Is the west slowly coming round to seeing the truth about Israel?

hermitwin

Jews were horribly slaughtered by Hitler.
But what the Jews are doing to the palestinians is cruel.

hermitwin

sorry, wrong video, should be this one.

Nirvana

WOW!

An incredible 68 minutes!

This was a revelation to me, and it does indeed make belief in the old myths of 1947 and 1967 seem unfounded.

Thanks for sharing this, Hermitwin!

I admire the man's faith in humanity and in the future that our youth will help usher in.

vinlyn

Interesting that there is only one truth (as in "the truth") about Israel, when in reality it is a very complex situation both in terms of history and the present.

hermitwin

given that this guy is an Israeli, he has Credibility.

but let us stop for a moment, and look at how
people live inside Israel vs the conditions
at West Bank and Gaza.
It sure as hell give you an idea of who has the power.

vinlyn said:

Interesting that there is only one truth (as in "the truth") about Israel, when in reality it is a very complex situation both in terms of history and the present.

vinlyn

My point is very simple, and it's a point about many issues that are brought up on this forum. It's (whatever the issue is) rarely as simple as people like to think or pretend. In fact if "it" was simple, we wouldn't be posting about it.

This controversy over the Israelis and the West Bank is so simple that no one has made any real progress on it over more than half a century. That's how simple it is. And frankly, although I have a great deal of sympathy for the Palestinians, next to Israel, they're their own worst enemies. What's the old saying -- if you always do what you always did, you'll always get what you always got.

hermitwin

did you even bother to watch the video?

vinlyn said:

My point is very simple, and it's a point about many issues that are brought up on this forum. It's (whatever the issue is) rarely as simple as people like to think or pretend. In fact if "it" was simple, we wouldn't be posting about it.

This controversy over the Israelis and the West Bank is so simple that no one has made any real progress on it over more than half a century. That's how simple it is. And frankly, although I have a great deal of sympathy for the Palestinians, next to Israel, they're their own worst enemies. What's the old saying -- if you always do what you always did, you'll always get what you always got.

vinlyn

Did you even bother to read what I wrote?

I'm not even taking sides. I'm just saying that it's not a simple problem. It's extremely complex, rooted in religion and history and international politics.

Does the Israeli have credibility? Sure. Do people with different perspectives have credibility? Yes, they do, too.

hermitwin

well, you should at least see what the guy has to say.

if you choose to make comments without
even bothering to watch the video, which is what this thread is about,
then, all i have to say is, cheers, have a pleasant day.

vinlyn

How many videos over half a century does a person have to watch before having an opinion that the Palestinians are being treated very unfairly, and that before that the Israelis were being treated very unfairly?

You actually opened with a 2 sentence statement which I agree with. You then posted a video from the biggest political nut in the United States. And another video that last well over an hour. You ask a lot.

Kundo

As a Jew I will refrain from commenting on this, as I can't without being offensive to the OP in some way.

Kundo

vinlyn said:

Interesting that there is only one truth (as in "the truth") about Israel, when in reality it is a very complex situation both in terms of history and the present.

I will make this one comment though - I would recommend that before judging the Israelis, one picks up a history book and read about the Romans occupying Samaria and Judah circa 130CE and who the people they called Phillistines (Philistia) actually were. Also please take note that Palestine was an annexed British state when Palestine and Israel were founded....... Britain voted on behalf of their annexed state when founding both current nations.....

oceancaldera207

hermitwin said:

But what the Jews are doing to the palestinians is cruel.

Yeah but its hard to get intl. support when your militia is lobbing rockets into civilian areas bro. Vinlyns exactly right.. they are their own worst enemies, and clearly it has always been very complicated.

betaboy

oceancaldera207 said:

hermitwin said:

But what the Jews are doing to the palestinians is cruel.

Yeah but its hard to get intl. support when your militia is lobbing rockets into civilian areas bro. Vinlyns exactly right.. they are their own worst enemies, and clearly it has always been very complicated.

You can't compare that with the systematic genocide/oppression of the Palestinian people.

vinlyn

The statement you responded doesn't compare the two things. Each brings out different aspects of a large and complex issue.

While I can agree with the oppression aspect, I have a difficult time seeing the treatment of the Palestinians as being genocide to any more a degree than there has been an attitude among Arab peoples about genocide toward the Israelis. In fact, many Arab people and Arab leaders have outright stated the intention to eliminate the Israelis from the face of the earth.

Jason

As with most things of this nature, the situation isn't necessarily as simplistic or as one-sided as it's often made out to be; and it's hard to find unbiased reporting on the decades-long conflict.

I will say, however, that the mainstream media coverage I've seen here in the US, particularly during Israeli offensives, mainly (but no always) seems to focus on Israel's right to defend itself from homemade rocket attacks than the complicated reality, which also includes the role Israeli policies have negatively impacted the growth of the Palestinian economy, from its blockade of Gaza (an area smaller than Portland, OR, with twice the population) via its almost complete control over Gaza's borders, airspace, and territorial waters to its occupation of the West Bank, replete with over 500 roadblocks and checkpoints obstructing Palestinian movement.

And rarely do they ever seem to consider what rights the Palestinians have, essentially ignoring the crisis Palestinians have been facing for decades, a situation so dire that former president Jimmy Carter likened it to South African apartheid. Gaza is more like a giant, open-aired prison than a state.

They also seem to do their best to avoid talking about the civilian casualties on the Palestinian side and glossing over the arguably provocative acts of the IDF, instead focusing on 'militant' casualties and the homemade rockets coming out of Gaza instead of the Israeli's state of the art weapons going in, which I think is partly because it matches the US's 'War on Terror' motif of evil terrorists vs. noble nation-state. People don't want the complicated truth; they want good guys vs. bad guys.

That said, I agree that the Palestinians, or at least a certain section of the population, are basically their own worst enemy when they fire rockets indiscriminately into Israel. Even though I see these attacks as acts of desperation that do relatively little damage, they do kill innocent people. Moreover, it makes them look bad in the international media, as well as provokes retaliations by Israel, who obviously have the upper hand militarily. But as much sympathy as I have for Israel and Jewish people in general, who have experienced their fair share of suffering, I think the suffering and misery experienced by the entire civilian population of Gaza is appalling and agree with John Ging, former director of operations for the refugee agency UNRWA in Gaza, that it's "creating fertile ground for the extremists."

Personally, I don't think the violence will peaceably end until the US puts serious pressure on Israel to loosen its chokehold of Gaza and the West Bank and negotiate a one-state solution seeing as how I don't think a two-state solution will work given the history and logic of settler states.

Unfortunately, both sides seem equally as stubborn, and I doubt either will be willing to back down from their hardlined positions any time soon.

vinlyn

Very well written, Jason.

Kundo

betaboy said:

You can't compare that with the systematic genocide/oppression of the Palestinian people.

Do you DELIBERATELY make posts here that are incendiary? I've perused a lot of your posts and you always seem to be either trolling or trying to stir things up. I take umbrage at this "genocide" accusation. Try living in Israel with regular shelling and attacks that the media don't or simply won't report. Yes I'm Jewish, yes I hate the fact that both sides are fighting over a small strip of land that has been there for eons and will still be there after they are dead and gone (as long as someone doesn't nuke it).

As was mentioned above, the Palestinians can't continue to attack constantly and then cry poor me. Who provides utilities for ALL residents in Gaza? Israel. Who provides medical services for ALL residents in Gaza? Israel. Which of the two allows members who are both Israeli Jews, Palestinian Muslims and other non- Jews to serve in their government in official capacities? Israel. During the last conflict in Gaza, who took both Israelis and Palestinians into their hospital for care free of charge? Israel

It's really easy for us to sit in our offices or houses and not have to worry about being attacked when we walk outside and point a finger of blame at another country based only on what the media chooses to report.

I suggest @betaboy you try reading media from outside the local ones of your location and not the conspiracy theory sites. Jerusalem Post and Al-Jazeera are a good start.

Now, I'm going to take a small break from here because I don't need to get pissed off by someone I don't know, trolling on a forum.

oceancaldera207

Oh man @dhammachick don't leave because because of a Israel/Palestine thread... We all know where this discussion goes.. as for me, I only opened this thread for entertainment purposes only. :orange:

hermitwin

personally, i think dhammachick finds it hard
to criticise Israel because she is a jew.

and that is understandable.

dhammachick said:

betaboy said:

You can't compare that with the systematic genocide/oppression of the Palestinian people.

Do you DELIBERATELY make posts here that are incendiary? I've perused a lot of your posts and you always seem to be either trolling or trying to stir things up. I take umbrage at this "genocide" accusation. Try living in Israel with regular shelling and attacks that the media don't or simply won't report. Yes I'm Jewish, yes I hate the fact that both sides are fighting over a small strip of land that has been there for eons and will still be there after they are dead and gone (as long as someone doesn't nuke it).

As was mentioned above, the Palestinians can't continue to attack constantly and then cry poor me. Who provides utilities for ALL residents in Gaza? Israel. Who provides medical services for ALL residents in Gaza? Israel. Which of the two allows members who are both Israeli Jews, Palestinian Muslims and other non- Jews to serve in their government in official capacities? Israel. During the last conflict in Gaza, who took both Israelis and Palestinians into their hospital for care free of charge? Israel

It's really easy for us to sit in our offices or houses and not have to worry about being attacked when we walk outside and point a finger of blame at another country based only on what the media chooses to report.

I suggest @betaboy you try reading media from outside the local ones of your location and not the conspiracy theory sites. Jerusalem Post and Al-Jazeera are a good start.

Now, I'm going to take a small break from here because I don't need to get pissed off by someone I don't know, trolling on a forum.

hermitwin

I think we need to separate the policies of
the Israel from the jewish people.

I dont like the state of Israel because of its actions.
but I dont dislike jewish people.

zenff

hermitwin said:

personally, i think dhammachick finds it hard
to criticise Israel because she is a jew.

and that is understandable.

I think this is a personal attack; not a response to a comment.

vinlyn

hermitwin said:

I think we need to separate the policies of
the Israel from the jewish people.

I dont like the state of Israel because of its actions.
but I dont dislike jewish people.

Nonsense.

I'm an American, but I have no difficulty singling out my nation for criticism in any number of areas.

I'm a Buddhist/Christian, but I have no difficulty singling out either of those religions for criticism, where deserved.

hermitwin

Dear vinlyn,

have a pleasant day, cheers.

betaboy

zenff said:

hermitwin said:

personally, i think dhammachick finds it hard
to criticise Israel because she is a jew.

and that is understandable.

I think this is a personal attack; not a response to a comment.

hardly. Dhammachjck repeatedly referred to herself as a jew, defend Israel - it is a logical conclusion rather than a personal attack.

zenff

Dhammachick made substantive comments like this:

I take umbrage at this "genocide" accusation. Try living in Israel with regular shelling and attacks that the media don't or simply won't report. Yes I'm Jewish, yes I hate the fact that both sides are fighting over a small strip of land that has been there for eons and will still be there after they are dead and gone (as long as someone doesn't nuke it).

As was mentioned above, the Palestinians can't continue to attack constantly and then cry poor me. Who provides utilities for ALL residents in Gaza? Israel. Who provides medical services for ALL residents in Gaza? Israel. Which of the two allows members who are both Israeli Jews, Palestinian Muslims and other non- Jews to serve in their government in official capacities? Israel. During the last conflict in Gaza, who took both Israelis and Palestinians into their hospital for care free of charge? Israel

It's really easy for us to sit in our offices or houses and not have to worry about being attacked when we walk outside and point a finger of blame at another country based only on what the media chooses to report.

Just ignoring that content and saying that this is simply the comment of a Jew who finds it hard to criticize Israel because she is a Jew is a personal attack.
How would you respond if these comments came from me?

maarten

I think Israel has the right to defend itself, but I cannot see how they can justify the deliberate destruction of water wells, the cutting down of olive trees, or the illegal (according to international law) building a security wall where they could have easily been built it on non-disputed parts of Israel. It seems that the fact that a group of militant palestinians is shooting rockets at them is taken by Israel as a free pass to disregard the human rights of all palestinians, and that just seems absurd to me.

oceancaldera207

maarten said:

I think Israel has the right to defend itself, but I cannot see how they can justify the deliberate destruction of water wells, the cutting down of olive trees, or the illegal (according to international law) building a security wall where they could have easily been built it on non-disputed parts of Israel. It seems that the fact that a group of militant palestinians is shooting rockets at them is taken by Israel as a free pass to disregard the human rights of all palestinians, and that just seems absurd to me.

It's not justifiable; but Palestine is never going to get serious western support as long as Hamas is its voice. The western world will never defend a group that suicide bombs and rockets civilians...and they're not real big on avoiding racism either.
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_suicide_attacks
Like others in this thread have said, it goes both ways, it's not simple.

Nirvana

It's often hard to sit down and cool off and see the difference between a personal remark and a personal attack. Of course, for some, both are out of order, which is understandable due to personality differences and cultural ingrainings.

It would sure be nice if we didn't let ourselves get so hot under the collar and just have the ability to let things go awhile —until there's a bit more distance for a better sizing-up of what's really going on.

I feel that overmuch "speculation" fwoabw of where people are coming from tends to shut free speech down. Freedom of people to speak the truth as they find it in their hearts should not be abridged in a free society. Mistaken speech will happen and it is to be hoped that we will be able peaceably to rise above it and improve our perspectives.

This whole Israeli/Palestinian "problem" is mind-boggling anyhow. If people (such as ourselves) not even involved in the day-to-day issues over there can't handle it, then neither are we competent to discuss what's going on in the Levant responsibly, either.

Nirvana

It's really quite refreshing to me to note that the moderators have made this thread unbumpable. It just got to be too unfriendly.

It's just a fact that things speak differently to different people, so why should we let ourselves get so flustered? In a way we aren't even seeing the same things in the first place: We are seeing different aspects of these things. I'd rather be dead wrong most of the time and have a few good friends than be spot-on most of the time and have none.

For me, personally, when people start displaying a haughty, superior attitude and start trying to shame me, I feel like they're basically saying, "Just Shut Up." That shuts down communication or any true representation of that.

One thing I have noticed in most people is that they don't really listen to what you're saying, in the first place. They are confined to their own mental space (mentality), capable really of only hearing their own thoughts and pre-made mental fabrications as you are speaking. Therefore, you cannot convey your perspective to them, anyhow. Every place, institution, and lineage has a mentality in which it is pretty much stuck and only the rare individual can transcend that mentality —but only to certain degrees and in certain areas. Even the buddhas and the christs were limited in some respects to their culture's preconceptions.

Again, I applaud the moderators for their actions in pigeonholing this thread.