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Buddhist Mantras and Chants - curious about which are off limits to non-empowered
Jainarayan
Veteran
I'm just curious, for the purpose of learning, which of these are off limits to someone who has not received empowerment? And for any that are not off limits, would they (any one mantra, not all at once) be recited on a mala? http://www.visiblemantra.org/mantra.html
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Does this mean they've all had a marvellous (placebo) effect, but in actual fact, I've just been droning meaningless drivel?
What's the difference between reciting a mantra WITH an empowerment and reciting one without?
I mean, what difference does it make to the mantra, and the 'Buddha' in question?
If you do something with a devout intention, I think the whole meaning is magnified.
I shouldn't think anyone "empowered" honestly feels any different to anyone else reciting the mantras, when the Right Intention is there.
It's like saying that the Pope reciting the 'Our Father', is more worthy of response than a member of his congregation, because he's ordained and they're not...
The connection with ones root Guru becomes the basis for the mantra because one literally enters his or her mandala. The mantra effects the energies, which in turn coordinates the physical body and mind. Also it is very important to know what mantra does what and what the intention/purpose of each mantra is. So its not just all pretty sounding words, they all serve a specific function.
For instance Green Tara mantra helps for quick action. If you need something done fast, some quick help then this mantra does its job. You connect with the deity through the direct transmission given by the Root Guru.
But this is all Vajrayana context and does not really relate unless one is one the Vajrayana path.
Are you telling me that an Italian priest reciting a prayer in English - and mispronouncing some words into the bargain - negates 'the power of the prayer'?
If so, why?
(I use the above as an example as I witnessed this happening).
Totally unnecessary, in my experience. I recited the Tara mantra one night in order to help both my parents in a difficult situation.
The following morning, there was a perceptible and discernible change for the better in both of them.
Quick enough? So in other words, such a connection is largely unnecessary?
because i have experienced benefits for myself, and for others, with no empowerment whatsoever....
Are you telling me that an Italian priest reciting a prayer in English - and mispronouncing some words into the bargain - negates 'the power of the prayer'?
If so, why?
(I use the above as an example as I witnessed this happening).
I view it as like any kind of art. One can benefit from learning about the mantra. Is that the essence of the mantra? Probably not because I feel intention with heart felt connection is probably the largest condition. But then again people butcher mantras and still mantras work, so obviously causality isn't so linear as we hope.
And no it doesn't negate the power, no where did I imply that. I am just sharing the other side or rather my subjective experience as a Vajrayana practitioner. Totally unnecessary, in my experience.
Well it has been a large part of my current life and practice. So what may be unnecessary for one may be necessary for another and vice versa. Please don't be quick to dismiss. I recited the Tara mantra one night in order to help both my parents in a difficult situation.
The following morning, there was a perceptible and discernible change for the better in both of them.
Quick enough?
Definitely. That is really cool that the mantra worked for you and your parents. Nowhere did I imply that objectively one needs to have requirements for the mantra to work. The Tara energies/deities work beyond our comprehension. I guess what I was trying to say was that if one builds a relationship with such energies then it is very likely for the mantra to have an effect. When we connect with the lineage and root guru that gives us a greater condition for an effect. Not to say that this is the only condition, or even a valid one. It all depends on the individual, circumstance and various other conditions. Nothing final, and objective. So in other words, such a connection is largely unnecessary?
because i have experienced benefits for myself, and for others, with no empowerment whatsoever....
Well that doesn't mean its unnecessary. It just means they work without empowerments, etc.
I think if one is a Vajrayana practitioner then it is very important. If not then no big deal. Its not like there is a hierarchy to mantras and their effectiveness. Its not that black and white.
Sorry if I seemed dismissive or presumption. It was not my intention to offend but rather give a different point of view. Nothing absolute or truly authentic just a casual sharing. Though that might not be heard via words on a forum.
I wish you well.
Not much different than when a teacher's words pop into our mind to help us see more clearly, or why the sangha is one of the jewels. Imho.
Recently created these Mantra FAQ
http://yinyana.tumblr.com/post/57234975984/buddhist-mantra-faqs
If you think you need your mantra blessed/approved/sanctioned by your local 'which Dr', then all well and good - go for it . . . feel free (always recommended)
Om ya ha hum
(yep - made that mantra up, yep I use it, yep it works, yep you can use it)
As some might know, there are no mantras or empowerments in Theravada or Mahayana.
They do it the long way...meaning sutras.
Also the Buddha forbade mantra chanting, someone has to look up the relevant sutra for this.
In TB, the empowerment looks like 'permission ' to practice, the ruling clergy dispenses absolute power!
Much like the church's excommunication etc.
Humans have evolved the ability to issue edicts, rules on behalf of higher powers, go figure.
Altho, certain practices like wrathful deties shouldn't even be exposed to lay.
Again anything with OM in it is Hindu based.
My friend who spent a few years in Ganden perfectly sums it up about TB;
"BUDDHIST IN PHILOSOPHY, HINDU IN PRACTICE. "
In metta,
Raven
Suffice it to say that there are dimensions of mantrayoga that you will not experience without empowerment.
And most people who have had empowerments can conform that.
There is also a whole catagory of the most effective mantras which unless you are in a longterm relationship to a teacher you will never hear about. Even in this digital age.
_/\_
@Patr, as it's your assertion, it's up to you to provide evidence of the Buddha's decree on Mantra Chanting.
Please find accurate reference and report back.
Such comments cannot be allowed to pass without some substantial evidence.
Such evidence needs to be provided at the time of posting.
If you have no evidence, links, reference or copy, then don't bother posting hearsay.
Thanks. My intention was not to dismiss the Empowerment theory, but to demonstrate that they're not necessary.
I wholly agree with your above comment, @tayaki.
And I'm sorry if I came across as argumentative.
The world is changing.
The water -tight compartments are dissolving as all cultures stand face-to-face.
The Abbott of Amaravati the largest Theravadin monastery outside of Asia, is a Dzogchen student.
* NB. ' Hinduism ' is a convenient term for the range of beliefs that have their origin in the Vedas and Upanishads. Which set out the basics of karma and karma vipaka etc, and which indeed predate Buddha Dharma by more than a thousand years.
Buddhism Philosophy is Buddhist practice.
Hinduism is not relevant, and as such is an off-topic discussion.
And despite Hindu claims, no Buddhist school including the Vajrayana, accepts that the Buddha was an incarnation of Vishnu..lol.
The reverse influence is true however.
By the time of Adi Shankacharaya the great Hindu reformer who was active around the 9th century AD, the influence of Buddhism on Hinduism was obvious. So much so that Shankacharaya was accused of being a secret Buddhist..which he may indeed have been.
Anywhoo....
Chenresig/Avalokiteśvara, Tara/Kali etc avatars and Guru worship all come from Hindu witchcraft/tantra . . .
Most Westerners are not satisfied with this level of superstition and so deeper meanings and teachings are provided to fund and spread the Buddhist equivalent of Catholicism.
I love a bit of magic but then I think the Virgin Mary in my local Church is a manifestation of the Mother of the Buddhas . . .
:crazy:
as for my creditability and references...NONE
Lets go back beyond populist assumptions and look at the basics.
Firstly though this is by way of explanation in response to your request. It is NOT an attempt to convert you or modify your views.
It is simply to define the terms of any discussion.
Common to Buddhist, Vedic and Jain ideas of mantra practice is the idea of 'bijas' This translates literally as 'seeds '. These ' seeds' are stored in Alaya ( store ) consciousness. And correspond to objective realities. Alaya consciousness is associated with vijnana the fifth kandha/skandha .
Alaya-vjinana is the 'store' for all actions and impressions and thoughts. Its where 'karma' is stored.
Within alaya-vijnana are also symbols and sounds that are non -different ( notice not 'the same' ) from that which they represent. These symbols and sounds are called 'bija'.
So that for example the bija mantram for water is 'vam' . Vam sounded with the correct intonation and 'vibration' for want of a better term is non- different to the element of water.
The correct intonation and 'vibration' depends on hearing it from one who has already activated the bija, and who then speaks it into the ear of the student.
All authentic mantrams contain at least one bija. We cant of course simply make up our own mantrams, they resonate according to fundamental and universal principles.
So what happens if we recite a mantram without the empowerment ?
Well we won't come to harm. The mantram might be soothing. It might have an emotional resonance for us. It might serve as a suitable subject for developing concentration..but Vajrayana teachers would say that without the activation of the bija by empowerment it will not be fully effective.
_/\_
Does one chant a mantra (now that we know none are "off limits") as many times as desired with or without a mala (I can see that as a yes)? The main reason I ask about using mantras is that I don't practice a formal sadhana and thought I might use the mantras the way a litany is used in Christianity to pray to the saints; that is, one or three or seven repetitions or x for each deity as a form of worship.
Yes, this is what I've learned.
_/\_
No one can give it to you, teach it to you, or take it away.
It's already there, inside you. If you believe you are empowered, you will be, because you ARE. If you believe you're not, until someone tells you you are, or passes empowerment onto you- you are voluntarily denying your own empowerment.
35+ years in the world of Gods and Goddesses, spells, magick, ritual, prayers, and magickal thinking taught me one profound thing:
It's ALL in your head. You can not, and do not 'rule' over anything but your own mind and microscopic sphere of your own physical existence.
One of the mantras I was wondering about to add to my 'litany' is the 100 syllable Vajrasattva mantra. So you see how I was thinking of using the mantras, and if that is permissible. It may be the directions I am coming from: having been Catholic then Eastern Orthodox, which are rife with litanies of praise and supplication, and the Hindu perspective of "One Deity One Mantra". A confusing admixture to be sure.
Vajrasattva is a Vajrayana Deity. Some would say THE Vajrayana Deity who was the cosmic teacher of the Buddha..
So from a Vajrayana pov you will get the full benefit only with empowerment.
You see, its a question that until recently simply wouldn't have been asked, because outside of the Vajrayana there was no knowledge of Vajrasattva. So all of those who did the mantra did it in the context of Vajrayana.
Of course you can do it. But as Spiny Norman says ..why ? If you don't think Vajrasattva has an objective existence ? If what you want is a suitable sound to focus on..
Why not something neutral like 'Buddho'..
Cherry-picking as the bus goes by will in the long term just add to confusion imo.
Vajrayana is an entire system consistent to itself.
Not the only system of course.....
_/\_