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I think part of the problem is a reluctance to see that there is no standard model of Buddha-Dharma, and this includes aspects that some would consider to be of the essence. Once one lets go of the need to see specific commonalities we are more free to see what IS being said.
@caz I know the term Hinayana does not refer to Theravada. As for the rest. The traditional terminology is what is the perceived insult... but what ever floats your boat caz. Sorry for dropping an innocent observation into an obviously overheated discussion.
There are four major schools of Tibetan Buddhism - Gelug, Kagyu, Nyingma and Sakya. My understanding is that Dzogchen teachings come within the Nyingma school.
There seems to be no debate that the Gelug tradition teaches 4NT/N8FP, but it seems that all the other traditions also feature the 4NT and N8FP in their teachings. I think all traditions regard the 4NT and N8FP as an essential foundation.
Kagyu Tradition
The Jewel Ornament of Liberation (JOL) is a masterwork of Tibetan Buddhism written by Gampopa, the foremost disciple of Milarepa. JOL is said to capture the essence of both the Kadampa and Kagyu lineages.
In Chapter 18 of the JOL, the N8FP and 4NT are mentioned as follows:
Why is this called the path of meditation? Because there, one becomes familiar with the realizations that one achieved in the path of insight. At this stage, there are eight of the thirty-seven branches of enlightenment:
The path of insight begins after the highest worldly dharma and consists of calm abiding as a basis for special insight focused on the Four Noble Truths... Why is it called the path of insight? Because there, one realizes the Four Noble Truths which were not seen before. At this stage there are seven of the branches of enlightenment....The “awareness of the exhaustion of causes” that arises after this absorption is the primordial wisdom awareness that observes the Four Noble Truths by the power of the exhaustion of all causes. The “awareness of the unborn” is the primordial wisdom that observes the Four Noble Truths by the power of abandoning the result, suffering.
The followings are teachings by Khenchen Thrangu Rinpoche who was the personal tutor of the four principal Karma Kagyu tulkus: Shamar Rinpoche, Situ Rinpoche, Jamgon Kongtrul Rinpoche, and Gyaltsab Rinpoche. He is also the 9th incarnation of the great Thrangu tulku.
He talks about the relationship of the Theravada teachings to the Mahayana teachings and goes into the details of the 4NT/N8FP:
Of the three yanas the first is the Theravada path which is often called the 'Hinayana.' 'Hinayana' literally means 'lesser vehicle' but this term should in no way be a reproach or be construed to in any way diminish the importance of these teachings... If it weren't for these teachings, which are particularly appropriate for those with limited wisdom or diligence, many persons would never reach the Mahayana path.... It should be very clear that this term 'lesser'vehicle is in no way a pejorative term. It provides the necessary foundation on which to build. The fundamental teachings of the Theravada are the main subject matter of the first turning of the wheel of dharma... The main subject matter of these teachings were the Four Noble Truths.
Ngak’chang Rinpoche, reincarnation of Aro Yeshé, the son of the extraordinary female visionary Lama Khyungchen Aro Lingma, who founded the Aro lineage of the Dzogchen tradition, refers to the 4NT/N8FP in his teachings:
There is a tremendously powerful message within the Four Noble Truths and the Eightfold Path which the Ulukha-mukha Sutra presents as a pointing-out instruction... The way in which the Four Noble Truths are commonly understood tends to foster the idea that release from dukkha lies beyond the body and the physical world; but the Ulukha-mukha Sutra completely reverses this misconception, and lays open the vast possibility that is inherent in every aspect of existence...
It is seriously pertinent not to misinterpret the First Noble Truth as a statement which denigrates the body and the world. The First Noble Truth does not state that the body or the world are in themselves unsatisfactory, but that our experience is characterised in that way. This is quite evident in the Vimalakirti Sutra [which] says that he sees no such unsatisfactory life or conditions. They are illusory. The world is perfect as it is....
The way in which the Eightfold Path encapsulates the entire spectrum of Sutric teaching is brought out with delicious grace in the Ulukha-mukha Upadesha Sutra. There we find that the Eightfold Path describes Tantra and Dzogchen as well.
Ngala Nor’dzin Pamo, disciple of Ngak’chang Rinpoche, explains how the 4NT/N8FP relates to Dzogchen as follows:
In his booklet ‘Certainty’, which draws on aspects of the Ulukha-mukha Sutra, Ngak’chang Rinpoche called the Four Noble Truths the Four Fundamental Certainties, and the Eightfold Path the Path of Alignment. The Four Noble Truths are certainties upon which we can rely, as the source of our aspiration and as the foundation of our practice. As fundamental practices, it could be easy to see them merely as preliminary and as something we move beyond; but they are a source of inspiration and renewal of Refuge at any stage of our life as practitioners. The Eightfold Path constantly aligns us with method and view. Awareness, understanding, and active memory of the path enables us to check ourselves. It expresses the entirety of the Buddhist path, whether our focus is that of Sutric, Tantric, or Dzogchen practitioners. It expresses the entirety of the Buddhist path when we move between the vehicles, as appropriate to how we find ourselves. The Four Noble Truths and the Eightfold Path are a simple and direct teaching which we can authenticate for ourselves at an experiential level in order to be sure that we are working towards realisation for everyone and everything everywhere.
Jetsunma Ahkon Lhamo, an enthroned tulku within the Palyul lineage of the Nyingma tradition and the first Western woman to be named a reincarnate lama (as confirmed by His Holiness Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche, the then Supreme Head of the Nyingma tradition) and who has been described by her own teachers, as well as many other Tibetan Buddhist lamas as a dakini, has said the following about 4NT and N8FP:
I feel that no matter where you go in Dharma, you must understand the Four Noble Truths and the Eightfold Path. Without understanding these, there is no result. Even if you are doing the highest levels of Vajrayana, you must understand these fundamental teachings... This level of the Buddhist practice does not lead to enlightenment in one life. It takes lifetime after lifetime of consistent practice of the Eightfold Path in order to achieve some realization. So, that’s the slow route. Mahayana is a bit quicker, and Vajrayana is the one method in which you can achieve realization in one lifetime or at the time of death. We want liberation in one lifetime, but in order to do that you must train your mind according to the Eightfold Path. There is no doubt that this is the foundation of the Buddha’s teaching, and by itself will produce tremendous result.
Sakya Tradition
His Holiness the Sakya Trizin, supreme head of the Sakya Tradition, says the following about the 4NT and N8FP as follows:
Every structure needs a strong foundation. So, too, study and practice of the precious Dharma needs a stong foundation in order to progress through the various stages and levels. Without a strong foundation, it is very difficult to understand and achieve the levels of the Dharma. The Vajrayana - or tantric - path has foundations that it shares with all Buddhist paths, and it has foundations that are unique to Varjrayana. Of these, it is most essential to master the shared foundations.
In his book, "Freeing the Heart and Mind: Introduction to the Buddhist Path", His Holiness the Sakya Trizin focuses on giving the details about the 4NT.
Various websites of temples/centres/organisations in the Sakya tradition also shows scheduling of talks on the 4NT/N8FP or provides explanations of these concepts, this includes:
No no actually because all that does is illustrate the difference between reading and actually following a living tradition. And where it may well be the case that all or any tradition in abstract and in theory follows a certain curriculum the practice may be substantially different. So by a piece of irony, Thrangu Rinpoche was my second Kagyu Teacher. I first received teachings from him in the seventies and have attended a number of summer camps taught by him in the UK and the USA as well as visiting his monastery in Nepal, and I have NEVER heard him even mention the 8FP...and this is the crux of the matter Dzogchen/Maha-ati is not posited on Theravada practices, although those practices form the academic underpinning for the later developments, but no student is expected to work their way through those practices. The background is there for those who are interested in the history of the ideas. I have no doubt that Thrangu Rinpoches knowledge of the history of the basic Hinayana teachings and their influence on later Vajrayana practice is profound as is his wealth of learning in general. But that does not form part of his Maha-ati teaching with his initiated students. I have no agenda and no reason to lie. I suggest @karmablues that you join Vajracakra.com and garner views among the actual practitioners concerning these and other issues.
NB As I have said before Dzogchen is NOT an exclusively Nyingma practice. Some of its greatest teachers have been drawn from the Kagyu. Including the current Dzogchen Rinpoche.
As to the Sakyapa you might try contacting the Dechen Organisation and asking Lama Jampa ( Sakya Trizin's European Lineage holder ) and asking him directly if he teaches the 4NT or 8FP in any formal or overt way.
But I suspect once more the views of those who actually follow the living tradition will be drowned by the opinions of those who read about them. Its weird but funny to be lectured by someone outside of one's tradition as to the nature of what is taught to students of that tradition...
If one dies before one dies...would that garner more faith in rebirth? ...idk...just asking... ...as for me...death and rebirth kind of became a non-issue... ...but fun to scare folks with....bwahahaahaaa
If you don't believe in rebirth then just remember that Buddha never lies and continue your meditation practice. Hopefully, one day you will be enlightened and things will be clear to you.
That is a 7,500 word essay he wrote on the subject which I think shows the importance he places on the 4NT/N8FP. He also says clearly in the essay that the Theravadan teachings on the 4NT "provides the necessary foundation on which to build." He makes that point clear in the introduction section. In the conclusion to his essay he says that "The Four Noble Truths taught by the Buddha are very important."
This DVD features teachings in the 4NT given by Tai Situ Rinpoche at Sherab Ling, in India in 2003 during the week of his 5th birthday celebration. The title of Tai Situ is considered to be one of the highest ranking reincarnated lamas of the Karma Kagyu lineage.
Also there is book called "Dzogchen Teachings" by Chögyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche, a tulku of the great Dzogchen teacher, Adzom Drugpa. In that book he says the following:
There is a teaching that is universal to all Buddhists called the Four Noble Truths. This was the first teaching transmitted by Buddha. Even if we have different methods in the teaching, such as Tantra and Dzogchen, they are always based on the Four Noble Truths. Why are they called the Noble Truths? They are noble because they are important for knowledge and understanding.
Regarding Lama Jampa's teachings, well, since he is the student of HH Sakya Trizin who is the Supreme Head of the Sakya Tradition, wouldn't what the latter teaches be a more authoritative source? And as I said, HH Sakya Trizin said that it "was essential to master" the Buddha's teachings on the 4NT/N8FP. In an article published in Melody of Dharma, HH Sakya Trizin has also said this:
The real Dharma is also the Path that leads to the Truth of Cessation. The path that leads to uncontaminated primordial wisdom, that becomes a direct antidote to the obscurations, is the Truth of Path. The Truth of Cessation and the Truth of Path, the last two of the Four Noble Truths, are another aspect of the Dharma. They are the true Dharma.
Regarding HH Sakya Trizin's book called "Freeing the Heart and Mind: Introduction to the Buddhist Path", the focus of his introductory chapter was to explain in detail the 4NT. The book is described as "the first volume in a course of study for students of the Sakya tradition."
And I want to make clear that I have no intention of lecturing anyone about their own tradition. This is a forum for sharing ideas and information. If you look at this post and my previous post, you will see that I have mostly relied on quotes of respected teachers within the traditions and links to resources of websites within the traditions. Therefore, it is for those reading my posts on this topic to make what they want to of the quotes and material provided. As someone from outside the tradition, my literal interpretation of the material shows that a lot of importance is given to 4NT/N8FP. However, perhaps someone within the tradition would have a different context with which to understand these quotes and material and would come to a different conclusion. I have no problem with that.
Oh good grief! :rolleyes: Has no one heard the Dalai Lama talking about the 8-fold path? Many times he's said that the (historical) Hinayana teachings are the foundation for Mahayana and Tibetan Buddhism.
But the topic here is rebirth. How interesting, given past history on NB, that we're quibbling over these other details, rather than raging over rebirth, lol! ...whatever. :-/ Carry on. :coffee:
Oh good grief! :rolleyes: Has no one heard the Dalai Lama talking about the 8-fold path? Many times he's said that the (historical) Hinayana teachings are the foundation for Mahayana and Tibetan Buddhism.
But the topic here is rebirth. How interesting, given past history on NB, that we're quibbling over these other details, rather than raging over rebirth, lol! ...whatever. :-/ Carry on. :coffee:
No one is gainsaying that. What I am saying, and its easily checked out , is that many Vajrayana teachers while acknowledging the historical importance of the 8fp and 4nt. skip straight past them in their teachings. If you doubt that go to vajracakra.com, or if that is too esoteric Dharma Wheel, and set up a poll asking the members to indicate if they have received any overt form teaching on the 8fp or 4nt from their Vajrayana Guru...if you do this rather than simply repeating the universality of these subjects on NB. And If the results show more than say 30%... no 20%, of the Vajrayana students have received such teachings I guarantee that I will donate £100 to a charity of the pollster's choice. ( And those that have will be Gelugpa.)
I am confident that my cheque book will remain untroubled.
No one is gainsaying that. What I am saying, and its easily checked out , is that many Vajrayana teachers while acknowledging the historical importance of the 8fp and 4nt. skip straight past them in their teachings.
That's my understanding. There's a big difference between acknowledging a teaching and using it specifically for practice.
No one is gainsaying that. What I am saying, and its easily checked out , is that many Vajrayana teachers while acknowledging the historical importance of the 8fp and 4nt. skip straight past them in their teachings.
That's my understanding. There's a big difference between acknowledging a teaching and using it specifically for practice.
A simple point I would have thought...unless one is determined not to see it.
As you probably already gathered I am having trouble believing in Rebirth as much as I want to believe as so much of my Practice involves its belief. How do you banish doubt of it? Have you had a similair conflict to?
Have you made any progress with this? I eventually gave up Lamrim practice because of doubts like this, but it wouldn't be the right decision for everyone.
Comments
/Cheers
...since there are Ferraris?
There seems to be no debate that the Gelug tradition teaches 4NT/N8FP, but it seems that all the other traditions also feature the 4NT and N8FP in their teachings. I think all traditions regard the 4NT and N8FP as an essential foundation.
Kagyu Tradition
The Jewel Ornament of Liberation (JOL) is a masterwork of Tibetan Buddhism written by Gampopa, the foremost disciple of Milarepa. JOL is said to capture the essence of both the Kadampa and Kagyu lineages.
In Chapter 18 of the JOL, the N8FP and 4NT are mentioned as follows: The followings are teachings by Khenchen Thrangu Rinpoche who was the personal tutor of the four principal Karma Kagyu tulkus: Shamar Rinpoche, Situ Rinpoche, Jamgon Kongtrul Rinpoche, and Gyaltsab Rinpoche. He is also the 9th incarnation of the great Thrangu tulku.
He talks about the relationship of the Theravada teachings to the Mahayana teachings and goes into the details of the 4NT/N8FP: Nyingma (including Dzogchen) Tradition
The website of Nyingma Trust (founded by Tarthang Tulku, a lama of the Nyingma tradition who is also founder of the Tibetan Nyingmapa Meditation Center, the Tibetan Nyingma Relief Foundation, Dharma Publishing (USA) and the Nyingma Institute) gives details about the N8FP here: http://nyingmatrust.org/DharmaPerspectives/eightfoldPath.html and details about the 4NT here: http://nyingmatrust.org/DharmaPerspe,ctives/fourNobleTruths.html
Ngak’chang Rinpoche, reincarnation of Aro Yeshé, the son of the extraordinary female visionary Lama Khyungchen Aro Lingma, who founded the Aro lineage of the Dzogchen tradition, refers to the 4NT/N8FP in his teachings: Ngala Nor’dzin Pamo, disciple of Ngak’chang Rinpoche, explains how the 4NT/N8FP relates to Dzogchen as follows: Jetsunma Ahkon Lhamo, an enthroned tulku within the Palyul lineage of the Nyingma tradition and the first Western woman to be named a reincarnate lama (as confirmed by His Holiness Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche, the then Supreme Head of the Nyingma tradition) and who has been described by her own teachers, as well as many other Tibetan Buddhist lamas as a dakini, has said the following about 4NT and N8FP: Sakya Tradition
His Holiness the Sakya Trizin, supreme head of the Sakya Tradition, says the following about the 4NT and N8FP as follows: In his book, "Freeing the Heart and Mind: Introduction to the Buddhist Path", His Holiness the Sakya Trizin focuses on giving the details about the 4NT.
Various websites of temples/centres/organisations in the Sakya tradition also shows scheduling of talks on the 4NT/N8FP or provides explanations of these concepts, this includes:
- Sakya Monastery, headed by His Holiness Jigdal Dagchen Sakya, a lineage holder of the Sakya tradition (http://www.sakya.org/specialevents/514-dharma-lecture-four-noble-truths.html)
- The Sakya Tsechen Ling Institute, founded by Khenchen Lama Sherab Gyaltsen Amipa (http://sakyatsechenling.pagespro-orange.fr/)
- Temple of All-Encompassing Great Compassion which is the U.S. Seat of His Holiness Sakya Trizin (http://www.sakyatemple.org/activities_coming.php)
- The Tibetan Buddhist Society of Canberra, one of the most established Buddhist centres in Australia aligned with the Sakya tradition and under the patronage of His Holiness Sakya Trizin and His late Eminence Chogye Trichen Rinpoche (http://www.sakya.com.au/lifeofbuddha/)
- Drogmi Buddhist Institute founded by Khenpo Ngawang Dhamchoe (http://www.drogmi.org/docs/The_Wisdom_Age_Issue_3.pdf)
- Sakya Tenphel Ling in Singapore, under patronage of HH Sakya Trizin (http://www.sakyatenphelling.org/doc/RelatedThreeVisionsTeachings.pdf)
There are much much more but the above should be sufficient for these present purposes.
And where it may well be the case that all or any tradition in abstract and in theory follows a certain curriculum the practice may be substantially different.
So by a piece of irony, Thrangu Rinpoche was my second Kagyu Teacher. I first received teachings from him in the seventies and have attended a number of summer camps taught by him in the UK and the USA as well as visiting his monastery in Nepal, and I have NEVER heard him even mention the 8FP...and this is the crux of the matter Dzogchen/Maha-ati is not posited on Theravada practices, although those practices form the academic underpinning for the later developments, but no student is expected to work their way through those practices. The background is there for those who are interested in the history of the ideas. I have no doubt that Thrangu Rinpoches knowledge of the history of the basic Hinayana teachings and their influence on later Vajrayana practice is profound as is his wealth of learning in general. But that does not form part of his Maha-ati teaching with his initiated students.
I have no agenda and no reason to lie.
I suggest @karmablues that you join Vajracakra.com and garner views among the actual practitioners concerning these and other issues.
NB As I have said before Dzogchen is NOT an exclusively Nyingma practice. Some of its greatest teachers have been drawn from the Kagyu. Including the current Dzogchen Rinpoche.
As to the Sakyapa you might try contacting the Dechen Organisation and asking Lama Jampa ( Sakya Trizin's European Lineage holder ) and asking him directly if he teaches the 4NT or 8FP in any formal or overt way.
But I suspect once more the views of those who actually follow the living tradition will be drowned by the opinions of those who read about them.
Its weird but funny to be lectured by someone outside of one's tradition as to the nature of what is taught to students of that tradition...
...idk...just asking...
...as for me...death and rebirth kind of became a non-issue...
...but fun to scare folks with....bwahahaahaaa
The link I provided above to Thrangu Rinpoche's teachings on 4NT and N8FP happens to be broken, so here is the correct one:
http://samyeling.org/index/four-noble-truths-and-noble-eightfold-path
That is a 7,500 word essay he wrote on the subject which I think shows the importance he places on the 4NT/N8FP. He also says clearly in the essay that the Theravadan teachings on the 4NT "provides the necessary foundation on which to build." He makes that point clear in the introduction section. In the conclusion to his essay he says that "The Four Noble Truths taught by the Buddha are very important."
In fact, Thrangu Rinpoche also authored a book called "The Life of the Buddha and the Four Noble Truths" published in 1999 by Namo Buddha Publications. It is made freely available here:
http://www.dharma-media.org/media/kagyu/karma/thrangurinpoche/4_Noble_Truths_nbp.pdf
There is also a DVD recording called "Four Noble Truths and the Four Immeasurables". It is available here: http://www.wisdom-books.com/ProductDetail.asp?PID=19183
This DVD features teachings in the 4NT given by Tai Situ Rinpoche at Sherab Ling, in India in 2003 during the week of his 5th birthday celebration. The title of Tai Situ is considered to be one of the highest ranking reincarnated lamas of the Karma Kagyu lineage.
Also there is book called "Dzogchen Teachings" by Chögyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche, a tulku of the great Dzogchen teacher, Adzom Drugpa. In that book he says the following: Regarding Lama Jampa's teachings, well, since he is the student of HH Sakya Trizin who is the Supreme Head of the Sakya Tradition, wouldn't what the latter teaches be a more authoritative source? And as I said, HH Sakya Trizin said that it "was essential to master" the Buddha's teachings on the 4NT/N8FP. In an article published in Melody of Dharma, HH Sakya Trizin has also said this: Regarding HH Sakya Trizin's book called "Freeing the Heart and Mind: Introduction to the Buddhist Path", the focus of his introductory chapter was to explain in detail the 4NT. The book is described as "the first volume in a course of study for students of the Sakya tradition."
And I want to make clear that I have no intention of lecturing anyone about their own tradition. This is a forum for sharing ideas and information. If you look at this post and my previous post, you will see that I have mostly relied on quotes of respected teachers within the traditions and links to resources of websites within the traditions. Therefore, it is for those reading my posts on this topic to make what they want to of the quotes and material provided. As someone from outside the tradition, my literal interpretation of the material shows that a lot of importance is given to 4NT/N8FP. However, perhaps someone within the tradition would have a different context with which to understand these quotes and material and would come to a different conclusion. I have no problem with that.
But the topic here is rebirth. How interesting, given past history on NB, that we're quibbling over these other details, rather than raging over rebirth, lol! ...whatever. :-/ Carry on.
:coffee:
If you doubt that go to vajracakra.com, or if that is too esoteric Dharma Wheel, and set up a poll asking the members to indicate if they have received any overt form teaching on the 8fp or 4nt from their Vajrayana Guru...if you do this rather than simply repeating the universality of these subjects on NB. And
If the results show more than say 30%... no 20%, of the Vajrayana students have received such teachings I guarantee that I will donate £100 to a charity of the pollster's choice.
( And those that have will be Gelugpa.)
I am confident that my cheque book will remain untroubled.