Buddhist context of finding "the truth" and "getting enlightenment". Not really about treating mental illness, etc.
Aren't "getting enlightenment" and "treating mental illness" the same thing?
In the context of Buddhism and psychology, no. There are plenty of people who have been cured of their depression or PTSD, but they haven't attained enlightenment. Psychologists don't see "the whole of dukkha" as a mental illness and they don't even try to treat it. They only address and treat specific, neurotic, "non-normal" forms of it. If you experience dukkha in a "normal" fashion, then according to them, you are perfectly healthy. The enlightenment of Buddhism goes far beyond what any psychologist or psychiatrist would be concerned about.
"The enlightenment of Buddhism goes far beyond what any psychologist or psychiatrist would be concerned about." - Quite.
What I mean is that, if deluded, we are ill.
Hence we suffer.
The Dharma is medicine.
Enlightenment is the end of mental 'illness'' in this sense.
Yes, in that sense it is. I was referring to the "modern day psychology" definition of "mental illness" because modern day psychologists are the ones doing these experiments with psychedelics to help people with depression, PTSD, etc., which is great I think. However, no one involved is claiming that these people will get enlightenment, but only that they will be helped with their depression, ptsd, etc.
Comments
Perhaps my wording was a bit superfluous so I apologize for that, but the point of the thread is asking for spiritual experiences/insights gained through drug use and the commonality between that and non-drug experiences, is it not? The title of the thread is 'a smash and grab on the transcendental' which seems to imply that if there is a common vein between drug insights and meditation insights... well... which is easier? Obviously, popping a pill is easier than years and years of training. While I think you are being careful not to advocate, the very nature of the thread seems to make that impossible, in my mind.
Yes - I absolutely take your point.
There is a danger in this thread being misinterpreted as saying 'hey - why meditate when we can all take drugs?'.
That's why I felt I had to be firm if anyone suggested that was my drift.
It isn't.
Now that I know you know that - I am reassured.
But I would like to know what you think about my friend's experience on LSD. He spoke of it just as others have, as a profound insight and he absolutely believed that this information was given to him as truth. I felt hesitant to share it because this story was told in confidence and well, I had a really hard time getting away from him. Like I said, it's difficult to deal with a person who believes that YOU exist only for him. How can you tell a person like that "No"? Very scary.
I have a theory that drug experiences are like dreams. I had a dream once that became lucid because I saw my thought processes that were arising BEFORE it would come to fruition in my dream. (I'm talking about dreams from plain 'ol sleep here, btw.) In other words, subtle thoughts were giving rise to actual dream experiences. I believe drug experiences can be similar. When people have a bad trip, it is because they went into the experience with either a negative mindstate or there are negative things happening around them. When people have a good trip, it is likely due to the opposite (good mindstate, good things around them.) So back to my friend, I didn't know him before his experience, however, I do believe him to be a bonafide narcissist, likely a trait that was there before (we have mutual friends that have known him longer). So, perhaps his experience was just an offshoot from views already held? A narcissist having a 'spiritual' drug experience leads him to draw out conclusions already held (that he is the most important person in the world). Someone who leans more towards the compassionate hippie side (not an insult!) might be more likely to experience the complete opposite, (that no one exists independent of anything else) because this is already a previously held notion.
What do you think?
If you cannot control your thoughts, your reflexes, your body movements while under the influence of various things, why would someone assume that they can trust what else comes out of their brain under the influence?
Do the people who claim to have had such insights from drugs meditate as well? Do they have anything to compare between the 2 in one person? (in the studies others have mentioned, I mean) Perhaps if they set aside the drugs and did some real brain work they would have even more amazing insights. Anything we can accomplish by false means we can accomplish without them, as well. There are people who practice various energy and healing techniques, but really once you train yourself you can do that healing just with your mind, you don't have to tap your face and utilize pressure points anymore, because your mind can do it for you. So why bother putting something unhealthy for you (especially when you are buying it from someone else) into your body and your mind to accomplish a result when you can do it without it?
For myself, the path, the process, is part of the gift. If I could teleport instead of driving across the midwest on vacation, I still wouldn't, because I'd miss the journey along the way. I guess I view this the same way. Even if someone could guarantee it was safe and I wouldn't get in trouble in any way, I still would not use drugs to gain insight because I prefer the journey to discover it this way. For me, insight usually arises from something. It might be a spontaneous thought or realization, but it usually comes as a result of a problem or another thought process. I enjoy that process and that problem solving process. I wouldn't want to skip it just to arrive at the answer. It would lose something along the way.
(..and I take your point about 'lurkers'.)
Re: your friend on LSD:
His experience is close to the philosophical position of solipism
However, your friend's experience was just that, not a clever philosophical position but an personal and vivid experience .
I maintain that what he encountered was 'reality' - but he couldn't process it fully.
So, initially, (on LSD), he had a powerful experience of ALL experience being subjective (which it is).
From that comes the conclusion that 'other' cannot be proven to exist outside of mind (which it can't).
...and from that comes the realisation that the whole world is a construct of your mind (which it is).
This is an easy intellectual position to take but a shattering thing to experience.
It is what your friend concludes from this experience that is unfortunate for him and unsettling for you - that you exist only for his purposes.
Clearly untrue and unhelpful.
Interestingly, schizophrenics and autistic individuals seem to share (to some extent) your friends experience of the world (which may be why autistic children struggle to communicate. Not because they can't - but they don't really see others as 'real' in the same way.)
Without the emotional positivity needed to absorb and integrate such insights one can be left very confused and disorientated.
But they are real insights, none the less.
Does that make sense?
Lama Shenpen Hookham says in her course book:
"
Hallucinations, mental illness and perceptual alteration leads to insight.
The insight is that they are not comparable to spiritual insight.
If this is in some way unclear, then perhaps we can discuss other delusions too? However there is little point in following dead ends. If you wish to practice magical thinking, find a shaman.
You are clearly much more of an expert than me in this - I came across this idea about theory of mind from a friend who works as a carer for a child with autism.
The research suggesting that children with autism do not employ a 'theory of mind'
(ie have difficulty assigning mental states to other) was done in 1985 and has proved to be powerfully predictive of the behaviour seen in autistic individuals.
The test used to assess the ability to form a theory of mind is called the 'Sally-Anne False Belief Test'
You can Google Theory of Mind and autism and read loads about it.
I would be really interested to know what sense you make of it in relation to your son - does it seem to relate?
You describe a thing called 'insight' and another thing called 'spiritual insight'.
Can you please tell me what the difference is?
Cheers
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=451214254956059
@John_Spencer Yes, I find that to be quite true with my son. He is high functioning, so while he struggles in areas, he has a large capacity to learn as he goes. Some things take him a long time, and it's obvious in many cases that he learned by example and will go through the motions (mostly social interaction) but does not truly understand why such things are necessary. He is very much like Sheldon Cooper, lol.
Facts and figures are easy for him, like so many other autistics, his thoughts come in pictures instead of words so he excels at complex geometry and physics and other such things. But the other day he had to write a 3 page paper on an abstract question that required him to read a book and understand the character development throughout the book and write about what he thought the characters were thinking and feeling. It took us 6 hours to do one page.
He has some challenges in school, but with allotments he does quite well. He attends normal classes and will be going to college in a couple years. But as far as the ability to put himself in another person's shoes, yes, he absolutely lacks the ability to understand that. His ability to understand the intention behind things has improved. It is one reason I allow him to be in so many social activities, because that activity stimulates him to learn and it has helped immensely. He is in 3 sports, 3 youth groups, yearbook and usually does a play every year. I don't know if you have ever read anything by Temple Grandin, but she does an amazing job explaining the thought processes of autistics. Her books gave me a lot of insight into my son and helped me communicate with him more effectively. He cannot see the world from my point of view. But I can learn, somewhat, how to see it from his point of view. Her books are amazing, I highly recommend them even if a person isn't all that interested in autism. Most likely, people we know and work with have autistic traits and learning how to work with them benefits everyone. We have been blessed that my son's teachers, coaches, group leaders and his boss have taken an interesting in learning how he thinks so they can interact with him more meaningfully.
His ability to infer is really lacking as well, as it discusses in the article. When he was about 12, he got a BB gun. When we went over the rules, I covered a million and one things he could not shoot his gun at, ever. Later on he told me he had shot his gun at the water tower. When I asked why, the answer was because I hadn't told him not to. We covered people, animals, houses, abandoned buildings, any type of vehicle, moving or not, playground equipment toys and so on. But because I didn't say water tower, he could not infer to include that in all the things we had talked about. He follows the rules to a T. He will not break them intentionally, EVER. But the rules have to be very, very specific because he cannot extrapolate information from one rule to the next. If I tell him not to walk on the ice on the lake, he won't understand that doesn't mean to not walk on the ice on the river as well.
Anyhow I don't want to hijack the thread, lol. I'm more than willing to share in messages if you have more questions or want to talk about it further. It's a fascinating life, that of an autistic.
I also find this stuff fascinating.
I only read about Theory of Mind recently and I had never considered the world from your son's perspective until then. I hadn't even realised that I had a 'theory of mind.'
I think we can find out so much about humanity by trying to understand other people's perspectives, especially when they seem so different from ours.
"He cannot see the world from my point of view. But I can learn, somewhat, how to see it from his point of view." - That's a great spiritual practice right there.
It must be hard work for you sometimes but I suspect you also feel really privileged to be your son's mother too.
I laughed at the Sheldon Cooper reference - Bazinga!
P.S. I will have a look at Temple Grandin, thanks....
To keep it more on topic, lol, his dad was also asperger's/HF autistic. He was not diagnosed until he was 30, and we had been a couple for about 10 years by that point. Our son was about...6 years old and as he got older we noticed he shared a lot of traits with his dad, so we knew where to start looking at that point. His dad though, struggling with all the things he did and living in a world he didn't understand and that did not understand him, ended up turning to drugs to manage. He was highly intelligent and did a lot of research and doctor shopping to get what he wanted. I still don't know if he had the problems he got treated for, or if he lied, or if he basically made himself ill to get the medications he did. He didn't want to get in trouble for illegal drugs, so, he was smart enough to fool the doctors into giving him prescriptions for what he wanted. He was always interested in pharmacology and we had a lot of discussions about such topics as this, consciousness and drugs and he was a very strong believer in obtaining insight via such means.
In the end, he became addicted to the drugs he sought and it killed him, sadly. Even though I know I can't control my kids any more than I can control the weather, I've spent a lot of nights worrying about whether my son will follow in his dad's footsteps. So we work really hard as a family to direct him to healthy things, to recognize his strengths and weaknesses and how to manage them without resorting to drugs to feel ok. He understands the risks he faces having a dad who was an addict (he was also an alcoholic), so hopefully he does not go down that road.
I realize self medicating isn't exactly what we are discussing here so I'm not sure why I mentioned it, lol. It is a very interesting thing to me that so many highly intelligent people seem to end up on drugs of some sort to attempt to live in a world that is so different from them. My experience with my ex probably clouds my ability to see the topic from an objective point of view. My ex was a great artist and musician, but again, one who thought he did his beset work while drunk or high, that being in that state put him somewhere that allowed him to be in touch with something he couldn't get in touch with otherwise. I guess, for me, that is where this discussion takes me. That yes, some drugs might allow a short cut, but is it worth the risk?
It seems to me sometimes that for all our searching and reading and speculating you have, in your son, a perfect practice for generosity and compassion and wisdom and there is just NO WAY you son will not be positively affected by your love for him and your curiosity regarding his experience.
For you son's father, I suspect, that this world was difficult for him.
You sum it up so well when you say: "It is a very interesting thing to me that so many highly intelligent people seem to end up on drugs of some sort to attempt to live in a world that is so different from them....His dad though, struggling with all the things he did and living in a world he didn't understand and that did not understand him, ended up turning to drugs to manage."
It's painful isn't it?
I like the fact you call your son a 'young man,' he needs to become that and it must be hard sometimes without a father figure for him. Does he have any older male influences in his life?
It seems to me that you have lived an extraordinary life so far and I am fiercely proud that we have women like you looking after our children.
P.S. Clearly in the case of your son's father, taking drugs wasn't worth the risk. You son deserves a Dad.
I hope, one day, we will live in world where people like your son (and his Dad) don't feel they live in a world that doesn't understand them.
Bless you x
Spiritual insights wear better.
With insight, without distortion but with clarity you find answers to your own question. With intoxication nothing is clear.
So on one hand, I see the person he is becoming and I wish his dad were here to see it, because he's be amazed and proud. But on the other hand, if his dad were still in his life, our lives would likely not be the same. Caleb is 16.5 now. His dad died at age 35 (4 years ago in June). The first time that my ex tried illicit drugs, he was 16. So far, my son has beat that rap and has far more interest in beating his personal records in skiing and track than in trying drugs. It still makes me sad that Eric (son's dad) died so young, and before seeing his sons grow up. But perhaps his life was a lesson they needed to learn to avoid his mistakes.
Ahhh... that explains it. You and I have a different definition of insight.
I finally truly stopped believing in God (after forty years of trying to become an atheist - which is not as easy as most people seem to think) thanks to a non-ordinary experience one summer evening out under the stars. Suddenly I saw that He was ad hoc. And not just this, but that the truth could be 'bigger' and 'better' than God. At the time I knew precisely nothing about Buddhism or more generally mysticism, or, in hindsight, any religion at all.
And whatever anybody else thinks about this, I know that much later drugs helped me get to Buddhism and opened my mind to new possibilties. Of course this is not a recommendation. But let's at least concede that drugs have been used since the dawn of time to encourage the opening of the mind to reality. But very carefully, never regularly, and never socially.
As John says, the interesting question is not whether we should do drugs, of course not, but what it says about consciousness that drugs can have these effects.
What I mean is that, if deluded, we are ill.
Hence we suffer.
The Dharma is medicine.
Enlightenment is the end of mental 'illness'' in this sense.