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Why would an illusory self, who's existence depends on the concept of self & other, embrace their end through enlightenment? & Can you ask another why they are not yet enlightened, without this question becoming a fundamental misdirection of what enlightenment is?
the 1st stage to enlightenment is stream-entry. ie. you have no doubts about the path to enlightenment.
lobster, i will make a baseless assumption that you still have many doubts.
I cant speak for anyone else. And lord knows I wouldn't want to. But I have no doubt at all that 'stream entry ' and all the rest of the 'Arya ' status indicators are fictions that crept into the Buddha's Dharma 600 hundred years after his death. As has been pointed out before, stream winner , once returner, etc etc are like the Rosettes handed out at your local horse and dog show...........*
the 1st stage to enlightenment is stream-entry. ie. you have no doubts about the path to enlightenment.
lobster, i will make a baseless assumption that you still have many doubts.
I cant speak for anyone else. And lord knows I wouldn't want to. But I have no doubt at all that 'stream entry ' and all the rest of the 'Arya ' status indicators are fictions that crept into the Buddha's Dharma 600 hundred years after his death. As has been pointed out before, stream winner , once returner, etc etc are like the Rosettes handed out at your local horse and dog show...........*
Do you know that I am NOT a renowned Buddhist Scholar. ?.
Just by being awake in the present moment, we can be enlightened now and not worry about becoming enlightened. In the words of Ajahn Sumedho: "It is not about doing something now to become enlightened in the future. This is totally wrong. This kind of thinking is bound up with self and time. Be awake now; be enlightened to the present moment."
Which of course Ajahn Amaro ( Abbott of Amaravati ) has taken to its logical conclusion and become a Dzogchen practitioner.
This is interesting. I know that he is close with Ven. Tsoknyi Rinpoche, the son of Tulku Ugyen Rinpoch, who is said to be a great Dzogchen master. They have held a joint meditation retreat together. In one of his books (called Small Boat, Great Mountain), Ajahn Amaro outlines several similarities between the Thai forest tradition and Dzogchen. So I wonder whether he considers himself a Dzogchen practioner or merely just doing some practices of the forest tradition which happens to resemble Dzogchen practices. Or has he taken up studies under a Dzogchen teacher now? It would be odd if he did that while still being the abbot of Amaravati though.
I don't think he sees Dzogchen practice in terms of a role. From what I gather from a conversation with him and from others who have had conversations with him he sees it as a logical extension to his previous practice. I think he has taken up formal studies with a teacher. I don't think he sees that as being a problem in terms of his abbot role. But then of course the Forest Sangha is not traditional in may ways...and is evolving constantly.
the 1st stage to enlightenment is stream-entry. ie. you have no doubts about the path to enlightenment.
lobster, i will make a baseless assumption that you still have many doubts.
I cant speak for anyone else. And lord knows I wouldn't want to. But I have no doubt at all that 'stream entry ' and all the rest of the 'Arya ' status indicators are fictions that crept into the Buddha's Dharma 600 hundred years after his death. As has been pointed out before, stream winner , once returner, etc etc are like the Rosettes handed out at your local horse and dog show...........*
Do you know that I am NOT a renowned Buddhist Scholar. ?.
Just to be plain..of course I am not a Buddhist scholar..renowned or otherwise. But a number of people who are, including the very renowned Guenther, ( I will find the references sometime if anyone is interested ) are of the view that the ' Aryan ' material to do with Stream Winners, Once Returners etc etc etc is a later interpolation possibly dating from Buddhaghosa et al. Certainly from the very first time I encountered such ideas they struck me as mechanistic and did not ring true. But they certainly provide much ammunition for wishful thinking and delusional systems.
Can you ask another why they are not yet enlightened, without this question becoming a fundamental misdirection of what enlightenment is?
You can certainly ask it of those who know what it is, know what is not, decide who is and who is not, what is progress, what is not etc. You can certainly ask them, 'if this is the way to the Buddhas awakening, why are you not awake?' Just as the bald hair restorer salesmen is asked the obvious question . . . The misdirection is the blind leading the blind.
As for the enlightened, no need to ask them anything . . . they have a tendency to know what to do, how, when and with who.
Can you ask another why they are not yet enlightened, without this question becoming a fundamental misdirection of what enlightenment is?
You can certainly ask it of those who know what it is, know what is not, decide who is and who is not, what is progress, what is not etc. You can certainly ask them, 'if this is the way to the Buddhas awakening, why are you not awake?' Just as the bald hair restorer salesmen is asked the obvious question . . . The misdirection is the blind leading the blind.
As for the enlightened, no need to ask them anything . . . they have a tendency to know what to do, how, when and with who.
:wave:
So the OP is a trick question. A gag. To put folks in a box.
I don't think he sees Dzogchen practice in terms of a role. From what I gather from a conversation with him and from others who have had conversations with him he sees it as a logical extension to his previous practice. I think he has taken up formal studies with a teacher. I don't think he sees that as being a problem in terms of his abbot role. But then of course the Forest Sangha is not traditional in may ways...and is evolving constantly.
When the Western monks were with Ajahn Chah in Thailand they tended to do almost everything in accordance with the Thai way of doing things. Ajahn Sumedho recalled that as a novice monk he refused to wash the feet of the senior monks saying he thought it was stupid and only serves to boost the ego of the senior monks. Eventually he did overcome his aversion to this feet washing custom. Nonetheless I suspect at Amaravati they probably have done away with this tradition. In Thailand, of course, this practice is still commonplace.
While there were some notable reformist personalities within the Thai forest tradition such as Ajahn Buddhadasa, I would say that the Forest Sangha in Thailand taken as a community is still very traditional but I can imagine the one in the West being more liberal especially when the latter's actions would not be constrained by a more conservative lay community as in Thailand. Basically, if Amaravati was in Thailand and Ajahn Amaro decided to formally take up studies with a Dzogchen master while still remaining the abbot, I would imagine that it would cause quite a stir in the Thai lay community as well as among the various Thai monastic communities within Ajahn Chah's lineage itself. Anyways, it's great that different circumstances in the UK allows more room for things to evolve.
Indeed. And the process of evolution started some time ago within the Forest Tradition in the UK. The second Abbot of Chithurst , Ajahn Anando, was also involved in Dzogchen and developed a close link with a group of Soto Zen monks. To quote Ajahn Chah's now well known saying. ' It was necessary for the Dhamma to come west and then be reimported to Asia reborn. '
Indeed. And the process of evolution started some time ago within the Forest Tradition in the UK. The second Abbot of Chithurst , Ajahn Anando, was also involved in Dzogchen and developed a close link with a group of Soto Zen monks. To quote Ajahn Chah's now well known saying. ' It was necessary for the Dhamma to come west and then be reimported to Asia reborn. '
There seems to be a lot of good karmic connections between the schools of Buddhism being sown in the West. The Abhayagiri Monastery in the lineage of Ajahn Chah in the US where Ajahn Amaro was a co-abbot was initially built on 120 acres of land donated by Ven. Hsuan Hua, a Chan Buddhist master.
It will be interesting to see the flower that will come out of the cross-pollination of the various schools. The West seems to be fertile ground for this. For example, the Insight Meditation Society in the US which focuses on Theravada vipassana methods holds retreats jointly taught by Theravadan and Dzogchen teachers. Joan Halifax's Zen Center holds retreats jointly taught by Theravadan, Zen and Dzogchen teachers. Sharon Salzberg holds metta meditation retreats based on the Theravadan method in Dzogchen Beara in Ireland and Lerab Ling in France, both of which are Dzogchen retreat centers.
Joseph Goldstein saw the potential for this kind of evolution of Buddhism in the West which inspired him to write "One Dharma: The Emerging Western Buddhism". In its preface, the Dalai Lama said:
....[Joseph Goldstein] is an example of a new kind of Buddhist that we find in the West these days. Rather than holding tightly to a single tradition, he has studied with an array of teachers, integrating aspectsof several Buddhist lineages into his practice. There are historical precedents for such an approach. Buddhism has often been reinvigorated when a new synthesis has been created from existing traditions.
Comments
Why aren't you enlightened?
Why would an illusory self, who's existence depends on the concept of self & other, embrace their end through enlightenment?
&
Can you ask another why they are not yet enlightened, without this question becoming a fundamental misdirection of what enlightenment is?
I think he has taken up formal studies with a teacher.
I don't think he sees that as being a problem in terms of his abbot role.
But then of course the Forest Sangha is not traditional in may ways...and is evolving constantly.
Certainly from the very first time I encountered such ideas they struck me as mechanistic and did not ring true. But they certainly provide much ammunition for wishful thinking and delusional systems.
You can certainly ask them, 'if this is the way to the Buddhas awakening, why are you not awake?' Just as the bald hair restorer salesmen is asked the obvious question . . .
The misdirection is the blind leading the blind.
As for the enlightened, no need to ask them anything . . . they have a tendency to know what to do, how, when and with who.
:wave:
You can certainly ask them, 'if this is the way to the Buddhas awakening, why are you not awake?' Just as the bald hair restorer salesmen is asked the obvious question . . .
The misdirection is the blind leading the blind.
As for the enlightened, no need to ask them anything . . . they have a tendency to know what to do, how, when and with who.
:wave:
So the OP is a trick question. A gag. To put folks in a box.
While there were some notable reformist personalities within the Thai forest tradition such as Ajahn Buddhadasa, I would say that the Forest Sangha in Thailand taken as a community is still very traditional but I can imagine the one in the West being more liberal especially when the latter's actions would not be constrained by a more conservative lay community as in Thailand. Basically, if Amaravati was in Thailand and Ajahn Amaro decided to formally take up studies with a Dzogchen master while still remaining the abbot, I would imagine that it would cause quite a stir in the Thai lay community as well as among the various Thai monastic communities within Ajahn Chah's lineage itself. Anyways, it's great that different circumstances in the UK allows more room for things to evolve.
To quote Ajahn Chah's now well known saying.
' It was necessary for the Dhamma to come west and then be reimported to Asia reborn. '
must continue the practice
investigation Dhamma with Mindfulness and the Wisdom gain at the stream entry
It will be interesting to see the flower that will come out of the cross-pollination of the various schools. The West seems to be fertile ground for this. For example, the Insight Meditation Society in the US which focuses on Theravada vipassana methods holds retreats jointly taught by Theravadan and Dzogchen teachers. Joan Halifax's Zen Center holds retreats jointly taught by Theravadan, Zen and Dzogchen teachers. Sharon Salzberg holds metta meditation retreats based on the Theravadan method in Dzogchen Beara in Ireland and Lerab Ling in France, both of which are Dzogchen retreat centers.
Joseph Goldstein saw the potential for this kind of evolution of Buddhism in the West which inspired him to write "One Dharma: The Emerging Western Buddhism". In its preface, the Dalai Lama said: