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I was reading a book earlier in the week and I made some notes in my little Buddhism notebook from the chapter 'Freedom':
We think our beliefs, ideas and desires can be relied on to give us satisfaction. If we see them for what they really are we see that they only provide temporary satisfaction. Really they are our primary sources of anxiety and fear, always subject to contradiction and doubt. Desires are frozen views of reality.
"When we actually see reality for what it is, all questions of meaning are transcended, and we're free to engage the world as it actually is."
Anyone care to explain the difference between t-r-a-n-s-c-e-n-d-i-n-g meaning and meaninglessness?
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personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
Meaningless is just the opposite side of the meaning coin. Transcending it altogether is like stepping out of the circle and not playing the game at all.
Meaningless is just the opposite side of the meaning coin. Transcending it altogether is like stepping out of the circle and not playing the game at all.
I am still apparently missing something, or is somehow not playing the game meaningless? To put it another way, if stepping out of the game is meaningless then why do it? And of course, if stepping out of the game is meaningful then stepping out would be stepping in, right?
@Nevermind. I think it is a paradox. To step outside of samsara to get Nirvana is still samsara. Is that what you are saying? You cannot trick mahadukkha. You have to experience these states which eventually liberate into mahasukkha (great bliss). I think it is like Sogyal Rinpoche says 'glimpse after glimpse after glimpse'.
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personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
Meaningless is just the opposite side of the meaning coin. Transcending it altogether is like stepping out of the circle and not playing the game at all.
I am still apparently missing something, or is somehow not playing the game meaningless? To put it another way, if stepping out of the game is meaningless then why do it? And of course, if stepping out of the game is meaningful then stepping out would be stepping in, right?
I can't think of a better way to put it than I did before, all your contemplation and questioning is still playing the game. There is no need to figure or work your way out, you just need to stop playing and enjoy the flowers.
Meaningless is just the opposite side of the meaning coin. Transcending it altogether is like stepping out of the circle and not playing the game at all.
I am still apparently missing something, or is somehow not playing the game meaningless? To put it another way, if stepping out of the game is meaningless then why do it? And of course, if stepping out of the game is meaningful then stepping out would be stepping in, right?
I can't think of a better way to put it than I did before,
Then perhaps you might think it though.
all your contemplation and questioning is still playing the game.
I don't seem to have a problem playing the game. Is it a problem for you?
There is no need to figure or work your way out, you just need to stop playing and enjoy the flowers.
I'm not trying to figure or work my way out. Are you?
@Nevermind. I think it is a paradox. To step outside of samsara to get Nirvana is still samsara. Is that what you are saying? You cannot trick mahadukkha. You have to experience these states which eventually liberate into mahasukkha (great bliss). I think it is like Sogyal Rinpoche says 'glimpse after glimpse after glimpse'.
I guess it might help if it can explain how transcending meaning is bliss or nirvana. Can anyone do that?
To me it sounds like someone saying that if you eat a cheeseburger you will transcend hunger. That is of course true in a sense, but it is rather meaningless. Oh wait, I get it. We transcend meaning with meaninglessness. Very clever!
@nevermind. By 'categorical freedom' I take it you meant freedom as opposed to not-freedom. If that what's you meant, thanks for giving me a useful phrase.
@nevermind. By 'categorical freedom' I take it you meant freedom as opposed to not-freedom. If that what's you meant, thanks for giving me a useful phrase.
Actually I should have said categorized freedom, or something like that.
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personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
Is it this? Is it that? Is it up? Is it down? Is it meaningful? Is it meaningless? These are all just intellectual ideas about something. Transcend means to go beyond something, to surpass, when so many teachings talk about going beyond the intellect, going beyond the realm of concepts they really mean it. Transcending meaning means to step outside these ideas, it can't be conceived of, you can't argue or debate your way there, it can only be experienced directly.
Is it this? Is it that? Is it up? Is it down? Is it meaningful? Is it meaningless? These are all just intellectual ideas about something. Transcend means to go beyond something, to surpass, when so many teachings talk about going beyond the intellect, going beyond the realm of concepts they really mean it. Transcending meaning means to step outside these ideas, it can't be conceived of, you can't argue or debate your way there, it can only be experienced directly.
Maybe the problem is that you believe meaning is entirely intellectual? Is that what you believe?
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personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
You asked the question, I'm just doing my best to answer.
Right, so is the problem that you believe meaning is entirely intellectual? Is that what you believe?
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personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
Confined in the dark, narrow cage of our own making that we take for the whole universe, very few of us can even begin to imagine another dimension of mind. Patrul Rinpoche tells the story of an old frog who had lived all his life in a dank well. One day a frog from the sea paid him a visit. “Where do you come from?” asked the frog in the well. “From the great ocean,” he replied. “How big is your ocean?” “It’s gigantic.” “You mean about a quarter of the size of my well here?” “Bigger.” “Bigger? You mean half as big?” “No, even bigger.” “Is it . . . as big as this well?” “There’s no comparison.” “That’s impossible! I’ve got to see this for myself.” They set off together. When the frog from the well saw the ocean, it was such a shock that his head just exploded into pieces.
It's a trick question, categorical freedom is not freedom. Responsibility applies across the board, and it's a big board.
Spiritual freedom is a changeable notion, for example at times it is the freedom to be enslaved by responsibility. At other times it is questionable, at others not. Maybe you don't know how to narrow your question. What is spiritual freedom? Still chewing?
Grace means that the path happens itself. You meet the path but you are just meeting it. You don't have to control or fix the path. It is already fine and there. The earth is good.
Unless there is a God it would seem to be a gift that we give ourselves, yes?
No.
In Buddhism, the well known atheistic religion ( for some enlightened people ) 'grace' does not arrive or leave, it is present as our inherent pristine mind. It is the removal of the negative 'gifts' of karma that allows ourselves to be present.
Unless there is a God it would seem to be a gift that we give ourselves, yes?
@Nevermind I don't know. That depends on a polarized view that there either is a god or isn't or that there aren't multible gods or not non gods capable of such a gifting or laws of grace that unfold without a creator...etc.. The more important thing that has arisen from my experiences with grace has been the experience of connection with everything that manifests from an absence of self. Without a separation between the giver and receiver, who knows?. With a separation,..... no grace.
Unless there is a God it would seem to be a gift that we give ourselves, yes?
@Nevermind I don't know. That depends on a polarized view that there either is a god or isn't or that there aren't multible gods or not non gods capable of such a gifting or laws of grace that unfold without a creator...etc..
Not at all. If there's no God then God cannot give. That does not express a polarized view or bias.
The more important thing that has arisen from my experiences with grace has been the experience of connection with everything that manifests from an absence of self.
You mean peace, right? Too bad it's not a gift that keeps giving.
Without a separation between the giver and receiver, who knows?
If we're the giver and the receiver then there is no separation.
Comments
We think our beliefs, ideas and desires can be relied on to give us satisfaction. If we see them for what they really are we see that they only provide temporary satisfaction. Really they are our primary sources of anxiety and fear, always subject to contradiction and doubt. Desires are frozen views of reality.
"When we actually see reality for what it is, all questions of meaning are transcended, and we're free to engage the world as it actually is."
To me it sounds like someone saying that if you eat a cheeseburger you will transcend hunger. That is of course true in a sense, but it is rather meaningless. Oh wait, I get it. We transcend meaning with meaninglessness. Very clever!
How do you explain the fact that meaning can be so irrational?
Spiritual freedom is a changeable notion, for example at times it is the freedom to be enslaved by responsibility. At other times it is questionable, at others not. Maybe you don't know how to narrow your question. What is spiritual freedom? Still chewing?
In Buddhism, the well known atheistic religion ( for some enlightened people )
'grace' does not arrive or leave, it is present as our inherent pristine mind. It is the removal of the negative 'gifts' of karma that allows ourselves to be present.
No Cod or fishy stuff required.
I don't know.
That depends on a polarized view that there either is a god or isn't or that there aren't multible gods or not non gods capable of such a gifting or laws of grace that unfold without a creator...etc..
The more important thing that has arisen from my experiences with grace has been the experience of connection with everything that manifests from an absence of self.
Without a separation between the giver and receiver, who knows?.
With a separation,..... no grace.