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Buddhists after death
I know it is common for Buddhists to cremated at their funeral, but does anyone how Buddhism in general regards the donation of organs after death?
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Like the surgeon offering his client/patient a brain transplant..
"Well now, we have three on offer:
One belonged to a high powered lawyer - that's 10,000 dollars.
This one came from a famous artist and sculptor - that's 6,000 dollars, and this one came from a politician.... thatt's 25,000 dollars."
"Jeez!" exclaims the patient, "that's a whole heck of a lot of spondoolies! How come it's so much more expensive - ?!?"
"Ah, well, you see," explains the surgeon, "that one's never been used...."
I am an organ donor and it is listed as such on my driver's license as well as notated in my will. I believe that if my organs can help to save a life after I am gone then that will be a red letter day.
Adiana
It is very honourable to have organ donated after death. Interestingly, Buddhism text claimed that the first 8 to 12 hours upon death, the concsiousness still remain. If the body was being touched/moved within this time, he/she the dead person will be in great unbearable pain.
Hope this help.
cheers,
BTW, love your new avatar!
Palzang
Thanks.
You are absolutely right.
cheers,
You have a heart of a Bodhisattva.
Immeasurable merits.
cheers,
It is highly important that at a point of death, one must be mindful, concious and better still focus on Buddha's name or image. Else, karma will dictakes the choice of rebirth. Try not to have Alzheimer.
cheers,
Kind of like Soylent Green?
Michael
Hi Kinlee,
Interesting post. That's what I love about this site - learning new things all the time.
I also liked the way you posted your post (much nicer than how most of my postings come out)
Buddhism text "claimed" that the first 8 to 12 hours...
Does anybody know if this is true? That your consciousness remains in your body for an arbitrary amount of time? Where did this come from? Who said it? Has it been proved?
I think Palzang(sp?) made a good point. Since we don't know this and if a person is working out of compassion or caring for fellow humans and their suffering - I don't think identifying yourself as a donor is a bad thing at all. I think it's a good thing and maybe I should spend more time considering this being an option for me.
The only thing that scares me is getting in an accident or something (like being in a coma) and a doctor taking something that I might not really be done with !!!!!
Michael
I put up a post and was hoping that I didn't mis-quote you regarding this and Kinlee's post. I think I may have made it sound like you were saying that this "concept" of the body not being touched may not have factual basis - and this was not my intention.
So, if anyone takes it that way - I apologize for taking Palzangs explanation a little too far.
Michael
Answer: As for whether it is true or not I cannot say. I do not know myself, and I have not seen any scientific proof one way or the other. I do know that different traditions of Buddhism have different views on the matter though.
Tibetan beliefs (a good look at this can found in the Bardo Thodol, also known as the Tibetan Book of the Dead) state that a person enters the bardo for a given period of time, while Theravadin beliefs (especially those based on the Abhidhamma) state that rebirth is immediate. (Although there are some sects of Theravadins who adopted a belief of an intermediate state. The Sarvāstivādins were one such sect.)
It all depends on the teachings I suppose. I am unfamiliar with the Tibetan bardo, so I cannot say much more about it. I do know that the Theravadin view of kamma makes rebirth a cause and effect-like process, so there is no 'pause in between'. The Pali scholar Buddhaghosa posited a `rebirth-linking consciousness' (patisandhi) which connected the arising of a new life with the moment of death. *shakes head* Not like I even understand what that means
Beyond that I am at a loss myself. I am unsure as to what exactly happens right after the 'moment of death'. I have found interesting and convincing arguements for both sides (intermediate state versus immediate rebirth). For now that is one of the things I put aside, because otherwise I just get stuck on that and lose sight of the rest of the Path.
I figure that if I do the best I can with the time I've got by studying, meditating, living a wholesome life, etc. then whatever happens after death -- I will be better prepared for it. I'm sure that I'll discover the truth all to soon anyway. Time is indeed short. Tick, tick, tick, tick.
For me, on one hand, I have a hard time believing that the psyche/conciousness of a person remains in the body at death. I mean - why would it.
But, what about people that drown? Or die and then are de-fibbed back to life?
You could say, "Well, that's because there was still oxygen in their system which allowed the brain to remain alive, thus hosting the conciousness"
Or even when the brain runs out of oxygen - the body can be brought back to life through various medical procedures - but the brain has been damaged and the person might not come back "whole".
We know there is a magic 3-minute number where things start deteriorating.
I, myself believe, when you're dead - you're dead. End. Kapoot.
But, now I have to start thinking about - where doesn the conciousness reside in this time period where a person can be revived?
What about a coma? What about unconciousness? What about sleep?
Now I'm giving myself a headache.
Michael
But, what about people that drown? Or die and then are de-fibbed back to life?"
Good point. That is why I leave this one alone for the most part. I have my own views of course, and I certainly speak them, but to be 100% sure about them.....nope, not me. Consciousness is taught in the Pali Canon as being a conditioned phenomena like all things. Once the conditions are gone, the consciousness is gone. The only problem is how can we ever tell when 'the' condition/conditions is/are gone? Is it right after death? Is it a few minutes after death? Is if a few days after death? Was there even a condition to begin with (Life being an illusion of sorts)?
Too many possiblities and too much speculation for me to have any definite conclusion on this one. I'll leave it up to the scientists and scholars to argue out. In the mean time I'll just wait for the 'direct experience' to be sure.
The Tibetan description says there are four (or six, depending on how you split it up) bardo states. In fact, we are in a bardo state right now, the bardo of living. When we die, we enter the bardo of dying in which the elements that make up our body separate and our consciousness leaves physical existence. Then it enters the bardo of the intermediate state where, according to the "Tibetan Book of the Dead", or Bardo Thodrol, as the Tibetans call it, we encounter various deities (actually projections of our own enlightened awareness) and have the possibility of entering into one of the six realms of existence. Then we enter the bardo of becoming where we are attracted to a mother and father and enter physical existence at the time of their union. Once birth takes place, we enter the bardo of living once again. Some teachers add the bardos of dreaming and meditating as well. It is important that all bardos, including the bardo of living, are essentially the same, that is, they are all like the dream state, not real. Yeah, I said not real. We are unable to know reality for what it is until we become enlightened.
While the bardo teachings are quite clear that the body should not be touched or moved for the first few hours after death, up to 12 hours if possible, it should also be noted that most people faint when they die and are unaware of what is happening to their body. So again, I don't see any problem with organ donation. It is unlikely that we'd be aware of what was going on. And if we were a very good practitioner, we wouldn't be attached to our physical body anyway, so it wouldn't bother us even if we were aware!
The other thing I mentioned is phowa, the transference of consciousness at the time of death. This is a very highly developed practice in Vajrayana that enables the practitioner to "shoot" his/her consciousness out of the crown chakra at the moment of death straight into Amitabha's Pure Land. Now, what does that really mean? I'd say that a Pure Land is a state of mind more than an actual place. That's what my teacher has taught us. It is a state of mind where practice comes easily without obstacles and enlightenment in one lifetime becomes a real possibility. Anyway, if one has practiced phowa sufficiently under the guidance of a qualified master, it is quite possible to do this practice on one's own whatever the circumstances of death. If one has a teacher who has mastered this practice, the teacher will be there to help us if we need it. So in that case, it really doesn't matter at all what happens to the body after death!
And now for something completely different...
Palzang
Lemme break it down for ya...
If bonk-bonk on head makey no wakey-wakey, is we just sleepsy-peepsy or bye-bye birdie?
Michael
I try to find more detail information about this when more available.
cheers,
Although I have some difficulties understanding some Buddhism vocab in English (All this while, I am only familiar with Chinese language. But I think you have said it all.
I need to still spend some time digesting it.
Thanks.
Nevertheless I like it.
I have been reading this thread with interest, I don't have anything to contribute apart from the fact that this is one of the funniest things I've read in ages.
I said shorten, not start talking like you do on MSN. LOL
Try this: die-light-black-deities-rebirth-live-die (repeat dream ad infinitum)
Does that about sum it up?
Question:
At the moment of death does your consciousness...
Answer:
A. Immediately becomes the cause for a new birth.
B. Waits for a period of time in an intermediate state awaiting the conditions to be ripe for a new birth.
C. Goes straight to the Pure Land.
D. Ceases because the conditions for consciousness cease. (i.e. mind and body)
E. All of the above.
F. None of the above.
Good point. Sorry, Comic, I must have forgot I wasn't in the Star Trek Chat Room.
LOL. ROTFLMAO! WTF?!?!?! LOL! TTFN!!!!
Michael
Well at least someone doesn't feel they have ot have a go at me. Thank you.
Some died with serenity look and some awefully ugly.
cheers,
Regardless of religion and the beliefs of the procedure of dying, I found a lot of helpful information in books written by Elisabeth Kübler-Ross . She was a scientist who studied death. She studied dying people as well as people who had "near-death experiences" (meaning, they were clinically dead, but were able to return). She has written numerous books on this topic.
Dr. Elisabeth Kübler-Ross, psychiatrist and prolific author of the ground- breaking book, On Death and Dying, died Tuesday evening, August 24, 2004, in Scottsdale, Arizona of natural causes. She was surrounded by her family and close friends. She was 78.
" Every moment of her life was devoted to dying patients and what they were going through," noted long-time friend Mwalimu Imara, who has been close to her since the beginning of her research. "Her prolonged illness following several strokes only made her even more determined to speak up for the rights of the terminally ill."
Tributes began pouring in almost immediately from people around the world who have been stirred by Dr. Kübler-Ross’ teachings. According to her longtime publishing agent Barbara Hogensen, Kübler-Ross authored more than 20 books, many of which have been translated into more than twenty-eight languages. Titles include: To Live Until We Say Good-Bye, On Children and Death, AIDS: The Ultimate Challenge, and her autobiography, The Wheel of Life. Her most recent book, Real Taste of Life, was a photographic journal produced in collaboration with her son, Kenneth, a travel photographer, who helped care for her both personally and professionally since she officially retired to Arizona in 1995. She had recently finished drafting her final book, On Grief and Grieving, with longtime collaborator and friend, David Kessler.
Dr. Kübler-Ross was born as one of triplet sisters in Zurich, Switzerland, on July 8, 1926. Always spirited, she decided upon a medical career early in her childhood against the wishes of her father. The focus of her work in death and dying crystallized in 1945. She was a member of the International Voluntary Service for Peace who helped in ravaged communities after World War II. In the concentration camp, Maidanek, carved into the walls where prisoners spent their final hours, she discovered the symbolic butterflies which would become her symbol of the beautiful transformation that she believed occurred at the time of death.
After graduating from medical school at the University of Zurich, where she met future husband and fellow medical student Emanuel "Manny" Robert Ross, she came to the United States in 1958. She worked in major hospitals in New York, Colorado, and Chicago, and she was appalled by the standard treatment of dying patients." They were shunned and abused; nobody was honest with them," she said. Unlike her colleagues, she made it a point to sit with terminal patients, listening as they poured out their hearts to her. While simultaneously raising two small children, she began giving lectures featuring dying patients who talked about their most intimate dying experiences. "My goal was to break through the layer of professional denial that prohibited patients from airing their inner-most concerns," she wrote.
Her bestselling first book, On Death and Dying, 1969, made her an internationally-renowned author. Even today, her trail-blazing book is required reading in most major medical, nursing, and psychology programs. A 1969 Life Magazine article outlining her work gave further mainstream credibility and awareness to this new way of dealing with dying patients, although her conclusions were quite revolutionary at the time. "People today find it hard to believe that her now commonly-accepted conclusions were quite revolutionary at the time," said her sister, Eva Bacher. "She was always very proud that her work helped to bring the hospice movement into the mainstream in the United States."
Throughout the 1970's, Dr. Kübler-Ross led hundreds of workshops and spoke to standing-room-only crowds throughout the world. The "five psychological stages of dying" (denial, anger, bargaining, depression and finally acceptance) outlined in her book became accepted as common knowledge throughout the world. She continued to both learn and teach in many important medical facilities and hospitals as her influence grew.
She assumed the Presidency of the Elisabeth Kübler-Ross Center and the Shanti Nilaya Growth and Healing Center in the late 1970's, a base from which she gave "Life, Death and Transition" workshops worldwide. She also continued her personal interest in mysticism, the afterlife, and other less commonly-accepted forms of therapy. In the 1980's, she purchased a 300-acre farm in Head Waters, Virginia, to serve as a healing and workshop center, and called it Healing Waters. "Always controversial, she turned her focus at the time into helping babies born with AIDS when nobody else wanted anything to do with them," said Frances Leuthy, who was her assistant and ran the Virginia center. She officially retired to Arizona in 1995, after a series of serious strokes debilitated her body, and a fire, which destroyed her house and all of her belongings. She left her farm behind for a fresh start near to son, Kenneth.
Even in retirement, she continued to receive hundreds of visitors from around the world, including celebrities such as Mohammed Ali, Susan Sarandon, and Lady Sarah Ferguson. The March 29, 1999 issue of Time Magazine named her one of "The Century's Greatest Minds" in a summary of the 100 greatest scientists and thinkers of the century. Throughout the span of her life, she continued to encourage students with similar interests, and regularly contributed forwards, chapters, and sections to numerous other authors’ books regarding death, dying, and grief. She was the recipient of more than 20 honorary degrees from colleges and universities across the country. She participated in a number of advisory boards, committees and societies, and was one of the founders of the American Holistic Medical Association.
Always outspoken, her work in challenging the medical profession to change its view of dying patients brought about great change and advanced many important concepts such as living wills, home health care, and helping patients to die with dignity and respect. "She always was, and will continue to be, a strong voice for the rights of terminally ill patients," noted Dr. Gregg Furth, New York Jungian psychologist, a close family friend and supporter.
In the final years of her life, she looked forward to her own quick "transition" and tried to deal with the frustration of helping thousands of people to accept their own death, and yet being unable to direct her own. Never fearing death, she wanted only to follow what she believed, "Life doesn't end when you die. It starts." She is survived by son Kenneth Lawrence, a photographer in Scottsdale, Arizona; daughter Barbara Lee Rothweiler , a clinical psychologist in Wausau, Wisconsin, (husband, Jeffrey); granddaughters Sylvia and Emma; and sister Eva. She is preceded in death by former husband Manny; brother, Ernst; and sister, Erika.
Once saying of her impending death, "I am like a plane that has left the gate and not taken off. I would rather go back to the gate or fly away."
Thank you for the reminder about EKR. We went on one of her workshops in Ireland back in the early '80s. She was an extraordinary person.
In this question and answer session between the King Milinda and the Venerable Nagasena the concepts of rebirth, karma, and nirvana are explored. I find it very helpful to read when doubts and perplexities about these subjects arise. It may not answer all of your questions, but for me it definitly instills confidence and faith in the teachings when explained in such a way.
ROTFLMAO: Rolling on the floor laughing my ass off
TTFN: Ta ta (goodbye) for now (UK 1930s and '40s, brought back by the Net: there is no death)
Now to the serious matter of organ donation. As you ask about the bardos, I imagine that the respondents are from the Vajrayana ('Tibetan') tradition. Our venerable bhikksu, Palzang, may be able to say more about this. I consulted Sogyal Rinpoche's The Tibetan Book of Living and Dying. Here is his answer to a question about organ donation: This answer does leave open the case of the person who has not expressed their preference. In the current UK system, a person has to opt in to donation. Many of us feel that it would be more sensible to have an opt out which would leave donation as a possibility in all unspecified cases.
I am a strong supporter of donation and I have donor cards on view in my house. A number of young people have signed up, especially those riding motorbikes!
In some ways, organ donation seems to me to be our version of the 'sky burial' where the body of the deceased is cut up and fed to the vultures. Life giving life.
Simon thanks for that quote - I have been wanting to purchase that book for months, but it is not yet a financial priority LOL! I understand why the reasons why not to let organs be taken from the body as it will affect the conciousness, but in a way isn't that a selfish reason and therefore would it not bring about bad karma? And would donating an organ while still alive have any impact on this?
Palzang
Well I know Pure Land Buddhists do chant Amitabha many times once a person dies, to purify karma and hope the bodhisattva will intercede on the person's behalf. But personally, I think I'll prefer a space funeral, it's very cool and only there will it be truly "empty"... Get it?
you cannot dictate conditions.....
You can only choose whether to give, or not give. But your 'authority' ends there.
Make good to come out of giving. Get my organs do some good.