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mynameisuntz
Explorer
I am reading Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind by Shunryu Suzuki, and wanted some perspective on one portion of it:
I understand much of Buddhism is difficult to express in words, and this might be one of those instances, but just trying to see what others think. Thank you!
But the purpose of studying Buddhism is to study ourselves and to forget ourselves. When we forget ourselves, we actually are the true activity of the big existence, or reality itself. When we realize this fact, there is no problem whatsoever in this world, and we can enjoy our life without feeling any difficulties.Conceptually I understand this statement, but I am curious about the bolded portion and how to fully make sense of it and apply it. Specifically, where does the suffering of others come into play here? Where does empathy come into play if we are acknowledging there is no problem in this world?
I understand much of Buddhism is difficult to express in words, and this might be one of those instances, but just trying to see what others think. Thank you!
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He means that it's possible to see and respond to the world as it is without fighting against the perception of it. It turns out that the way of living he's pointing to doesn't preclude working to improve the world. In fact, in a lot of ways the efforts from that way of living are more efficient and effective. But the things which get improved aren't problems to fight with.
Empathy means understanding how another sees the world. That doesn't mean you see it their way. But I also don't mean by that that you know another person's upset and don't give a shit because it's actually not a problem from your perspective. It's more that there is a focus on what will lead to a positive result rather than on fostering a perception that the situation is bad.
But perhaps you are capable of noticing as well: Where is the rest of the world, your friends, neighbors, lovers, enemies, beliefs, explanations, etc. when you sneeze or become fully involved in pounding a nail? The moment is just the moment, isn't it? sneezing or pounding? It's not as if anything were missing ... it just doesn't happen to be in play at the moment.
Moments of sneezing, moments of pounding, moments of empathy, moments of enmity ... isn't that the way things actually happen? No-problem moments come and go, even when they are problem moments.
Of course if you try to turn all this into a philosophy or religion or some other neatly-wrapped Christmas present, it doesn't work and all sorts of contradictions and paradoxes and other thorns poke and prickle. Who ever tried to make a philosophy out of a sneeze, much less succeeded? Or a kiss? Or pounding a nail? Or twirling a hula hoop? Or trying to 'understand' Buddhism? Or giving your neighbor a hand?
The moment needs nothing from you. What Buddhist practice does is to make what was inescapable in the first place less of a prison. Mynameisuntz knows how to sneeze or kiss or philosophize or play the empathetic friend ... of course s/he does. So ... go ahead and also ....
Practice whatever practice you choose. See what happens. It's just for the moment, isn't it?
@fivebells - I have read a few books as it, though I suppose this one feels a bit more abstract than others. Perhaps this was a greater leap in "skill level" than anticipated! Are there other texts you might suggest?
The last line of your post resonates.
I think when you realize the first part the second part comes naturally. We all have moments where we forget ourselves even if we analyzed our 'life' we would have to say that there are problems within the context of 'life', but not in the context of 'big existence'. Suzuki often talks about big mind? Doesn't he? I haven't read that in some time, but when I did read it I just took on vibes because I didn't have time or basis in other clear messages from the dharma so to scrutinize Suzuki. I just took it all on faith and took the vibes. It was easy to have faith because I was just starting with a mental illness and I liked the vibes of Buddhism. So I got on the raft. So then a meditation practice. Here I am. :hiding:
Again, thank you all for the input. I am trying to work some of the readings out myself and you are all giving me food for thought.
Lol sit zazen and expect nothing. Then when mind/body drops into suchness you will actualize the compassionate activity of the Buddhas.
Buddhism acknowledges there is suffering, so how does that coincide with the concept that there are no problems? Because the suffering stems from misconceptions and illusions about the nature of ourselves and the universe? What of suffering from things mentioned earlier in this post, like rape?
problems of world (or Samsara) are there, will be there in Samsara, because it is world or Samsara or conditioned phenomena - but the problems which affect us directly are the major problems which hit us, but this is due to the concept of 'I' and the feelings of my and mine, which grow along with it - this 'I' is due to ignorance - the removal of ignorance is the goal towards which all spiritual practices strive. once this ignorance is replaced with wisdom, 'I' goes away and things appear 'just as they are'. But this removing of ignorance cannot be achieved through only reading and understanding, rather this removing of ignorance can only happen in direct experience in meditation, which needs the support of ethical behaviour.
I feel I have read much talking about how suffering exists, and how the suffering of one causes suffering for others, and so on - how is that reconciled with the notion that forgetting oneself means there is no problem whatsoever in this world?
@mynameisuntz - You say that suffering exists. This seems to be an error. It would exist in a way, but in another way it wouldn't. Perhaps one might say that you will think it exists for as long as you think you do. But there is the path to the seeing that it doesn't, and that neither do you.
When we forget ourselves means when we have no sense of separate existence. We know that everything is connected to the 'big existence' aka the Dhamma. If you can see like this, no 'you' is there to suffer or experience problems. So suffering doesn't hit you. This is already addressed by others.
But from another point of view suffering is there whether or not we have a sense of self or not. A lot of suffering is caused by having a sense of self, but not all. This is true for us, but indeed there is the suffering of others also. So to say the world will be without problems is not true from that perspective. "Everything is burning" is what the Buddha said in a sutta, that's quite the opposite from "there are no problems in the world".
So from argumentation it can be both true and false and I understand your confusion. It is often in terms of concepts that we can approach things from multiple angles. For example, some things that teachers mainly intend to be an inspiration to practice can be taken as if they reveal some universal truth. I think that's the case here, I think Suzuki was trying to inspire us. Because the part "we can enjoy our life without feeling any difficulties" of course is also not really true, because if anything one day we die and that won't be enjoyable. When the Buddha was sick before he died, I think he also wouldn't have said it was enjoyable, or without difficulties. He said sickness is suffering.
With metta,
Sabre
@fivebells - It does, though this part: "It's more that there is a focus on what will lead to a positive result rather than on fostering a perception that the situation is bad." - to me that implies that there must be an acknowledgment of something being wrong, or off.
@Sabre - I understand we ourselves may not be suffering "personally," but what about the suffering of others? I feel I have read Buddhist writers talk about the notion that the suffering of others is our suffering, too. That this is the interconnectedness of humanity; is this true?
The second part of your message seems to be mostly what I am aiming to understand: what about the suffering of others? Does the suffering of others exist? From my understanding, that might fall under the first of the four noble truths, no? As such, how can we say there are no problems in the world? So long as suffering exists, aren't there "problems" (which maybe we can just use interchangeably with "suffering" for the sake of this post?)
@pegembara - that statement to me implies that there are problems in the world though, no? Does the suffering of others have any indication on our own suffering? Or are these independent?
Awakening for a person ends the suffering for that awakened person, but not for others - others will still continue to suffer based on their ignorance. the suffering of other persons will not make the awakened person to suffer, because the awakened person has replaced his ignorance with wisdom and knows that all phenomena (being empty of inherent existence) are dependently originated due to their causal conditions arising and cease due to their causal conditions ceasing - so due to compassion, the awakened person will try to help others to get rid of their suffering by telling them the way out of suffering.